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FAQs on Freshwater Stingray Systems

Question about freshwater stingrays 11/6/08
Hi I am new to this site and I had a question. I have two freshwater stingray and a Arowana in a 75 gallon grow out tank with a hydro filter and two penguin bio-wheel 350s. I have had one ray for 4 months the other for 2 1/2 months and the Arowana for about a month. I have noticed odd behavior by the rays they are breathing faster than usual, just sitting upright on the side of the tank and trying to jump out of the tank and they have never acted like this before. The one ray will eat blackworms and chopped night crawlers and the other will only eat blackworms. I have tested the water a bunch on time the ammonia is 0 the nitrates and nitrites are 0 and the ph is 6.5. I do 50 % water changes every 2 weeks. I was just wonder what might cause this weird behavior and the rapid breathing. Thank you in advance. Amber
<Hello Amber. Your tank is too small and too poorly filtered for Stingrays, and what you're seeing are general signs of stress. These are indications that it's time to move them to their next aquarium. Even if the only fish you had was an Arowana, the tank would be too small and inadequately filtered. Depending on the Stingray species you have, you'll need at tank at least 90 cm wide from front to back and 200 cm in length from left to right. (The width of the tank should be at least 1.5 times the maximum width of the "disc" of the Stingray species in question; since the common species are 60 cm in disc size, 90 cm is a good baseline width.) Depth isn't critical. Filtration needs to be a serious external canister filter. Hang-on-the-back filters have little value in serious freshwater fishkeeping; they're really only suited to small community tank species. You need something with lots of space for biological media, and offering water turnover 8-10 times the volume of the tank in turnover per hour. So if you use a 200 gallon tank, the minimum for a Stingray, your filter (or more likely, pair or trio of canister filters) will need to be rated at 1200 to 2000 gallons per hour. There's no getting around this fact: Stingray aquaria are insanely expensive to set up. People who try to economize end up with dead Stingrays. Many books on the topic now available; I'd heartily encourage you track down one or two of these at your local library or bookstore. Cheers, Neale.>

Potamotrygon motoro, Can an adult (in the home aquarium) reach 24"? 9/29/08
<45 cm/18" is more typical, but bigger specimens far from unheard of.>
If not how big? Is that nose to tail tip or left disc to right disc?
<It's the size of the disc; so any aquarium intended for this species should be at least twice that wide. In other words, the minimum front to back width of the aquarium will need to be 90 cm/36".>
So would a 18" or a 24" wide tank be no good for the life of this fish?
<Absolutely not.>
If not, besides a small round pool how wide of a tank would be enough?
<When planning around Stingrays, the golden rules are that [a] the tank be at least twice as wide from front to back as the Stingray's maximum disc size; and [b] that the length of the tank be as much as possible, and certainly not less than 180 cm/6'. There is ABSOLUTELY no point using smaller tanks; Stingrays grow rapidly when healthy, and if kept in a too-small aquarium quickly end up dead anyway. So either do it right, or don't do it at all. There's no middle ground. This is one reason I haven't been tempted to keep these beautiful fish: they are VERY EXPENSIVE to maintain, both in terms of aquarium size and the enormous amounts of reverse-osmosis water you need to do their water changes.>
I've been told they do get that big and I've been told they don't, same with the tank widths. Thank you for time and any advice.
<There are several good books on Stingrays out there: I strongly suggest you spend the $10-20 on one of them before doing ANYTHING else. I happen to like 'Jurassic Fishes' (which covers a whole bunch of primitive fish as well) but it's been out of print (and largely superseded) by lots of other books as well.>
Thanks Matt
<Cheers, Neale.>

