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Neon Tetra with Ich and Pop/Cloudy
eyes 8/30/08
<Ave,>
I have a neon tetra with 1-2 spots of ich and pop and cloudy eyes.
<Treat promptly for Whitespot and Finrot/Fungus. Here in England I'd be using
eSHa 2000 and eSHa EXIT, medications for these complaints that are safe to use
together. In your country the range of options may be different.>
I can also see white extended patches on his body.
<Well, if this is Neon Tetra Disease (Pleistophora) there isn't much you can do,
but a combination Finrot/Fungus medication like eSHa 2000 would be if something
less else.>
The fish is pretty strong, eats normally, swims normally and does not rub
against rocks or plants. I isolated the fish in a hospital tank, but I'm
wondering how I should treat it. I bought Melafix and a remedy for ich,
<Melafix... largely useless.>
but I'm not sure which one I should use first. I'm also planning to buy food
with antibiotics so that I can treat the intestines too. What do you suggest?
Thank you,
Giuseppe
<Not a big fan of randomly treating for internal parasites unless there's
evidence the fish is genuinely sick from them, and that's very difficult to
judge. Antibiotics obviously have ZERO effect on the internal parasites that
aren't bacteria, such as Pleistophora (a protozoan) and Camallanus (a helminth)
so again, you need to know what you're dealing with rather than randomly pulling
stuff from the shelves and hoping for the best. Cheers, Neale.>
Tetras (Neons & cardinals) dying one
by one in the dark in a planted aq. 8/7/08
I hope you can help. Please forgive the length, but I wanted to give you
all the info I could think of.
<OK.>
30g L, been up for about 8 weeks (cycled with seed filter from friends
established tank), custom hood with AHsupply 96w CF bulb (3.2W/gal),
eco-complete substrate mixed with fine gravel. Fluval 205 filter. Stealth
100W heater.
<All sounds good.>
Tank has the following plants (most of which are thriving): Cabomba (2
bunches of 5 stems each), Moneywort (4 bunches of 3 stems each), Melon
Sword, Chain sword (just a baby), Microsword (2sq in patch), Ruffle plant,
Wisteria (just finally establishing its fine submerged leaves - 1 bunch of
3-4 stems), Broad Ludwigia (1 bunch of 3-4 stems), small Java fern, small
Anubias nana, and a large bunch (about 15-20 long stems) of Anacharis (from
a friends established tank). Sounds crowded, but you'd be surprised how open
it really still is.
<At least some get pretty big -- Echinodorus osiris for example will quickly
take over a 30 gallon tank if it thrives; mature plants can be 50 cm tall
and 30 cm across! Echinodorus martii likewise.>
To this there's the following fish: 5 spotted Corys, 6 otos, 3 "mystery"
snails, 6 zebra danios, and originally 8 each Neons and cardinal tetras.
<Right, well one issue here will be temperature. To wit, Neons prefer cool
water, 20-24 degrees C; Cardinals need warm water, 25-28 C. There's no
"happy medium" at which both can be expected to do perfectly well.
Corydoras, Otocinclus and Danios are also cool-tropical fish, and will
thrive at 20-24 C (I'd go for 22 C). But that's too low for the Cardinals.
So one way or another, at least some fish are going to be heat or cold
stressed.>
The light is on a timer to cycle 6 hours on in the morning, followed by a 3
hour off break mid afternoon, then another 6 hrs on in the evening. Then off
for the remaining 9hrs overnight.
<OK.>
All was well, the plants are thriving, the fish too.
<Good.>
Then I added the anacharis about 2 weeks ago. Suddenly I'm missing cardinals
and Neons overnight, just 1 or 2. at a time. Never noticed any trouble with
the actions/attitudes of the tank mates, everyone pretty much sticks to
their schools. But the losses continued. Everyone looked fine when the
lights are on... healthy, active, feeding. It was great. Well it's a great
mystery alright.
<Well, Neons and to a lesser extent Cardinals can be plagued with "Neon
Tetra Disease" and will drop off one by one until the cycle of infection is
broken. But it is also possible the new plants brought in a predator, such
as a Dragonfly nymph.>
I finally started watching closer at night and I found that after the lights
been off for about 90 minutes (+/- 15 minutes) I notice a gradual and
frightening change. Both the cardinals and Neons lose nearly all coloration
going nearly white/clear.
