Question about FW ray disease   4/26/06
Hi, I found your website online because I was looking for a diagnosis for my motoro ray.  This morning I was looking at and the front part of its disk on
top, from its eyes to the front are covered with about 20 white dots/ grows.  
But the grows don't' look like ich?
<... perhaps flukes>
the dots seem to have volume, are white, seem to be about 1 mm in diameter.  they are just on the top 1 inch front of
the ray near its nose which seems weird.  Is this some sort of fungus?
<Not likely>
It seems like it.  I was wondering if you knew any sort of treatment, your website basically states that all treatment is harmful to rays. =/
Thanks in advance,
Victor
<... You will need microscopic examination to determine what this is... and maybe staining as well... There are reference works on fish pathology... I would at least seek out Edward Noga's survey work (Fish Disease; Diagnosis and Treatment) here. Bob Fenner>

Freshwater stingray growth rate  - 03/11/2006
Hello I have one question. Can I keep a freshwater stingray in a 55 gallon tank until I have the room and the money for a bigger tank. Thank you
>> That depends on the species. Make sure to understand that all but one or two species of freshwater rays get over 3 feet in diameter, and are less than ideal aquarium fish. To keep a small ray in your tank until it grows is possible, but I would not recommend it. Good Luck, Oliver

Freshwater Stingrays (Sand?, Filters?, and Heaters?) - 2/28/2006
Guys,
<And gals...>
First of all, thanks for your feedback reference my earlier correspondence questioning Freshwater Stingrays.  I have decided to increase my filtration to maintain the water quality in the approximately 180-Gallon tank.  Have you heard anything good/bad/indifferent with regards to the new Fluval FX5 Canister Filter?
<Mmm, no... but this line has been greatly improved over the years... used to be junk... had a few "pop-apart" many years back>
They claim that it will pump approximately 925 GPH and maintain a tank of approximately 400 US Gallons???
<Mmm, an over-estimate... akin to the U.S. gov't rating of automobile mileage... once the media is a bit dirty/clogged... I would count on about half this capacity/flow.>
My intention is to purchase this filter and add an existing Fluval 404 filled just with BioMax for Biological Filtration (and maybe ammonia reducer)?
<Hopefully... these rays are quite massive... and do produce a good deal of nitrogenous waste... and "don't like it"...>
I have also purchased a large UV Sterilizer that will be added to the tank to control pathogens and algae.  I still don't know what direction to go
with the sand bottom.  I have read that Estes Ultra Reef Sand and Calci Sand are good selections.
<Yes... something fine, non-angular (not silicate based)>
What do you guys think?  Will 100lbs. of sand be adequate for a 1" thick base on tank dimensions of 7ft. x 2ft. x 2ft.?  On more question, I am desperately looking for an inline heater
(or two), but cannot find one that will not affect the throughput of the Fluval FX5 Filter.
<Not likely... I would add a "closed loop" external recirculation system here... and use the dedicated pump here to drive the water through the in-line heater... OR place these heaters in an external sump, and use this arrangement of pumping. Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/pbh2oret.htm
and the linked files above...>
  The filter's input and output hoses are approximately 1" in diameter and the only inline filter that I have found (Hydor) offers a 5/8" connection which would limit the flow of water.
<Mmm, and these pumps are not engineered to have any/more resistance. Again, I would not use them to move water through anything else, including your proposed UV>
I have purchased online a fiberglass aquarium background that resembles real sandstone and do not want to hide it with heaters, pumps, etc.  
<These are really neat... gorgeous>
As always, I greatly appreciate your feedback and value your opinions.
Regards,
Steven W. Smith Jr.
<Thank you for writing, sharing. Bob Fenner>

Was Stocking a Brackish Tank, now Potamotrygonids   2/24/06
Ouch...
looks like that archer tank won't happen until I get a massive tank. I do want to have at least 6 or so, so until I can afford a 300 gallon or
something of the like...
Anyhoo, I guess I'll just stick with freshwater for now. Imagine what I could put in 100 gallons! A small school of piranhas...freshwater stingrays
(juvenile, of course) etc... anyways, I won't get ahead of myself. Just wondering about reticulated stingrays - do they need a fine sand substrate,
gravel, or bare bottom tanks?
<Please see here: http://wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwstingrays.htm
Finer is better>
My LFS recently got in some teacup reticulated stingrays - 79 bucks (a pretty good deal here in Canada). My guess would be
a 200 gallon tank minimum for a full grown adult?
<Something like this>
I just think rays are really awesome, and would like to look into them soon. I am willing to do 20% water changes every other day, and I think discus would make suitable tankmates (same water parameters, water changes, etc.). By the way, I asked about the 2000 gallon shark tank... apparently, they only do top-ups!
Incredible. I've somewhat lost respect for them, though, after finding that they were keeping two white tip and one black tip reef shark in this small
tank, along with some kind of bamboo or epaulette shark. Thanks,
-Eddy
<Be chatting, reading. Bob Fenner>