Stingray issue 7/22/07
Hi there,
My question is about my fw stingray. I currently am housing 3 fw stingrays, 2 Motoros and one reticulata (teacup). Motoros are 12 in and 6 in and teacup is 6 inches . I have had them for about a year in a 265 gal with a large Pacu and 14 in silver arowana. As of late the smaller Motoro has been swimming above where the air bubble wand and filter outtake meet. Its def out of character for her. I am using a fluval fx5, an emperor BioWheel and Eheim canister for filtration. One of her eyes seems cloudy and closing. I lost the first ray I had a year ago and he showed some similar signs. Ammonia 0 nitrate 0 ph 6.0.
Temp about 82. I feed rays jumbo night crawlers I get from bait shop and once in a while feeder goldfish but not to much. I added Pimafix. She also has a little red around her mouth. The swimming funny really has me thinking somethings up. She eats and has not lost any weight. Any helpful hints. I would really appreciate any help your site is the best. Oh and substrate is sand very easy on them.
<Greetings. As you probably realize, freshwater stingrays are exceptionally difficult fish that are only suitable for very advanced, highly experienced fishkeepers. When it comes to disease, the problems are that [a] we don't really have a textbook list of stingray diseases yet and [b] many of the medications safe with bony fish are dangerous to cartilaginous fish. Now, as a general rule, when fish swim into the filter current it is usually because this is where the water quality is highest and the oxygen concentration highest. Likewise, when fish show red patches on this skin (signs of irritation) then again, water quality is something to think about. In your case, you need to be reviewing a variety of things. Ammonia and nitrite obviously (you say the former is 0, but how regularly do you test it? try testing over a week and at different times of the day, especially shortly after feeding). Nitrate needs to be as close to zero as possible, which you say is the case. But water chemistry is also important. Stingrays aren't that fussed about pH and hardness, but they are bothered by changes. So if you're manipulating your water supply to get the low pH and hardness levels you have, check to see you're being consistent. Another issue is air or water pollution: it's easy for things like paint vapours and tobacco smoke to end up in the aquarium, and these will irritate/poison the fish. Yet another issue is filter turnover. For a stingray, I'd recommend not less than 8x the volume of the tank in turnover per hour (i.e., marine quality filtration and twice that for regular small community fish like guppies and tetras). Given your aquarium is 265 gallons, that means you need filtration around 2120 gallons per hour, minimum. Your Fluval delivers about 600 gallons per hour, the Emperor 280 gallons per hour, and the Eheim I don't know how much because you don't say the model. But it needs to be *at least* 1240 gallons per hour to even make the baseline your stingrays need. Since even a really big Eheim like the Professional 3 is only producing a "mere" 450 US gallons per hour turnover, your tank is very likely (almost certainly) under-filtered. Some more general advice. Melafix and Pimafix are largely useless as treatments. While they sometimes work for some people under some conditions, they're too inconsistent to be relied on, and therefore of no value with expensive fishes like yours. Another problem is diet. Stingrays feed on a variety of animals in the wild including small fish, but never Cyprinidae. The nearest Cyprinidae are hundreds if not thousands of miles away from where they live. Why do I mention that? Because Cyprinidae -- things like goldfish and minnows -- have high quantities of Thiaminase that breaks down Vitamin B1 over time. They also contain a lot of fat. Fish that eat them in the wild, like pike, presumably are adapted to this, but most other predatory fish do not seem to be, and long term both these issues cause damage. Bob Fenner has written at length on the issue of feeder goldfish and marine predators like Lionfish. Since your stingray is, basically, a marine fish that happens to be living in freshwater because it got trapped on the wrong side of a newborn mountain range, your stingray likely will react the same way to a high fat, high thiaminase diet as any other marine predator (i.e., poorly). On top of this, feeder fish are the Number 1 best way to introduce parasites and bacteria into your nice clean stingray aquarium. To be honest, whoever advised you to feed cheap "parasite time bombs", sorry, feeder goldfish, to something as delicate and easy to kill as a stingray deserves to spend some quality time on the Naughty Spot. The ideal foods for stingrays are either terrestrial foods (like earthworms), marine foods (like mussels and prawns), or "clean" frozen foods (like bloodworms and lancefish). All these will be safe because they have no chance of introducing parasites or bacteria into the aquarium likely to harm a freshwater stingray. Over here in the UK, live estuarine river shrimp are widely used with success and these match very closely the preferred staple diet of freshwater stingrays in the wild: large crustaceans. As you realize, stingrays have teeth adapted not for catch fish but for crushing shells. Finally, the whole sand issue in aquaria for stingrays is debated endlessly. There's some good evidence that dirty sand can trap bacteria and cause infections. This has been observed on catfish barbels for years (erroneously put down by some people to "sharp" gravel wearing the barbels down). Catfish generally shrug off such infections and re-grow their barbels when conditions improve, catfish being, fundamentally, very hardy animals usually adapted to swamps and other horrid environments. Stingrays do not have this level of robustness. So double check the sand is spotlessly clean. You should be stirring it weekly and siphoning out any detritus. Many stingray keepers prefer to keep their rays in tanks without sand to side-step this issue. Finally, do check the fish aren't able to burn themselves. It is *extremely* common for stingrays to burn themselves against the heater. The heater should be either inside the filter or covered with a plastic mesh of some kind (called "guards" and these often come with the better heaters anyway). Hope this helps! Cheers, Neale.>

Stingray and tank tops – 06/04/07
Hi WWM Crew,
<Hello there Lauren>
My Motoro stingray is a very active girl. She loves to go up and down the walls of the tank and splashing around at the top, but I'm very concerned she may climb too high and out of the tank with all of the splashing she's doing (sometimes comes half way out of the tank above the edge.) Is there any negatives against getting the glass tops for the tank or do you have any other suggestions that will work?
Thanks,
Lauren
<An ideal Ray system would have a large volume, including a gap/air-space above to allow for such natural behavior... while disallowing the animal to come to harm... It is a good idea to at least consider the ramifications of physical injury from sharp edges, burns and more from lighting... that might occur here... and possibly retrofit a cover/barrier of sorts. Bob Fenner>

FW teacup Stingrays 5/19/07
Hello
<Hi there>
My two new stingrays are kicking up a lot of sand, which is having the affect of clouding up the water and settling down on my rocks as if it snowed in my aquarium.
<Mmm, yes...>
I've invested is two filters one is a Wet/Dry the other a Rena Canister and added a UV sterilizer to combat any parasites and other junk from the sand kicked up from these rays. Would a sand filter help in keeping the tank clearer - and a more important question, what negative impact will the sand have on my filters?
<... good question... Could severely restrict nitrification... though not likely an issue with the use of the wet-dry... You do need more mechanical, particulate filtration... And possibly a re-visiting of substrate choices...>
Thank You for your help,
Aydan Savaser
<You have read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwstingrays.htm
and the linked files above? Bob Fenner>

Freshwater stingrays getting body slime (water cloudy) 3/28/07
first here's info on the stingray tank:
INITIAL TANK SET UP: 125 gallon tank installed on December 15, 2006 with RO water and smooth/fine gravel. Added BioSpira and the following day added around 20 small African Cichlids to cycle tank.
<Mmm, mistake... I encourage folks NOT to cycle with livestock... for a few good reasons: Principally the very real chance for introducing pathogens (disease, parasitic organisms). Secondly, the production of fright chemicals there from... And lastly, because it's unnecessary to the tanks development and stress to the life involved...>
One month later: Low PH = 6.0; Ammonia = 0; Nitrite = 0; Nitrate = 0
More set up info: 175 gal wet/dry filter, Mag Drive Water Pump 1200 gph, dual T5 Light Fixtures, black magic 12x12 carbon pad, white/blue filter pad, 8W UV sterilizer, 2 ChemiPure, two 250W heaters (hidden)
<Good note>
set at 82.5 degrees, RO Unit for water changes/top off.
<Mmm, the low pH... what was the start? What does your alkalinity test/s show?>
Added air bubbles at the back of the tank wall on 3/16 using a Rena Air 400 pump and added 2 plastic plants to hide the tubes. No other decorations in the tank.
LIVESTOCK: Removed Cichlids. Added 2 Potamotrygon Motoro Rays (4" and 6") on Monday, Feb 5, 2007. Rays were very active and eating. Added 4" Silver Arowana on March 12. Arowana hardly ate.
<Typical... and a bit hard to train to do so in such a large system>
MAINTENANCE INFO: I do a 25% water change (30 gal) weekly. I also add 30 ml RO Right and 5 ml Prime during water change (RO water is aged in a 40 gal bucket at 82.5 degrees to match the main tank water). I add 60 ml Waste Control weekly to tank.