<Quite normal.>
Then one or two of them start going bonkers and lose their equilibrium
swimming upside down, backwards and on their sides, barrel-rolls, tumbling
end-over-end, etc., then death.
<That is odd.>
Turn the lights back on and gradually (within 20-40 minutes) all coloration
has returned and activity resumes normally.
<Ah, now, this is curious. Have you checked how pH is affected by
photosynthesis? When plants photosynthesise they remove CO2 from the water,
allowing the pH to rise. When they stop, CO2 accumulates and pH goes down.
Alternatively, some (but only the minority) can perform "biogenic
decalcification", and I believe Anacharis is one of them. What this means is
that they remove carbonate and bicarbonate from the water as the source of
carbon for photosynthesis instead of CO2. This is why these plants prefer
hard water. Anyway, in the process the water loses its carbonate hardness
and consequently its pH buffering capacity. The net result will be that pH
will drop while these plants are photosynthesising, and the water pH will
also become less stable with regard to other pH altering processes.>
My water parameters have been rock solid since the beginning: Nitrite 0;
Ammonia 0; Nitrate "nearly" 0; kH 5deg; GH 12deg; pH 7.6; chlor. 0. I've
even tested right before and after a light cycle and saw no appreciable
difference. Temp stays between 78.5 and 80.5F.
<Do check the pH and carbonate hardness through the day to test my
hypotheses above.>
My thought were CO2 poisoning - but the zero change to pH leads me to
believe the CO2 isn't reaching toxic levels. Second thought - The plants are
using up all the available O2 (I'm not aerating) at night thereby starving
the smaller, more sensitive tetras. So I added a small airstone to the
corner of the tank and set a small air pump to kick on when the lights go
out (my timer has day/night outlets). It didn't seem to help.
<Leave CO2 off for a few days and see what happens. Won't harm the plants.>
Last Saturday night was the worst, within 2-1/2 hours three tetras gone
(down to 6 now, 2 cardinals & 4 Neons left), and all the fish (except the 5
Corys, 2 largest danios, and 3 largest otos) were pale. Even with nighttime
aeration.
<Hmm...>
So as a stopgap measure I retooled the timer to cycle the light and dark to
3 hrs light, 2 hrs dark ('round the clock). Two nights of success now with
no casualties... but even though there is the requisite "amount" of light
and dark I cannot imagine the rapid time cycles are any good for either the
fish or plants long-term.
<It isn't good for the plants; they need a certain length of time simply too
start photosynthesising, and 3 hours won't be enough.>
My next attempt will be to get a larger air pump and drive an 18" bubble
wand across the back of the tank rather than the small airstone driven by
the smaller air pump. I know this will drive out more CO2 to the detriment
of the plants (though probably not too much), but it should eliminate the
worry of CO2 poisoning, and should add O2 in the dark for the plants and
fish to (hopefully) share. Also, I'll be raising the filter spout up closer
to the surface to provide a little more surface agitation (currently its
about 2in below with no agitation).
<Not sure this is the issue.>
Finally, since this all started after adding the fastest grower in the
largest number/mass plant-wise (the anacharis). It's possible that plant
addition might've pushed the balance over the edge with respect to CO2 and
O2 respiration. So I'll be pulling that out and trimming it back to a more
manageable (2-3 bunches of 4-5 "short" stems each) size.
<Hmm...>
Hopefully then I can gradually return to slowly extending the light/dark
cycles to a more natural rhythm and keep my fish healthy and my plants
growing.
Any thoughts? other suggestions? etc? Anything I missed?
Mark
<Cheers, Neale.>
Borrowing Trouble(d Neon
Tetras)...
...Or actually Purchased! 7/31/08
<Intriguing title>
Hi I have been using this site for years when a question I cannot
answer or am unsure of arises. However this is the first time I have
found the need to inquire for help. I have been keeping freshwater
fish for nearly eleven years. Started out breeding Fancy Yellow
Guppies for my LFS, then graduated to breeding Bettas. After years
(nearly six) of steady "work" tanks I decided to just have
"pleasure" tanks. I currently have a fully planted 40 gallon with 7
Juli Cory Cats, 13 Rummy Nose Tetras, and 9 Tiger Barbs. This tank
is great has been running for nearly three years with no problems.