Freshwater Stingrays and the perfect environment?  - 2/4/2006
WWM Crew,
<Steven>
First of all, thanks in advance for your help.  I am in the process (well, the contractors are in the process) of refinishing my basement.
I intend on adding a Freshwater Stingray tank into my plans and have ordered a custom tank to be built (72" x 28" x 20") (approximately
180-gallons).  This tank will be built into the wall in the Pool Room (I am hoping the calming effects of the aquarium help my Pool game:- )).
<Heee! Hope no one scratches in the direction of the tank!>
  I have had Motoro Rays in the past and been quite successful with managing their higher maintenance requirements, but I wanted to make sure that I
was on the right track with this design.  I will probably purchase two 4"-6" freshwater rays (1- Potamotrygon henlei & 1- Potamotrygon motoro).
Do you feel as though the tank will support them comfortably?
<At least for a while, yes. Would be better in something larger...>
Also, I have little experience with a sand-bottom tank, but want to have the right substrate for their health.  Can you recommend a specific type of
gravel that would be safe for me to use?
<Fine, river sand... something roundish, not too alkaline...>
Or should I research sand more closely?  My concern with sand is the cleaning process?
<Mmm, just rinse in 10-15 pound samples... in running water... in a plastic (pickle) bucket... with a garden hose and your hand... till the water runs clear>
Also, I planned on 3 x Fluval 404 Canister Filters for filtration.  I always like to err on the side of too much filtration vs. not enough.  What do you guys think?
<Should work... though if it were me, I'd fit a refugium/sump on here, with RDP lighting, live plants, a DSB... and one or two canister filters. Oh, and make sure I'd have plenty of stored, soft/er, warm make-up water for changes positioned nearby... an R.O.? Bob Fenner>
Best Regards,
Steve

Freshwater Stingrays, Sabrina's Envy - 12/15/2005
Around 6 moths ago after 15 years of fish keeping I decided to try freshwater stingrays.
<I envy you.  Deeply.  You've no idea how much I love these animals, wish I could keep, breed....  Not in California.  Sigh.>
The most frequently available and affordable to were Potamotrygon reticulatus.
<Beautiful.>
I set up a 6' x 2' x 18" high tank filter using 2 canister filters - an Eheim 2213 and a Fluval 304) with a sand substrate about 1/2" thick. The pH was and still is 7, temp 80degrees C, ammonia zero and nitrates controlled with weekly water changes.
<Nitrite, I trust, is zero as well.>
About mid June I purchased 2 Retics (only males were available) about (XX)" dia
<Unfortunately, portions of your email are garbled....  the lettering I can figure out, but this is impossible for me with your numbering, unfortunately; not sure what happened here.>
and settled them into the tank with the intention of getting 2 females at a later date. These 2 males settled within the hour and were eating earthworms the same day.  
<Wow, excellent!>
About the end of October the shop finally got more retics in and I got (XX)
<Same trouble....>
females again about 2" dia. The males are now about (XX)5"-4"
<I'm assuming this is 3.5-4 inches?  Blast this webmail....>
and the females were added to the same tank.
<Yikes!  I'd've quarantined the newcomers, to be sure....  there's just SO much that can go wrong with rays....>
Although I could see no problems between the rays the 2 new females have not settled like the males and do not seem to be eating anything I put in the tank.
<VERY bad news....  At this tiny, tiny size, they may not make it without food urgently....>
I have tried blood/earth worm, prawn, mussels, flake, tablet and I have even tried Live deformed Endler's guppies (which is normally a big no no for me) all without success.
<Try live bloodworms, failing that, try live blackworms.>
I am now at a stage where I have placed a divider in the tank as one female is extremely skinny (hollow in the head and showing pectoral bones) and the other seem not as bad but fear it will go the same way.
<Very, very dangerous....>
I feel the possible mistake has been adding them at different times and if so then lesson learned as I feel I will lose these 2 females.
<I fear you may....  The urgent lesson here is QUARANTINE your newcomers....  Not only to protect your existing, healthy stock, but to help the newcomers chill out and eat.>
Sorry for the length of this mail but the more info u
<Not 'u', 'you'....  we have to correct these for posting on the site.>
have the less speculation you will need to make.
<Quite correct.  Thank you for the detailed info.>
If you can help or advise it would be appreciated.
<I would advise removing the females to a separate quarantine system if possible - and NEVER add to your main tank without a four week quarantine for new rays.  If these girlies don't make it, I will also *strongly* advise that you start with slightly larger specimens next time, and make the shop owner show you the animals eating prior to purchase - if they don't eat, don't buy.>
Thanks,  Stuart,  Scotland.
<Thank you very much for sharing, Stuart - Keep up hope, and try to get some live bloodworms or live blackworms into these girlies.  If you get them to eat, keep them eating - get 'em fattened up a bit before you wean them off onto dead or prepared foods.  All the best to you,  -Sabrina>