I clean filters and all pads (replace when nec..).
<And only do "about half" of these at any given maintenance interval... To preserve nitrifying et al. useful microbial activity>
Water was perfect until March 21 when the ammonia reached 2
<More than deadly toxic>
and nitrates 40.
<Danger... this is way too high, by at least double... your bio-filtration, perhaps circulation are inadequate...>
PH is still 6.0 and nitrites 0.
Performed 20% water change on 3/21 with 25 ml RO Right and 10 ml Prime.
Performed 25% water change on 3/24 with 60 ml of Amquel Plus & Novaqua Plus + 30 ml RO Right.
The tank seemed cloudy after the 3/24 water change.
<Not good. Likely bacterial... rather than just chemical, physical... From? Excess food? Inadequate circulation, filtration?>
Performed another 25% water change with the same additives (60 ml Amquel Plus & Novaqua Plus + 30 ml RO Right) on 3/26. Ammonia went down to 1 <Very dangerous... needs to be zip, zero, nada>
and nitrates to 10 but water is still cloudy.
On 3/27, water is still cloudy and the stingrays are less active with body slime. I performed a 35 gallon water change on 3/27 with 30 ml RO Right and went back to using 12.5 ml Prime. Rays are a little better but the water is still cloudy hours later.
Did I do something wrong by changing from Prime to Amquel Plus and Novaqua Plus?
<Mmm, no... but if it were mine, I would not add any of these water conditioners... period. You're using RO water? It has no sanitizer, excess metal et al. in it to remove...>
This stingray tank is at my work and my boss was overfeeding the ray a variety of frozen silver sides, prawns, blood worms, krill, shrimp which caused the ammonia and nitrate spike. I instructed him to lessen the feedings to 2 very light feedings a day (recently did not feed the stingrays Sat thru Mon). The arowana started as a picky eater and we tried live crickets and feeder fish which also might of caused the ammonia and nitrates to go up. We will no longer feed live foods.
<Mmm, or move this Bony Tongue fish for a few months into a smaller system, where it will be easier to train to take offered foods... This IS what I would do>
What can I do to fix the situation? How can I clear up the cloudy water?
<First, stop with the water conditioners, over-feeding... look to (GET AND USE) BioSpira to boost your nitrification, rid the system of measurable ammonia)... LOOK INTO and GET more biofiltration... perhaps a nice large Eheim canister filter... packed with their bio-media... See WWM re... a nice one-time investment...>
Should I add Melafix and/or Pimafix for the body slime/fungus?
<No... these are worthless "Melaleuca Leaf" extracts... that will do more likely harm here than good... You don't want to forestall nitrification any more...>
Am I doing too many water changes and/or adding the wrong additives (RO Right, Prime vs. Amquel+/Novaqua+)?
THANK YOU IN ADVANCE!
- Michael
<Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwestcycling.htm
and the linked files above... And I take it you have read my article on Potamotrygonids archived on the site, and our FAQs files on FW rays. Bob Fenner>

Re: freshwater stingrays getting body slime (water cloudy) 3/28/07
Thank you for replying.
<Welcome>
I have "Bacter Boost" a Marc Weiss product. I used this in my home tank back in Sept 2005 and kept it refrigerated since then (I don't see an expiration date on the bottle).

Can I use this product or should I just buy BioSpira?
<Only the Marineland product is endorsed (oh, obviously by me) here>
For the product you recommend, do I add directly to the sump or in the tank?
<Directly to the sump is best>
Should I continue 25% water changes to remove the ammonia or just use Bacter Boost or BioSpira to increase the beneficial bacteria?
<Please see WWM re... there is a not too fine line between the benefits of such dilutions versus the stultifying effects on nitrification, other stress caused therein>
Are the bioballs in my 175 gal wet/dry not enough where I need to get an additional canister filter?

Thank you again.
I'll start reading your article while I await your answer.
<Real good my friend. Life to you. Bob Fenner>

P. orbignyi compatibility with Redtail Catfish?... A large S. Am. Ray and VERY large Catfish... in a 29?! Need to read... 02/17/07
Hi,
<Kev... we'll skip the epaulettes>
I currently have a 29 gallon tank with a 6 inch Redtail Catfish and a few small fish that are there just to take up a little space.
<?...>
I can assure you that I have no plan on putting any size ray in a tank that small. I will be buying a all-glass 210 gallon tank(72Lx24Wx29H) within 2 months.
<Oh. This will still be too small in time>
I will be running 2 Fluval FX5's and sand for substrate.
<I'd use other... posted...>
I read that the P. orbignyi and the Redtail Cats are both native to the Orinoce river Basin.
<With spelling improvement, yes>
 That leads me to believe that they are compatible.
<In terms of water quality at least>
Here's my question. Would it be advisable to house these animals together?
<Mmm, not really>
From what I read, my tank will be large enough and I don't think that the filtration will be a problem.
<Will be inadequate>
I already feed my Redtail Cat bloodworms, feeders and ghost shrimp (at least 10 in the tank at all times).
<The feeders are an exceedingly poor idea... see WWM re>
Lastly, where can I find the stingray. Price doesn't really matter. I'm just looking for a baby. I've tried to find them online and I haven't seen them in any local pet stores.
Thanx, Kevin from Az
<Go to the Internet, Go to the Internet... Bob Fenner>