So the trouble. I decided to get a smaller tank and purchase a
single Betta and just enjoy his beauty. I bought a 5 gallon eclipse
tank from craigslist that was, I quote "fully stocked". This tank
was Over Stocked. There are 9 Neon Tetras, 2 Juli Cory Cats (my
interest!) and a single female Guppy, and does have live plants and
a Lot of (pests) snails. Even having some clue as to what I was
buying I decided that $20 was a great deal and took everything.
<Ok>
Now I have 9 Neon Tetras with varying degrees of tumors or lumps and
all of whom have a dark reddish line along the bottom of their
bodies. These Neons appear to be at least a year old as they are all
1"+. I have done lots of reading and think they may have Neon Tetra
Disease, but do not want to rush such a dyer diagnosis.
<Mmm, likely is this (Pleistophora hyphessobryconis) and possibly
some other protozoan issue/s>
The Julis' and the guppy look great and have been moved to my 2.5
gallon Quarantine tank. I plan to introduce the Juli Cory's into my
40 Gallon and take the female Guppy to my LFS as I have no desire to
see her lonely or give birth! I had planned to keep the Neon's in
the Community Tank also but now I do not know if they are curable.
<Mmm, not as far as I'm aware>
For now they are still in the 5 Gallon Hex I bought them in as it is
the largest aquarium I have. The parameters are:
pH 7
Ammonia about 1 (not 0) -after two 50% water changes in as many
days.
<Needs to be zero... Very toxic... though not likely a determinant
issue here>
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 10
What would you recommend I do about the Neons?
<Mmm, please see below>
I do not know if the 5 gallon
will be large enough to safely treat them and do not know what they
have.
Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you,
DB
<I do hope/trust that your stated years of using our site will
attest to our not being heartless concerning aquatic life welfare,
but I would summarily euthanize this group of Neons... to prevent
spreading the disease... as they are very likely untreatable. You
could take a cursory scan on the Net to see if others have some
potential cure... Bob Fenner>
Re: Borrowing Trouble(d Neon Tetras)... 8/1/08
Thanks Bob, I was anticipating that answer. I have never had to
euthanize nine fish at once before...I have only had to do this
twice in my years keeping fish.
<Never easy...>
What is your personal preference to euthanize?
<Likely Clove Oil... Please read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/euthanasiafaqs.htm>
I realize there are many ways, I'm just wondering if you have a
"painless" method for both me and these poor Neons.
Thanks again,
DB
<Welcome. BobF> |
Ick/Whitespot 7/22/08
Hi Guys,
I added five new baby neon tetra's to my tank recently - it seems the neon's
have all developed Ick/Whitespot. I already had 6 Neon's 2 guppies and a
Sailfin Molly - these all appear to be fine.
<So far at least...
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/mollies.htm
Do review the needs of Mollies, and also be warned Neons may nip the fins of
fancy male Guppies.>
I have read your articles regarding ICK and just wanted to confirm your
recommendation for best way to treat.
<Promptly!>
I was just going to buy meds and treat the tank with meds and regular water
changes. However from reading through your site would you recommend
increasing temperature and treating with Salt instead?
<Makes no odds either way. I tend to use commercial medications such as eSHa
EXIT (a brand I find works well even with sensitive species like puffers)
because it's easier. But if you want to use salt/temperature, go ahead.>
I have added salt before but never with the neon's only with mollies/guppies
can my neon's tolerate salt? also my temp is at 80f already is it safe to
increase the temp further?
<Neons should tolerate the very low salt concentration required,
particularly if you build up the salinity across a few days. As for raising
the temperature, I wouldn't. Temperature is about speeding up the life cycle
of the parasite; in itself it isn't a "treatment" as such. The idea is that
the salt only kills the free living parasite, so the sooner that phase
begins, the better.>
Thanks in advance
Scott
<Cheers, Neale.>
The Bloated Clown Loach and the
Gluttonous Neon Tetras, env. dis. 6/18/08
Hello,
<Ave Maria>
I've read related posts, and I did see something about separating the loach
and feeding him frozen or fresh foods to correct the problem, but I'd just
like to make sure that this is correct for my situation, and to ask about
another problem with our tank population.