I have a sick ray...  12/13/05
Hello, I found your email online and thought you might be able to help me.
<Sorry for delayed reply. Have been away>
I have a motoro freshwater stingray.  about 10 inch disc.  He has been healthy for over a year since I've had him.
He quit eating 3 days ago, this was the first time he has ever refused food.
  I checked water conditions and they seem fine, nothing out of ordinary.
His stomach seems enlarged on his underside and a little enlarged and uneven
on top side.
<Is likely a tumor from a lack of nutrient... very possibly a goiter from iodine deficiency>
His left clasper also has some sort of white/red thing in/on it...
The man I bought him from recommended partial water change (I do regularly) and that was it.
Do you think there is anything else I might be able to do to help him?
Thanks for any info, and sorry if I'm bothering you
Mike Wagner
Charlotte, NC
<Please search WWM re Ray Health, Nutrition... for marines as well as freshwater. Bob Fenner>

Illegal Rays? - 11/22/2005
Could you tell me if freshwater stingrays are illegal in Georgia?
<You will need to find that out through your local (Georgia) wildlife or fish and game department.>
If they are what requirements must be met to keep them?
<If they ARE illegal to own/sell/etc., again, you'll need to find out through the government body that regulates them. I know in California it's essentially impossible for an "average Joe" (including myself) to obtain a permit for keeping these animals. Major bummer.>
Thanks in advance.
<Wishing you well, -Sabrina>

Sting Ray Needs Help... You leave me... breathless, ahhh!  11/21/05
our
<The beginning of sentences words are capitalized...>
<<I'm correcting.. MH>>
sting ray has not been eating for the past two days. we noticed he has a little bite on his tail. so we put some MelaFix
<Worthless>
in the water to help heal the wound. Also the stingray seems stressed out.
<... What re water quality? History, make-up of system?>
He is swimming upside down sometimes and really just sits at the bottom of the tank. This is not normal for him at all. He is very lively. He swims up and down the tank splashing water. Very fun to watch.
<Whee!>
We have had him about 8 months. I have done a water change and carbon filter change and just what him to get better. We lost our hippo tang in our salt water tank 2 weeks ago to ich and it was very upsetting. We want to stop the losing of the fish as quick as possible. Please help
<You're joking, right? You haven't even mentioned whether this is a marine or freshwater animal. I suspect it is FW and that you haven't read the materials archived on WWM re: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwstingrays.htm and the linked file above. Bob Fenner>

Freshwater Stingrays, Plants, Substrates.... - 10/21/2005
Hey crew, I was just wondering about freshwater stingrays and live plants. In some of your info it talks about those two working together. I was just wondering wouldn't the f/w stingray knock them down?
<Mm, were I to keep the two together, I would probably stick with plants that can be rooted on wood (Anubias sp., Microsorium pteropus / java fern, Vesicularia dubyana/java moss....). Thus I could keep the substrate mostly clear and open for the rays.>
Also I use fluorite for my plants instead of gravel. Is that ok for the stingray?
<Oh, no. No, not at all.>
Or should I put a layer of fine sand down on top of the fluorite for the stingray?
<Due to the tendency of smaller, lighter particles to "settle" and larger, heavier particles to be displaced and come to the top, this will not help.... A tank with a substrate of fluorite would be fatal to a stingray.... literally.>
Most importantly will my live plants be safe from harm's way
<I assure you this is less important than not having harmfully abrasive substrates in a ray's tank....>
due to the fact that the stingray lacks a gas bladder and once in motion... stays in motion?
<If you stick with plants that can be rooted on wood, or use terra cotta pots for other plants like swords, etc., plants would do excellently. The ray absolutely requires a non-abrasive substrate and a great deal of open space. Keep this in mind if you choose to consider a ray. Wishing you well, -Sabrina>