Sand For A Ray Tank 11/01/06
Hi, I have a few questions that I can't find in the Q&A section. I am getting a few fresh water rays and bought some sand for substrate. I was told to put the sand in a bucket and overflow the bucket to clean the sand. Well I did this and poured the sand into the tank and have an absolute mess now. The water is FULL of loose sand and floating on top of the tank. Question, how do you prepare sand properly before putting it into the aquarium?
< Take the sand and place some in a bucket until the bucket is half full. Turn on the garden hose about 1/2 way and force the end of the hose to the bottom of the bucket several times in several places. Organics and dust will be forced to the surface. Repeat until the water flows clear.>
The mess that I have already created, How do I fix it?
< Take a large fine screened net and run it through the tank several times to collect the larger items floating in the tank. Let the tank stand for a while until the fine dust settles out. Then gravel vac the fines out of the sand.>
Also, I have a bio filter and a sponge filter. Will the sand work with these filters?
<The type of substrate has no effect on these filters.>
Seems that the sand would be hard on the impellers or clog the filter.
< Please follow my recommendations to remove the material described above. A sponge prefilter used for power heads would prevent these things from damaging the impellor.>
If so what should I do in order to prevent this from happening? Sorry for asking so much but Am sickened by the site of my aquarium and need a little help at this point. Always had gravel never dealt with sand, But think it would be the best choice for a ray so they can burry themselves. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks...Alan
< Sand is best but not all sand is created equal. For creature that inhabit sand they need a sand that is non-abrasives to their skin. Sand blasting sand is very cheap but when you look at very closely you can see that the individual sand grains are subangular and have very sharp points on them. This makes them ideal for sand blasting but no so good for aquarium fish. The sharp edges scratch the fish and cause infections. Look for sand that is small and well rounded like beach sand.-Chuck>

Re: My Motoros ... sys. 9/9/06
Hey Bob Brian again, Last wrote to you on 8/15/06.
Just giving an update my Motoros are doing great with no problems they are still behaving normal. I took your advice and lowered the ph to 6.8 from 7.5 and this did not affect the rays and the temp is being kept at about 82. I could not get them to accept the frozen foods so after some research I found a Black Worm dealer in New Jersey that ships and those rays are lovin those black worms. They are also still eating the red wigglers. Only a couple questions for you this evening. I feed the rays twice daily once in the a.m. and once in the p.m. is this too much?
<Mmm, should be fine>
They eat everything in under 15 min. Is it true that live worms used as a primary food source is unhealthy in a sense of introducing disease in to the aquarium and rays.
<Mmm, not nowadays... with "blackworms" being cultured... not like "the bad old days" (still present in some places/cases) with "poop" derived, collected tubificids>
Second is it difficult to build a custom aquarium that would be large enough to house these rays for there maximum potential size.
<Mmm, no. Not IMO>
I have room in home to build a very very large aquarium, what it be made of?
<... liner... or wood... plastic... fiberglass... block/cement?... perhaps with some glass or acrylic viewing panels>
Or would it be easier just to have some or company custom build me one.
<If money is "no object"...>
Also what size and dimensions would you recommend?
<As big as possible and practical>
 I have a 24 x 36 foot room in my basement that is empty with a concrete floor that does not get any water and walls/ ceiling are dry walled. Thanks for the help hope I am not too much of pain but as I all ways say you guys are great. Brian
<Mmmm, get some bids... and read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/ca/cav1i1/pondDIYCalfo/diy-pond.htm
and the linked files at the bottom. Bob Fenner>

Stingray mega system - 09/07/06
<Hey Dan you are in luck, I've kept some stingrays and have some experiences to share with you.> After seeing all the great advice on your site, I thought I might tap your brains as well with a few questions on my mega large, stingray system. I have been in the saltwater hobby for almost 10 years, currently running 3 other tanks, so I know the basics, but this is my first go-round with stingrays. After seeing something at a LFS, I decided to build my own "lagoon". The display tank (not counting the filter) is Approx. 1,200 gallons, in the lower level of my house, with a pond liner. It is roughly 8 foot by 8 foot and 2.5 feet deep. It is filled with a 1-2 inch
deep sand bed made of sugar sized Aragamax, and has a small (30-40 lbs.) pile of live rock in the center. It is now time to stock the system. My questions are these:
-Should I be worried about the pond liner (40 mil typical outdoor pond liner) being punctured by the stingrays' spines/barbs when they swim around? <Based on my experiences no. Stingrays aren't usually aggressive unless they are provoked. Meaning they don't go around with their rays ready to puncture all the time.>
-I would like to house a variety of stingrays in there, and after doing the research it seems that, in a system this size, I would be able to put 3-5 rays in there total. Could I maybe do a Bluespot or two, maybe a California round or two as well? I know Bluespots are difficult to keep, but due to the size of my system, I think many of the problems most folks encounter will be overcome. <My friend kept Bluespots without any troubles. I believe that the major thing with them is that they need to be shipped in healthy and from a reputable dealer. But I don't think you are going to be able to keep Bluespots and California species together because Bluespots need a warmer water tank than the California rays.>
-Finally, in a system this size, do you see any problem with adding a big fish or two (like a grouper, something that will not generally pick at rays)? <You possibly could add some fish but let me warn you RAYS ARE HUNGRY and will eat and or attack lots and lots of other fish and devour them pretty quickly. Especially, in my experience, the blue dots.>
Thanks in advance for the advice, and the past advice to others cautioning them to treat these animals for what they are: living creatures who need to be cared for, not merely a "thing" to be had. <If it was me I would plan on trying to keep a pair of stingrays and I would put any other fish you planned on keeping in first and letting them get establish. Let the system stabilize and get settled as well. Realize that stingrays like other predatory fish are going to produce a tremendous amount of waste and that you'll need to plan your filtration to accommodate them. Realize that most stingrays are going to be larger animals and that's going to require special equipment for changing things in the tank. Realize that you aren't going to want to reach your hand in the tank for many reasons. Figure out other options for cleaning. Bless Steve Irwin's soul, but these animals do have the potential to kill so keep that in mind as you choose what to do in this system. Hope this helps and if you have any more questions just let me know. Good luck, MacL>