<Ok>
To give a bit of background, we are currently recovering from a HUGE nitrate
spike and battling high temperatures. Our nitrate level has gone from just
over 100 to around 30. We know this is still way too high, but it's taking
time to get it down with water changes. I'm so afraid we'll shock the fish.
This is a 160L tank with quite a few plants, 5 angelfish, 15 neon tetras, 1
Hillstream loach, 1 rainbow shark, 1 plecostomus, and 4 clown loaches. We
had 5, but one got very listless and soon died. Our tank stats currently
are:
pH: 6
KH: 5
GH: 14
NO2: 0
NO3: 30
<Still a bit too high>
The current problem loach became very bloated overnight. The other three
will cuddle with him from time to time, but when they go off to play, he
just stays on his side in a little cave or next to a wall. He is breathing
rapidly, and his gills seem a bit red.
<Good description, clues>
We don't have money for a quarantine tank right now,
<Don't need this... just to fix the one they're in now>
but we did put him in a clear plastic container with water from the tank. He
was difficult to catch. We've also given him some thawed bloodworms. He
looks healthy, aside from the bloating, which makes him look kind of
pregnant. We've just noticed that he seems to have a little hole in his
side, too. Is this the right treatment, or is he lost?
<Not lost... not really a treatment... I'd return this fish to the main
tank. Being in the container is worse>
The other issue involves our neon tetras. We were told that our loaches
would benefit from getting some frozen food once a week. My husband thaws
the block in warm water, then adds it to the tank. The problem is that our
loaches get none of it, since the tetras eat it ALL. Every single one ends
up looking impossibly bloated and like they might explode. We've tried
adding a bit more, but they just keep eating! Any ideas?
<Try other sinking type foods, or placing in an inverted "blackworms feeder"
on the bottom>
Thanks for taking the time to read this. You guys are always so informative
and quick to respond. Thank you!
Maria and Ola
<Fix the nitrates... the process of doing so will save your loach and other
livestock. Read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwnitrates.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>
Re: The Bloated Clown Loach and
the Gluttonous Neon Tetras
6/18/08
Thanks! We were very worried about the little guy. We'll keep up our
dilution plan until we get to an acceptable nitrate level, and then
stick to a schedule of weekly quarter changes. The fish seem so much
happier and more active after them. Thanks again!
<Dilution is not the only, even likely best route to go. Please read
where you were referred to. RMF>
Re: The Bloated Clown Loach and the Gluttonous Neon Tetras
6/19/08
We've already adjusted food amounts and begun vacuuming more often
as well. We have a lot of plant life. We'll get to the LFS this
weekend and see what we can do to implement the other recommended
methods. Thanks again!
<Ahh, welcome! Do please make it known how you progress here. Bob
Fenner>
Re: The Bloated Clown Loach and the
Gluttonous Neon Tetras – 06/28/08
Hi,
Just an update. I've been sick, so there was a bit of a delay in going to
the LFS. We have started treating with Tetra's Nitrate Minus, and more
importantly, we bought and set up an external filtration system that has
five stages of filter media. The fish are already looking more lively.
Sadly, Bloaty didn't make it. We should know how well this is working by
Monday.
<Thank you for this update. Do take care. BobF>
|
Possible Disease? - 06/15/2008
To the crew of WetWebMedia:
<Hello, Soojeong. Sabrina with you today.>
I have had neon tetras for about a year (probably a bit more, but nonetheless);
however, a problem stubbornly plagues my humble 20 gallon aquarium. When I first
bought eleven neon tetras, seven survived after two weeks to be transferred out
of the temporary tank and into my "main" tank. I had no problems so far; I
figured that the companies churning out neon tetras in mass quantity had
something to do with the near 40% mortality rate (maybe it was even a good deal
considering some of the horror stories).
<Though I'm sure there's tons of mass neon production, I believe some are still
wild-caught as well.>
I feel it necessary to mention here that the main tank had already been cycled
(I cheated a bit and jump-started with a handful of gravel from my old 10-gallon
tank)
<Perfect.>
and had its water treated and tested, as was the temporary tank. I put in some
plants in to help deal with fish waste. A few weeks later, a bamboo shrimp and a
candy striped Pleco joined the group. Everything seemed well and fine, save a
few algae here and there. Life was good. Here my troubles began.