First Freshwater Stingray, Selection - 10/17/2005
I was wondering what ray would be best suited for a beginner and would work in a 110 gallon tank
<In my opinion, none are suited to this size/shape tank, if this is a "common" 110 - 48" by 19" footprint, roughly.>
and I was planning on housing it with a royal Pleco (Panaque nigrolineatus) and 5 Sorubim lima. I am currently looking at Potamotrygon leopoldi. Any other suggestions would be helpful.
<You might possibly get by with something like Potamotrygon scobina, which reportedly stays closer to 12" to 14".... But I would absolutely not, in a system with a footprint anything less than 48" by 24". Preferably larger. Wishing you well, -Sabrina> 

First Freshwater Stingray, Selection - II - 10/18/2005
The tank that I am buying has the following dimensions 48" long 24" wide and 18" high, if that helps.
<Mm, somewhat....  I would not put leopoldi in this system, to be sure, but you might be able to get by with a single P. scobina.  It would be better to have it in a larger system, though; after discussing with Bob, he recommends a 72" by 24" tank, so you might consider upgrading in the near future at least.  Wishing you well,  -Sabrina>

Freshwater stingray
I have a freshwater stingray for 2 months she is eating great.
I just saw her swimming upside down and doing weird things .  Her breathing is a little rapid what is wrong with her, I like her and don't want anything to be  wrong.
>> Check your ammonia and nitrite levels. Sometimes rays can swim in strange ways in the current of the filter. Is she doing this all the time? Is she still eating? Thanks, Oliver

Freshwater Stingray
She died 8 minutes later.  She was eating great.  Everyday about  1-2 dozen grass shrimp.  She was about 5-6 inches round.  I really  enjoyed her and want to get another, but I want to know why or what happened so  this doesn't happen again.  I got her from the local pet shop.  She  was just gray with the yellow spotted tail.  I researched everything  and thought I set up good.  she would only eat the shrimp, I tried worms,  krill, she killed two molly's i had in the tank with her 3 day's before she died  (didn't eat them though)  Any suggestions, or places to get another one  when I am  ready (different Kinds of stingrays) . Also, any  information to help in the future.   Thank You
Joy (I live in  Florida, I don't know if that has anything to do with  it)
>>Dear Joy, rays are sometimes a bit sensitive, if the fish was eating well at your place for a while it seems you were doing things right. A ray would not kill fish without eating them, so something in your tank was wrong enough to kill your mollies as well. Maybe they died of ammonia or nitrite poisoning. Feeding shrimp can foul the water quickly. On another note, now that you mention you are in Florida: All freshwater stingrays are prohibited in your state and as far as I know can not be sold in Florida or kept by Florida residents. You may want to research this with your local USFW department. Good Luck, Oliver

Stingray Identification? - 03/31/2005
I am getting ready to purchase my first stingray, but I am receiving conflicting information about the type of ray. The store at which I plan to buy the ray tells me it is a Brazilian teacup ray. I have been look up information on the web and have found that any ray under 5" is considered a teacup.
<Agh, I hate common names. I've only ever heard Potamotrygon orbignyi (also known as P. reticulatus) referred to as the "teacup" ray. Do please consult http://www.fishbase.org  and enter "Potamotrygon" into the genus area and do a search. Look at all the different rays, and compare with the one you're looking into purchasing. Try to make a positive ID prior to purchase, so you know what you're getting into.>
When I first saw the ray I thought it was a flower ray.
<Again, common names, especially when dealing with fish as uncommon as the freshwater rays, are worthless.>
Is there anything special that I can look for on the ray to help me determine which species it is?
<Just as above.>
I am planning on putting the ray in a 55gal to start.
<I would *strongly* urge against this. Plan for the *adult* size of the fish, and have the appropriate size/shape tank to start with. A 55 is grossly inadequate for housing a fish that will ultimately have a disc size of 14" or so. A 55g tank is only 12" front to back. Please plan on a MUCH larger tank than this.>
What is the average rate of growth for stingray?
<Very fast, if fed and cared for properly. If you got the ray, at, say, a 6" disc diameter, expect it to outgrow the 55g in less than a year. I wouldn't put a 6" ray in a 55g to start with. Given the cost of rays, you really will be farther ahead to start with a tank that can house them for their lives, not for a few months. It will cost you more in the long run to keep upgrading just to keep them in "adequate" sized housing. Please think seriously before making your purchase; better to wait and succeed than to be impatient and risk losing the fish.>
Thanks!
<Wishing you and your future charges well, -Sabrina>