Info on T cup stingray
Hi,
I'm considering purchasing a freshwater stingray. Could you give some information on these beautiful animals? I currently have a 50 gallon community tank with Bala sharks, tetras, ghost catfish, a Cory, and 2 Plecos. Thanks
Jeff Lawson
<Thanks for the prompting... Wrote a review of this group (the family Potamotrygonidae... I'll place this article and the accompanying images on the www.WetWebMedia.com site later today (or tomorrow when I move off this FAQ onto the new (to be made) FAQs pages on FW Stingrays...
These South Americans can be gotten and kept... but most get pretty big for captive use... and a fifty is small... and it will be eating your other fishes... Bob Fenner>

Stingray
Hi..!
I have a freshwater stingray a laticeps one as far as I know, it was OK but yesterday night I saw him upside down, as soon as I saw I took it on the right way and push a little bit by hand in order to have flow on his gills, immediately responded..! My question is: Is it normal to happen or there is something to do about? is similar reaction like happen with sharks? Best regards. Carlos Gorgon
<it sounds peculiar and perhaps unhealthy. Can you confirm that dissolved oxygen is high enough? Is the tank large enough too (minimum 90 gallon for a juvenile... much larger for adult. Sand bottom is sugar fine and there are no visible sores on undersize? Do research the archives here on WWM for pertinent articles and FAQs to lend insight. Kindly, Anthony>

Re: Stingray, II (Oxygen Level)
Thanks, how should I confirm that dissolved oxygen is high enough?
<There are test kits by various manufacturers made to test oxygen levels. Look around the various online sites for them. -Steven Pro>
Best regards. Attn. Carlos Gorgon

Stingray, FW, test kit units of measure
Hi..!
I have three freshwater stingrays, I tested the water before put them in, reading form ammonia and nitrites were low but on your site are referred to ## ppm but I have a scale of mg/ltr so which is the right amount of nitrites in mg/ltr for this stingrays ( teacup )
<The units of measure, milligrams per liter and parts per million are equivalents... the same. The concentration you want is 0.00, none for nitrites, ammonia... and as little measurable nitrate as possible. Please see here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fwstingrays.htm and the links beyond.
Bob Fenner>
Best regards.
Attn. Carlos Gorgon

Two questions
First of all thanks for your last advice and fast response, I will get the PH and nitrite tests.
1) I have a Gymnothorax polyuranodon (freshwater eel) and some times he changes color to a pale one but just happened twice during a month and later he has its original color, is this normal or what could be happening? is eating well, as I see during everyday observation is quite good.
<This is normal... seems to have more to do with "mood" than water quality, other external influences... Not necessarily an indication of trouble>
2) I will get a freshwater stingray soon but I can't find written thinks online about injuries caused by the sting and envenomation, what should I do in case of envenomation or being touch by it sting ( accidentally, of course I will take care of this everyday).
<Please take a read through the Freshwater Stingray article: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fwstingrays.htm
and Injury piece: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/Wound.htm
and we'll be chatting. Bob Fenner>
Best regards.
Attn. Carlos Gorgon

Freshwater Stingray... FW
Bob,
Thank for the info regarding fw porcupine puffer. I will ask the LFS to clarify the species. Another question. fw stingray. I saw these fishes at another LFS. Can it co-existence with fw moray eel?

Does it need brackish environment or just freshwater? What steps to follow to pick the right stingray?
<Oh, obviously you aren't familiar with WWM. Please see here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwstingrays.htm
Bob Fenner>

Arowana and Ray Biotope Tank
Hi,
I'm setting up a 225 gallon Arowana tank with Rays.
<Even though 225 gallons in rather large, it is still a rather small tank in comparison to the fish you selected. I do not think you could safely stock more than two of each.>
I would like to use a few live plants to make them a little more comfortable.

If I am only using a few plants how much fluorite should be used

and what kind of plants.
<Perhaps you could grow some Java Fern attached to something. There would be little danger in it becoming up rooted.>
Thanks, Dave
<Good luck! -Steven Pro>

Re: Arowana and Ray Biotope Tank
Thanks for the info and the 225 is only for 2 years until we build our dome home where there new tank will be the circumference of 30' by 3' wide 4' tall with a main tank connected at one end 10' x 4' x 4'
<Wow! Truly impressive concept. Do send us pictures when done. -Steven Pro>

Questions re freshwater stingrays
I have just read your article on freshwater rays and found it very interesting.
I would like to keep one my self but was wondering if my tank is suitable, it is 8 foot wide 2 foot top to bottom and 18 inches back to front.
The motoro is the one I like and I need to verify that it only gets a maximum 14" wide disc.
Also could you suggest suitable tankmates for this species.
Thanks for your time and I look forward to hearing from you.
Yours Matt Milburn.
<This size, shape tank should work out very well. I've seen displays with many types of fishes kept with freshwater rays, including peaceful, slow-moving fishes like angels and discus, and even shoals of small South American tetras (Characoids) of many types. I do encourage you to delve into the popular (and possibly scientific) literature on the habitat and distribution of the species you're interested and definitely select for a "biotopic" presentation (physical, chemical and social/biological make-up mimicking their natural environs). Bob Fenner>