<Uh-oh....>
I looked in the tank about a month or two later to find a tetra dead. None
showed typical Pleistophora (Neon Tetra Disease, god forbid) symptoms. Since the
False NTD caused by bacteria also has similar symptoms as the actual NTD, I
ruled it out. Okay.
<Disease common names are worse than fish common names.... Mycobacteriosis has
also been called Neon Tetra Disease.... sigh!>
No loss of color (unless postmortem, half-eaten state still counts), no
curvature of the spine... Although one or two fish wandered off alone, I didn't
think too much into it. I was slightly alarmed at the slightly eaten body, since
the other fish might be in danger of meeting the same end. And two weeks later,
another died. Then another week or two, and another dead body. Then suddenly
everything was fine. Until now, a full year later. Other than two tetras going
through a constant cycle of developing enormous bellies and huge appetites to
getting skinnier and eating normally, nothing seemed out of the ordinary.
<Unless you changed your feeding regime, I'm a little concerned about the weight
gain / loss that you saw....>
No new fish were introduced. Today I woke up to three hungry tetras (possibly
stressed from small group? I couldn't tell), and the body was nowhere to be
seen. It couldn't have jumped out, since I have a full lid because of the bamboo
shrimp and my Neons' odd habit of sometimes jumping out of the water to get at
the fish flakes. I suspect the body had been eaten.
<Quite possibly. It's also surprising how many nooks and crannies a body the
size of a neon can be hidden in.>
I was afraid to bring in new Neons in fear of infecting the new group or the old
group. Was I foolish to do so...?
<Foolish? Nah.>
Either way, I didn't want dead tetras. In case it was some sort of an
interspecies infection (although the Pleco is still fine), I fear to bring in
new fish, and taking the tank apart... I would like to avoid it if I can.
<Agreed.>
Could it have been some sort of an internal parasite?
<Mm, possibly. Really, there are countless possibilities.>
But I can't see any irregularities in the Neons. Besides, I do not want to
misdiagnose and kill, nor do I want to use Parasite-Clear and such since most
warns against using it for crustaceans.
<Yeah. I wouldn't want to use any medications in your main tank.>
If I did use it, I would have to take my shrimp out of the main tank, and I
don't know whether I can ever put the shrimp back in with the others, either.
<A very valid concern. Any medications containing copper should not be
considered for your tank, if you wish to keep shrimp. The best option is to
remove any affected fish and treat in a separate system. Though, I gather the
remaining fish are all asymptomatic?>
If the shrimp is untreated and later put in the treated tank (is that even
possible? after how much water changes?)
<Again - don't use copper, and as far as water changes - well, I would give at
least a few very large ones, and filter with carbon and PolyFilter before
reintroducing invertebrates. But again, if avoidable, I wouldn't want to treat
the main tank.>
is there still a risk for a reinfection if it was bacterial or parasitic?
<Well, since there's no clear way at this moment to tell what you're up against,
there's no clear answer I can give you as to whether or not it may resurface. I
would consider this within the realm of possibility.>
To summarize:
*20 gallon tank (tall); 1 bamboo shrimp (planning to get another soon if
possible), 1 candy striped Pleco (still small, but I am planning to get a bigger
tank later on), 3 neon tetras.
*Sudden death of neon tetras, no previous symptoms shown; possibly clusters of
deaths with incredibly long intermittent periods in between (unlikely, most
likely a second infection from unknown source, perhaps?)
<I would guess that the two problems were unrelated.>
I would appreciate any advice you have.
<Note also that the environment may be key here. Neons don't "like" hard water
with a high pH. They thrive in very soft, acidic conditions. If your water is
hard and alkaline, this should also be considered as a contributing factor in
the health of the Neons.>
P.S. Pardon me, I ended up writing a short story. I hope it didn't take up too
much of your time.
<Actually, I really appreciate your detail.>
Thank you very much for your efforts.
<And thank you for your kind words.>
Soojeong Kim
<Wishing you and your fishes well, -Sabrina>
Odd Behaving Betta
1/3/08
Hello, My name is Katelynn and I have some concerns about a new Betta I
bought on December 29th, because he does not eat and he will spend hours curled
up on a plant, hiding at the top of the tank in between the heater and the
filter, or laying (almost on his side) at the bottom of the tank.