A hurt sting ray
My sting ray (freshwater) was just recently cut up pretty badly. We have an algae eater in with her because the fish store owner said we should have him. He's big enough so that she can't eat him. We also have a decorative ship in the tank. Sometimes our ray will go inside the ship and it takes her a while to finally come out. She seems to like to go in it. Lately the algae eater is also inside the ship with her. We found her cut up with flesh and blood the other day. We don't know if she got attacked by the algae eater (I've finally read that they can suck on their skin) or if she got stuck in the ship and got scraped up when trying to get out. She's gotten out before, so it's just really hard to tell. Which scenario do you think is more likely? What should we do next to help her?
Thank you, Jessica Maurer
<I'd remove the ship, and the algae eater... raise temperature to the mid 80's F... and observe the fish for signs of secondary infection. Bob Fenner>

Re: hurt FW sting ray
Thank you for your response. She seems to be doing well. We got medicine for her wounds and she's eating good. She only seems to like to eat ghost shrimp, frozen bloodworms and little fish.
<Yes... meaty foods>
We've tried other things, she won't eat them. Is it ok if we buy a lot (say around 100) ghost shrimp at a time and just put them in our 85 gallon tank? She eats a lot at a time and we go through them so fast. Will that mess up our tank or will they die easily?
<Mmm, would be better to house the food separately... you could even establish a breeding colony... Are hardy animals... am just fearful that your fish/es might eat too many at once>
Thanks again for your help.
Jessica Maurer
<You're welcome. Bob Fenner>

Re: hurt sting ray
Thank you. What's too many at a time? Also, how about fish.? How many fish at a time should we put in? She likes the rosy reds. Thanks, Jessica
<I would only feed this fish about twice a week... and not to the point where "it's tummy is bulging out". Bob Fenner>

Cats and Ray, best friends?
Hello I was wondering if my Sorubim lima and a tiger shovel nose catfish (I don't know the scientific name sorry) would be a good tank mates for a Potomotrygon motoro freshwater stingray and what else could I put in the tank
< Hope you have a big tank. I have seen pictures of these fish at least 4 feet long. The big cats may be a bit feisty with one another, especially at feeding time where they may take a bit out of each other in an attempt to catch a feeder fish. Other than that, your fish usually will not bother any other fish that it cannot swallow. Think BIG!-Chuck>
                                             thanks
                                                 CJ

Freshwater stingrays
Hello I tried my stingray and shovelnose's compatibility in my 300 gallon tank in my basement and it is working for now, but would it be possible to raise another FW ray in a 85 gallon tank safely without having to move it.
<CJ I checked and I think the smallest freshwater ray still gets to about a foot in diameter. I think the 85 will be too small once its full grown.
MacL>
                                      thanks
                                          CJ

Sting Ray with what I got?
I was wondering if they would be a good match. I have a 150gal tank with 1 Fire Eel (10") 1 Peacock Eel (4") and an Arowana (5"). I have seen sting
rays with the Arowana before but not with eels before.
PS
Love the site. One of the best ones I have come across!
< Thanks for the kind words. The key factor here is size. As long as the fish are either too big to be swallowed or too fast to be caught then any new additions should be fine after a two to three week quarantine period.-Chuck>
Thank You,
Rodney Powell

Part of stingray's tail turned white
Hi
We have a stingray whose tail had a white tip, yesterday about an inch down from the tip we saw another small white area.  Today between the two white areas turned white and then fell off.  Can you explain to us whether this is normal or if not what do we need to do.  He seems to be acting normal and eating fine.
Thank you
Lori
<Mmm, not normal in general... possibly this fish had a part of its tail smashed or picked on by other life in the system. Do keep your eye on it for possible (reddish) infection, consider bolstering its immune system with vitamin-laced foods, and do the requisite check on your water quality. Something is/was amiss here. Bob Fenner>