Sand for FW stingrays? (10/19/03)
Hi,
<Hi! Ananda here tonight>
I have had a hard time finding sand substrate for Fresh water stingrays. Right now it is bare bottomed. I know it has to be silica free sand. It also can't raise the Ph of my tank. I called some companies that make play sand. They all have silica in the sand just not in a free dust form. I read about silver sand on a UK website but no one states has heard about it. What do you recommend.
<Not silver sand. It's silvery due to mica, which could scratch the ray's stomach. You will probably need to look for sand from a specialist fish store. You might also check with some of the companies that package sand for aquarium use, and have your local shop order some for you (since the companies are unlikely to sell directly to hobbyists).>
thanks,
john
<Sorry I couldn't be of more help! --Ananda>

Tea Cup Stingray
Thanks gage, I will do it. Actually I'm curious, are the tea cup rays very hard to keep and what can they be put with if anything?
<Tea Cup Rays are difficult to keep, they require excellent water quality, 0 ammonia 0 nitrite, and next to 0 nitrate, they are very sensitive. They also need a large tank a 4'x4' foot print would be as small as I would go, the height is not as important. Tank mates would need to be moderately large and stay high in the tank. There is a book by Richard Ross on freshwater Sting Rays. -Gage>

Freshwater Stingrays and Substrate
Hello Crew,
<Hello Reader.>
I've been reading up on FW stingrays and have noticed most people seem to be trying to keep FW rays in large, rectangular aquariums on a sand substrate. I'm wondering if they can be kept in a smooth (no sand), round, PLASTIC stock tank.
<The trend of having them with a sandy substrate is for the aesthetic look for the aquarium owner as much as it is for the stingrays themselves. It's true that these rays natural environment is for them to burrow into the sand and hide. But, many of the large aquariums have barren bottoms on their ray tanks. In fact, the last three I visited that had feeding/petting Marine ray tanks had no sand at all.)
I've got a 500+ gallon, 8 foot round one that I use as a turtle pond. The double thick walls help to insulate it and it is easy to drill and plumb. It was also cheap-----$240 .
<I'm very jealous! that is quite an impressive find, and would love to have something like that for any one of my fish!>
Can one of these be used for a ray tank? (The 6 foot round will roll through a doorway and into a house.)
<I have seen these tanks used for shark tanks, and of course for Koi and Goldfish tanks. I believe that this tank could be used for a ray tank. Provided that you do offer the ray places to hide. Be it large pieces of driftwood, or large make shift shelves that the rays could hide beneath. You know that you can purchase a large amount of tropical play sand from your local hardware store (or Home Depot, Lowe's, etc...). Enough to at least offer some sand on the bottom for the fish.>
I know that a traditional tank would make viewing much easier, but that big of a tank (300 gallons) is very heavy to move, very expensive, and requires an expensive stand.
<When dealing with Stingrays, one of the best ways to view these animals is from the top! It's like watching Frisbees or dinner plates swim, seeing them from the side is still interesting, but the larger viewable surface is looking down on them. As for a 300 Gallon tank you could build your own to save on money. there are many sites online that show people building 1000 gallon tanks into walls (with three sides being solid, and one large glass/Plexi window to view from). In fact I recently gave a fish to a man who built a 650 and 750 gallon tank in his basement using info he found online. Though, they are more of a permanent fixture thus making them not moveable, but it can be less expensive if you build one yourself.>
With the prices of the more vividly colored FW rays as high as they are, I'd rather buy more space for less money and get better filtration with the savings. Would a stock tank work?
<Considering I have seen this used at many aquariums around the world to hold their Stingrays then I do believe that this will work for you as well. You might want to visit some Stingray message forums and see if anyone has suggestions.>
Would a totally bare tank (no sand at all) be too stressful for a ray?
<Totally bare yes it would be stressful, but if you sink other objects in there for the fish to hide under (like a make shift shelf, and lots of driftwood and plants) then I could see a stingray being okay. The tank I'm envisioning can not be viewed from the sides... so the stingrays won't see you unless you are over the top of them. So, in actuality they will be quite secure and less stressed since they can't see outside the tank.>
Could a sunken tray of smooth sand be used if needed?
<The sand will be spread out of the tray in no time, but I do think that this is an option that you should keep open. I've never seen it done, but it might work great for your rays, and offer them another area to feel secure.>
Could drift wood with java fern and moss be used to aquascape or would it scrape the ray?
<Rays scrape against all that stuff in the wild and it doesn't bother them. Provided you don't have any extremely pointy pieces, or sharp areas then it should be fine. Check the wood over and sand off any areas that look dangerous.>
Thank you for your time, Tam Jones
<No problem, and I hope the tank works out for you. Look online for Stingray forums and see what others are saying. You might learn a great deal from them as well. Also, if you are going to have a tank that large only viewable from the top you might want to invest in a mask and snorkel! Good luck. -Magnus>

Indoor Pond filtration? 7/29/04
Hello, I really appreciate all the great advice you have given me!! I am now facing the next dilemma. I have purchased 2 Rubbermaid Agricultural 300 gallon stock tanks. I intend to use them side by side in my basement to keep freshwater Stingrays.
<Neat>
I am at a loss as to what to use for filters. I know these fish demand excellent water, and am prepared to do lots of water changes with RO/DI water. What type of filters should I run? I have heard these fish very sensitive to nitrates. Too bad they are freshwater instead of marine or I could just use live rock. What is the answer for nitrate reduction in freshwater besides water changes?
<Good questions... the "real" or "best" answers to nitrate accumulation are likely "person specific" (actually worse, I'm susceptible to offering a very variations myself!). Low stocking density, careful feeding would get mentioned of course... the use of "in-sump" or in tank vascular plants, deep sand beds (same sort of approach as marine DSBs) would certainly work... water changes, perhaps occasional use of chemical filtrants should be cited... More volume ties in with the idea of low stocking density... Okay, I would tie in another Rubbermaid container if it'll fit, use it to grow lots of rapid-growing, floating (maybe some above like Ceratopteris spp. and submerged... Myriophyllum, Egeria...?) plants, a deep sand bed there (five or more inches) and not count on the same areas in the tubs with the rays (as they will stir these up continuously)... get, use large (as you can afford) canister filters (my favs are Eheim brand) and stock them with their media and basically forget them (they won't require much service)... get yet another Rubbermaid container to collect likely reverse osmosis water (or other pre-prepared water you intend to use for water changes) and be very diligent in making BIG (like 25% or more) weekly water changes... stock up on nitrate test kit reagents and check these once a week... And see what develops. Bob Fenner>