<Hello Katelynn... Betta malaise can be caused by a variety of things. Lack of
warmth, cold air above the aquarium, and poor water quality are particularly
important.>
And when I mentioned that he curls up, he actually will be in an upside down,
motionless, summersault position.
<Not normal.>
Sometimes I have to watch him for a couple of minutes to see if he is breathing.
Then I get scared, so I take a net and give him a little nudge and then he will
move to a different spot and continue his odd behavior.
<Touching fish certainly doesn't help. They are easily damaged and your dry skin
can cause removal of the mucous on their bodies, allowing secondary infections.
Basically, look but don't touch!>
I have only seen him swim around twice since I have brought him home and one of
those times was because I gave him a nudge. I have never seen anything like this
before with Bettas I have had in the past.
<Ah, so you have experience with this fish? That's good. Do review the basic
requirements of the fish and check you have them all covered. Use test kits to
check pH, hardness as well as water quality.>
His color has not changed and there is no other physical signs of sickness. Now
I will fill you in on my set-up. I have an Eclipse System, 3 gallon tank.
<Too small. Three gallons -- especially 3 US gallons -- is a bucket, not an
aquarium. I KNOW people keep Bettas in tiny jars and the like, but this hardly
makes them easier to maintain. Small tanks are unstable and quickly go bad.>
It has a BIO-Wheel 3-stage filtration and a heater that keeps the water between
72-78 degrees.
<This is too much temperature change. You want at steady 77F/25C. Humidity above
the tank is CRITICAL; use a pane of glass or similar to the top of the tank if
is open to the air. You want just a crack to let in fresh air, but enough
humidity that water droplets collect on the pane of glass.>
I got the tank as an early Christmas gift and I set it up the night I got it and
put in three fake plants, (soft so they wont hurt the Bettas' fins) a house and
a cave and covered the bottom with gravel and some decorative, polished stones.
<Hmm... filter likely immature. Have you checked nitrite or ammonia?>
After setting up the tank, I let it run without any fish for a week to establish
the nitrogen cycle and after testing the water, I went out fish shopping.
<Doesn't work this way. Tanks cycle when they contain fish OR some other source
of ammonia, e.g., a piece of decaying seafood. Just sitting there empty achieves
precisely nothing.>
On that first outing I did not find the perfect Betta, but I did find an active
Cory and so I brought him home. He adapted well and then I added two small neon
tetras that were in need of a home after my sister decided she did not want her
tank anymore and could not find a home for them.
<All these in 3 gallons...? NO NO NO. Corydoras and Neons are schooling fish,
and Neons especially need to be kept in groups of 6 or more in a 10+ gallon
tank. Corydoras also need to be kept in groups of at least 3-4 specimens, and
most common species need a 20 gallon tank.>
They also adapted great and I waited a week to make sure none of the fish showed
any signs of disease. When the fish proved to be healthy and the water quality
did not deteriorate, I went out and found that perfect Betta.
<Oh...?>
I found a small, teal, crown tail Betta and brought him home. At first he swam a
bit and then started hiding. He wont even come out to eat.
<Neons have been reported to nip Betta fins. The two species cannot be kept
together.>
I have tried flake food, pellets, and freeze dried bloodworms, but none of these
seem to interest him.
<Don't worry about food just now.>
I test the water daily and the nitrate level is 0, the nitrite level is 0, the
water is soft (75GH), the alkalinity is between 120-180KH, and the pH is neutral
(between 6.8-7.2). The other fish are fine and seem to be doing great.
<Hmm... seriously, I'm not convinced this tank will work in the long term.>
If you could please give me any idea of what may be wrong with my new fishy
friend, I would be very grateful. Thank you
<Difficult to say precisely what's wrong. Check the ammonia and nitrite levels.
I'd assuming a tank this young will still be cycling, so don't feed more than 1
times per 2 days, and do 50% water changes at least every other day, and ideally
every day. After 3-6 weeks, things should settle down some and you'll find
ammonia and nitrite are both zero. Please think seriously about a bigger tank: 3
gallons isn't an aquarium, it's a bucket, and no better suited to keeping fish
in the long term. Cheers, Neale.>
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