Freshwater ray, automated water changes
Hello, I've been reading through your site and find it very insightful.  
I've been reading about the freshwater rays for a couple months now, wanting to try them but thinking I did not have the time or money to put into one.  
My fiancé recently bought me a surprise...a male P. hystrix!  Being it was a surprise, I didn't have very much time to prepare, and it seems my friends and family didn't have much of an idea of what these fish require before they bought him for me.   Well, for the time being he is in a 55 gallon tank, peacefully living with an Oscar and eating well.  the Oscar, though, is horribly messy, and I'm having to do 75% water changes every week to keep his water conditions under control.  I have the materials to build an 8x6x1 foot pond for him, but cannot set it up until I move out of my current residence (my landlord won't allow it).  I'm moving out July of next year, so in the time being I have to figure out how to keep my ray healthy.  I have some time off work, and was thinking about trying to build a continuous water changing device for my tank.  My water is the right quality (soft, neutral to acidic).  I want to drill a hole in the back of the tank for the overflow, then use airline tubing connected to a bathroom sink with a sprayer nozzle on the end.  I've never had a problem with chlorine before, sometimes even being as bold as to put water straight from the tap in with my hardier fishes.
<Be aware that municipalities do not continuously administer the same concentration (generally chloramine, not chlorine) and that you may well "get caught" by their pulsing sanitizer>
In your opinion, would the sprayer nozzle be enough to evaporate the chlorine?
<No, but you could use a contactor of sorts... chemicals that would absorb...>
  As a side note, my pond will have a large, 3x3 foot viewing pain on the surface, kind of like a big snorkel mask, I'll also plant two kinds of tropical water lily around the outside to give my ray a sense of security.  Could you give me any helpful hints and criticisms before I put money into these projects? thanks!
Jon
<What specifically are you looking for? I would not go ahead with your continuous water changer as you describe it... too risky, and the chance to siphon/gravel wash the present system would be lost... keep changing the water manually, twice a week if necessary, and look into more filtration, circulation. Bob Fenner>

MI Rays
hello I live in Michigan and I  was wondering whether not freshwater stingrays were illegal or not here please e-mail
                                                 thanks
                                                         CJ
<Don't know, but do know where to check. Your State Fish and Game. Likely have a website, can contact them through this if they don't have a list of illegals posted... Potamotrygonids are legal in many states. Bob Fenner>

FW Stingrays
Hi,
First I would like thank you for your advice and answers in the past. My question is are FW stingrays legal in Cali?
< No, Sorry. And there is a big fine too if you are caught.-Chuck>
My former elementary school has an interest in setting up a stingray tank, since it is their mascot. I have own FW and reef tanks but have never owned stingrays and do not know much about them, although I have read the section about FW stingrays on this website. If you don't know then perhaps where could I find this information? Thanks!
-Alex

Indoor Pond filtration? 7/29/04
Hello, I really appreciate all the great advice you have given me!! I am now facing the next dilemma. I have purchased 2 Rubbermaid Agricultural 300 gallon stock tanks. I intend to use them side by side in my basement to keep freshwater Stingrays.
<Neat>
I am at a loss as to what to use for filters. I know these fish demand excellent water, and am prepared to do lots of water changes with RO/DI water. What type of filters should I run? I have heard these fish very sensitive to nitrates. Too bad they are freshwater instead of marine or I could just use live rock. What is the answer for nitrate reduction in freshwater besides water changes?
<Good questions... the "real" or "best" answers to nitrate accumulation are likely "person specific" (actually worse, I'm susceptible to offering a very variations myself!). Low stocking density, careful feeding would get mentioned of course... the use of "in-sump" or in tank vascular plants, deep sand beds (same sort of approach as marine DSBs) would certainly work... water changes, perhaps occasional use of chemical filtrants should be cited... More volume ties in with the idea of low stocking density... Okay, I would tie in another Rubbermaid container if it'll fit, use it to grow lots of rapid-growing, floating (maybe some above like Ceratopteris spp. and submerged... Myriophyllum, Egeria...?) plants, a deep sand bed there (five or more inches) and not count on the same areas in the tubs with the rays (as they will stir these up continuously)... get, use large (as you can afford) canister filters (my favs are Eheim brand) and stock them with their media and basically forget them (they won't require much service)... get yet another Rubbermaid container to collect likely reverse osmosis water (or other pre-prepared water you intend to use for water changes) and be very diligent in making BIG (like 25% or more) weekly water changes... stock up on nitrate test kit reagents and check these once a week... And see what develops. Bob Fenner>

Stingrays with Oscars
thank you for your time. I would like to know if you would know it would be possible to out a stingray with Oscars  thank you for your time
<Both come from South American rivers so the water requirements should be the same. They should get along as long as they are close to the same size. The Oscar may not let any food sink down to the bottom so you may have to feed the stingray at night to make sure he is getting some food.-Chuck>

Stingrays with Oscars, Follow-up
thank you very much are there and stingray that you would recommend for this tank thank you once again
< All stingrays get big! They prefer soft warm clean water. Not too many stores carry to many different species so any one would be fine.-Chuck>