Freshwater ray, automated water changes
Hello, I've been reading through your site and find it very insightful.
I've been reading about the freshwater rays for a couple months now, wanting to try them but thinking I did not have the time or money to put into one.
My fiancé recently bought me a surprise...a male P. hystrix! Being it was a surprise, I didn't have very much time to prepare, and it seems my friends and family didn't have much of an idea of what these fish require before they bought him for me. Well, for the time being he is in a 55 gallon tank, peacefully living with an Oscar and eating well. the Oscar, though, is horribly messy, and I'm having to do 75% water changes every week to keep his water conditions under control. I have the materials to build an 8x6x1 foot pond for him, but cannot set it up until I move out of my current residence (my landlord won't allow it). I'm moving out July of next year, so in the time being I have to figure out how to keep my ray healthy. I have some time off work, and was thinking about trying to build a continuous water changing device for my tank. My water is the right quality (soft, neutral to acidic). I want to drill a hole in the back of the tank for the overflow, then use airline tubing connected to a bathroom sink with a sprayer nozzle on the end. I've never had a problem with chlorine before, sometimes even being as bold as to put water straight from the tap in with my hardier fishes.
<Be aware that municipalities do not continuously administer the same concentration (generally chloramine, not chlorine) and that you may well "get caught" by their pulsing sanitizer>
In your opinion, would the sprayer nozzle be enough to evaporate the chlorine?
<No, but you could use a contactor of sorts... chemicals that would absorb...>
 As a side note, my pond will have a large, 3x3 foot viewing pain on the surface, kind of like a big snorkel mask, I'll also plant two kinds of tropical water lily around the outside to give my ray a sense of security. Could you give me any helpful hints and criticisms before I put money into these projects? thanks!
Jon
<What specifically are you looking for? I would not go ahead with your continuous water changer as you describe it... too risky, and the chance to siphon/gravel wash the present system would be lost... keep changing the water manually, twice a week if necessary, and look into more filtration, circulation. Bob Fenner>

Freshwater Stingrays, Plants, Substrates.... - 10/21/2005
Hey crew, I was just wondering about freshwater stingrays and live plants. In some of your info it talks about those two working together. I was just wondering wouldn't the f/w stingray knock them down?
<Mm, were I to keep the two together, I would probably stick with plants that can be rooted on wood (Anubias sp., Microsorium pteropus / java fern, Vesicularia dubyana/java moss....). Thus I could keep the substrate mostly clear and open for the rays.>
Also I use fluorite for my plants instead of gravel. Is that ok for the stingray?
<Oh, no. No, not at all.>
Or should I put a layer of fine sand down on top of the fluorite for the stingray?
<Due to the tendency of smaller, lighter particles to "settle" and larger, heavier particles to be displaced and come to the top, this will not help.... A tank with a substrate of fluorite would be fatal to a stingray.... literally.>
Most importantly will my live plants be safe from harm's way

due to the fact that the stingray lacks a gas bladder and once in motion... stays in motion?
<If you stick with plants that can be rooted on wood, or use terra cotta pots for other plants like swords, etc., plants would do excellently. The ray absolutely requires a non-abrasive substrate and a great deal of open space. Keep this in mind if you choose to consider a ray. Wishing you well, -Sabrina>

Freshwater Stingrays (Sand?, Filters?, and Heaters?) - 2/28/2006
Guys,
<And gals...>
First of all, thanks for your feedback reference my earlier correspondence questioning Freshwater Stingrays. I have decided to increase my filtration to maintain the water quality in the approximately 180-Gallon tank. Have you heard anything good/bad/indifferent with regards to the new Fluval FX5 Canister Filter?
<Mmm, no... but this line has been greatly improved over the years... used to be junk... had a few "pop-apart" many years back>
They claim that it will pump approximately 925 GPH and maintain a tank of approximately 400 US Gallons???
<Mmm, an over-estimate... akin to the U.S. gov't rating of automobile mileage... once the media is a bit dirty/clogged... I would count on about half this capacity/flow.>
My intention is to purchase this filter and add an existing Fluval 404 filled just with BioMax for Biological Filtration (and maybe ammonia reducer)?
<Hopefully... these rays are quite massive... and do produce a good deal of nitrogenous waste... and "don't like it"...>
I have also purchased a large UV Sterilizer that will be added to the tank to control pathogens and algae. I still don't know what direction to go
with the sand bottom. I have read that Estes Ultra Reef Sand and Calci Sand are good selections.
<Yes... something fine, non-angular (not silicate based)>
What do you guys think? Will 100lbs. of sand be adequate for a 1" thick base on tank dimensions of 7ft. x 2ft. x 2ft.? On more question, I am desperately looking for an inline heater
(or two), but cannot find one that will not affect the throughput of the Fluval FX5 Filter.
<Not likely... I would add a "closed loop" external recirculation system here... and use the dedicated pump here to drive the water through the in-line heater... OR place these heaters in an external sump, and use this arrangement of pumping. Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/pbh2oret.htm
and the linked files above...>
 The filter's input and output hoses are approximately 1" in diameter and the only inline filter that I have found (Hydor) offers a 5/8" connection which would limit the flow of water.
<Mmm, and these pumps are not engineered to have any/more resistance. Again, I would not use them to move water through anything else, including your proposed UV>
I have purchased online a fiberglass aquarium background that resembles real sandstone and do not want to hide it with heaters, pumps, etc.
<These are really neat... gorgeous>
As always, I greatly appreciate your feedback and value your opinions.
Regards,
Steven W. Smith Jr.
<Thank you for writing, sharing. Bob Fenner>