Stingrays with Oscars, More Follow-up
ok then thank you very much. so do you think a 5 foot tank would be big enough for one of them
< I have seen stingrays in public aquariums get up to 3 feet wide. True they are very old but you have to realize that they will get too big for most tanks. Also keep in mind that there will be some potential for getting hurt when you need to handle these guys. They do have a large barb in the tail and know how to use it.>
when you say soft water what do you mean by that neutral water ph  and what temp
< Neutral to acidic is fine unless you get a really true black water species that needs acidic (pH 6) water at least 80 degrees F.-Chuck> thank you very much

Stingrays with Oscars, More Follow-up
so they all grow that large. what is the smallest of them all do you know.
< I don't know of any dwarf stingrays. In the Baensch atlas they list a few that any get a little over a foot but I know I have seen them larger than that in large public aquariums.
thanks for he ph all my tanks are neutral  and are at 80 degrees f.  do you recommend doing it or not.
< Stingrays are illegal in some states. I would recommend that you talk to your local fish store to see if they are legal in your area , how much they cost. I would only handle them with a very long handled net.--Chuck> also do you know where I can get them from. how do
you handle them if you have to move them with there barb. thanks

FW stingrays
sorry about this I will be quick but are stingrays  fine with Oscars or not because I really love them but if they are not I will  give them there own tank so please email me on your thoughts about this thank you very much
< This is a tough one. I think the Oscars will leave the stingrays alone and vice versa if they are about the same size. The problem I see is getting enough food to the stingrays without the Oscars eating it all. maybe feeding at night will help. If it looks like the stingrays are getting too thin then separating them from the Oscars may be the only option.-Chuck>

Freshwater Stingray pc. on WWM, ref.s
I recently went to your website, Freshwater Stingrays: Family Potamotrygonidae. I was reading the section labeled Selection>>Coloration. Under this section, you indicated that Potamotrygonids are aquatic chameleons. I am currently do a research project on stingray color variation/polychromatism. Would you know where I could find primary or secondary literature that would support the claim you made.
<Mmm, the piece was penned several years back... the input may be somewhere in the pet-fish literature listed, or just a first person observation on my part>
I am particularly interested in knowing whether stingray coloration changes based upon river color, genetics, or physiological effects. I have attempted to search the  internet and several educational journals on this topic. However, none have offered me the information that I need. Please contact me when you can.
-Edna Bonhomme
<... If this is an "in depth" search, I encourage you to seek out the posted bibliography along with a current computer search of the group, key terms above. Bob Fenner>

Freshwater manta - teacup manta ray
Can a fresh water manta say with a 4" wing span live harmoniously with (3) 3" Plecostomus in a 30 gal. tank............of curse until I need to upgrade due
to size. Would angel fish also do well in the same tank?
< By the term freshwater manta ray I will assume you are talking about one of the  fresh water stingrays from South America. All of the freshwater stingrays I have seen get large (Up to 4 feet across). They are predatory on small fishes and invertebrates. usually with these typ of fish if they can't swallow it then they pretty much leave it alone.-Chuck>

Freshwater stingrays (not in CA)
I am interested in buying 2 freshwater sting rays...can you help me by any chance but I live in California... any thing near hear??
<As far as I'm aware the family Potamotrygonidae is still illegal to possess (or sell) in California. Bob Fenner>

Help with FW stingrays
I have read through your site on FW stingrays and need some information I can not find.  I just received two Potamotrygon castexi one is thin and has two wounds on its belly, obviously the distributor should not have sent it to me, but too late for that.  
<Very common for FW stingrays to "come in" injured>
You suggest we do not medicate them with Dylox (which our distributor did suggest) or add salt, but you do not state what you do recommend we do use.
<I would use only about a teaspoon per gallon of any salt type here>
My second question is...the distributor was feeding them live black (blood) worms, are you aware of any way to adjust them to frozen foods instead of live?  Thanks for your attention to this.  Kim (Fishy Business, Montana)
<I would NOT feed these rays tubificid worms (e.g. "Black"), but Blood "worms" (actually insect larvae) are fine. Other foods can be substituted by mixing the two together for a few days. Bob Fenner>