Was Stocking a Brackish Tank, now Potamotrygonids 2/24/06
Ouch...
looks like that archer tank won't happen until I get a massive tank. I do want to have at least 6 or so, so until I can afford a 300 gallon or
something of the like...
Anyhoo, I guess I'll just stick with freshwater for now. Imagine what I could put in 100 gallons! A small school of piranhas...freshwater stingrays
(juvenile, of course) etc... anyways, I won't get ahead of myself. Just wondering about reticulated stingrays - do they need a fine sand substrate,
gravel, or bare bottom tanks?
<Please see here: http://wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwstingrays.htm
Finer is better>
My LFS recently got in some teacup reticulated stingrays - 79 bucks (a pretty good deal here in Canada). My guess would be
a 200 gallon tank minimum for a full grown adult?
<Something like this>
I just think rays are really awesome, and would like to look into them soon. I am willing to do 20% water changes every other day, and I think discus would make suitable tankmates (same water parameters, water changes, etc.). By the way, I asked about the 2000 gallon shark tank... apparently, they only do top-ups!
Incredible. I've somewhat lost respect for them, though, after finding that they were keeping two white tip and one black tip reef shark in this small
tank, along with some kind of bamboo or epaulette shark. Thanks,
-Eddy
<Be chatting, reading. Bob Fenner>

Freshwater Stingrays and the perfect environment? - 2/4/2006
WWM Crew,
<Steven>
First of all, thanks in advance for your help. I am in the process (well, the contractors are in the process) of refinishing my basement.
I intend on adding a Freshwater Stingray tank into my plans and have ordered a custom tank to be built (72" x 28" x 20") (approximately
180-gallons). This tank will be built into the wall in the Pool Room (I am hoping the calming effects of the aquarium help my Pool game:- )).
<Heee! Hope no one scratches in the direction of the tank!>
 I have had Motoro Rays in the past and been quite successful with managing their higher maintenance requirements, but I wanted to make sure that I
was on the right track with this design. I will probably purchase two 4"-6" freshwater rays (1- Potamotrygon henlei & 1- Potamotrygon motoro).
Do you feel as though the tank will support them comfortably?
<At least for a while, yes. Would be better in something larger...>
Also, I have little experience with a sand-bottom tank, but want to have the right substrate for their health. Can you recommend a specific type of
gravel that would be safe for me to use?
<Fine, river sand... something roundish, not too alkaline...>
Or should I research sand more closely? My concern with sand is the cleaning process?
<Mmm, just rinse in 10-15 pound samples... in running water... in a plastic (pickle) bucket... with a garden hose and your hand... till the water runs clear>
Also, I planned on 3 x Fluval 404 Canister Filters for filtration. I always like to err on the side of too much filtration vs. not enough. What do you guys think?
<Should work... though if it were me, I'd fit a refugium/sump on here, with RDP lighting, live plants, a DSB... and one or two canister filters. Oh, and make sure I'd have plenty of stored, soft/er, warm make-up water for changes positioned nearby... an R.O.? Bob Fenner>
Best Regards,
Steve

F/W Stingray Questions 6/20/06
Hello folks got a couple of questions concerning F/W Tea Cup Stingrays. I have been researching these rays for quite some time and I have found a few
gray areas if you know what I mean. First I was told a minimum tank size was 25 gallon. I have a 75 gallon.
<... at least three times their likely maximum size, at least twice this in width...>
 Second I was told a Tea Cup is almost impossible to keep in an aquarium with long lasting success.
<Mmm, not so>
 I have raised Salt Water Blue Dot stingrays in a 180 gallon tank with much success( just shy of 4 years and going strong only lost one of 2). Third do these rays like
aggressive water movement( 1 magnum 350 canister, and penguin 330 or 350 dual bio- wheel) and how about oxygenation would a air pump be advised.
<Do need high DO, not necessarily tremendous water agitation>
Fourth tank mates I was told rays should be kept with rays and no other tank mates.
<Can be easily kept with other biotopic livestock... hailing from same micro-habitat is best>
Fifth this tank was set up for African cichlids (fish are in new tank and doing well) but my question is can I bring my ph down and do a fifty percent water change and leave the current filter media in there to cycle the tank with the new sand or should I just tear it all down clean it well and just start from scratch.
<... likely a different substrate...>
The dealer I found told me that there rays are eating very well and healthy. My question is the rays are eating live black worms and raw shrimp is this nutritious enough for him.

 I am unable to get the ray for about 2-3 weeks because I am going to the florida to go diving with family and coworkers who are on my fire departments dive team so I am in no big hurry.
The stores name is That Fish That Pet Place in Lancaster Pa.
Check them out
the place is really cool. Check them out at _www.thatpetplace.com_
(http://www.thatpetplace.com)
<Know this business well. Fine folks. Knowledgeable and honest>
Hey thanks for the help and next time we speak I will send you some pictures of my blue dot I am currently at work don't got my camera.
Brian, York PA
<Do send along. And... you have seen our coverage of Potamotrygonids?: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwstingrays.htm
and the linked FAQs file above.
Bob Fenner>

How do you move a 10 inch freshwater stingray from one aquarium to another? 6/28/06
Query:
How do you safely move a 10 inch freshwater stingray from one aquarium to another?
Dave DuBois
<Best to scoop up/direct with a very large, soft net, into a suitably thick, large clear "fish" bag underwater, lift this whole thing up, leaving behind a good deal of the water (don't strain your back!). Bob Fenner>

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