Freshwater Stingrays and Substrate
Hello Crew, 
<Hello Reader.> 
I've been reading up on FW stingrays and have noticed most people seem to be trying to keep FW rays in large, rectangular aquariums on a sand substrate. I'm wondering if they can be kept in a smooth (no sand), round, PLASTIC stock tank. 
<The trend of having them with a sandy substrate is for the aesthetic look for the aquarium owner as much as it is for the stingrays themselves. It's true that these rays natural environment is for them to burrow into the sand and hide. But, many of the large aquariums have barren bottoms on their ray tanks. In fact, the last three I visited that had feeding/petting Marine ray tanks had no sand at all.) 
I've got a 500+ gallon, 8 foot round one that I use as a turtle pond. The double thick walls help to insulate it and it is easy to drill and plumb. It was also cheap-----$240 . 
<I'm very jealous! that is quite an impressive find, and would love to have something like that for any one of my fish!> 
Can one of these be used for a ray tank? (The 6 foot round will roll through a doorway and into a house.) 
<I have seen these tanks used for shark tanks, and of course for Koi and Goldfish tanks. I believe that this tank could be used for a ray tank. Provided that you do offer the ray places to hide. Be it large pieces of driftwood, or large make shift shelves that the rays could hide beneath. You know that you can purchase a large amount of tropical play sand from your local hardware store (or Home Depot, Lowe's, etc...). Enough to at least offer some sand on the bottom for the fish.> 
I know that a traditional tank would make viewing much easier, but that big of a tank (300 gallons) is very heavy to move, very expensive, and requires an expensive stand. 
<When dealing with Stingrays, one of the best ways to view these animals is from the top! It's like watching Frisbees or dinner plates swim, seeing them from the side is still interesting, but the larger viewable surface is looking down on them. As for a 300 Gallon tank you could build your own to save on money. there are many sites online that show people building 1000 gallon tanks into walls (with three sides being solid, and one large glass/Plexi window to view from). In fact I recently gave a fish to a man who built a 650 and 750 gallon tank in his basement using info he found online. Though, they are more of a permanent fixture thus making them not moveable, but it can be less expensive if you build one yourself.> 
With the prices of the more vividly colored FW rays as high as they are, I'd rather buy more space for less money and get better filtration with the savings. Would a stock tank work? 
<Considering I have seen this used at many aquariums around the world to hold their Stingrays then I do believe that this will work for you as well. You might want to visit some Stingray message forums and see if anyone has suggestions.> 
Would a totally bare tank (no sand at all) be too stressful for a ray? 
<Totally bare yes it would be stressful, but if you sink other objects in there for the fish to hide under (like a make shift shelf, and lots of driftwood and plants) then I could see a stingray being okay. The tank I'm envisioning can not be viewed from the sides... so the stingrays won't see you unless you are over the top of them. So, in actuality they will be quite secure and less stressed since they can't see outside the tank.> 
Could a sunken tray of smooth sand be used if needed? 
<The sand will be spread out of the tray in no time, but I do think that this is an option that you should keep open. I've never seen it done, but it might work great for your rays, and offer them another area to feel secure.> 
Could drift wood with java fern and moss be used to aquascape or would it scrape the ray? 
<Rays scrape against all that stuff in the wild and it doesn't bother them. Provided you don't have any extremely pointy pieces, or sharp areas then it should be fine. Check the wood over and sand off any areas that look dangerous.> 
Thank you for your time, Tam Jones 
<No problem, and I hope the tank works out for you. Look online for Stingray forums and see what others are saying. You might learn a great deal from them as well. Also, if you are going to have a tank that large only viewable from the top you might want to invest in a mask and snorkel! Good luck. -Magnus>

Freshwater Stingray
Hello,
<Howdy>
I have two freshwater stingrays (not exactly sure what kind), male and female.  My male is continuingly swimming in circles and has not eaten in two days.  Is this normal or should I be concerned?
<Not atypical for these fishes to go on periodic hunger strikes... if it doesn't eat for more than a week I'd be concerned, try other foods, soaking them in an appetite stimulant solution. But the swimming in circles is not a good sign. How long have you had these fishes, and how are they housed? Bob Fenner>
Roy D. Gray

Re: Freshwater Stingray
Unfortunately the male stingray died 1/16/04.  The female stingray I have had about three months, and the male about 2 months.  The female seems fine and very active.  Roy
<Sorry to hear of the loss... these fishes are almost all wild-caught (some public aquariums have had live births that get distributed)... and sometimes die of apparently "anomalous" causes. Have you seen the article and FAQs on the family posted here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwstingrays.htm
Bob Fenner>

Possible growth on Fresh water Stingray (URGENT)
Hello my name is Thomas Merrill.  I have had two Motoro Stingray for about six months now.  Everything has been great.  Today I noticed a small red sac attached the anus of my male stingray.  He is still acting healthy and eats when ever food is presented.  Attached are a couple Photos I just took.  Do you have any idea what this is, and if not do you know where I might ask?  If you do know what it is could you please tell me about it and how I could possibly treat it?  Thanks, Thomas Merrill
<Thomas, sorry to say the attachments did not make it through (please resend). These "goiters" or tumors are not uncommon in captive freshwater rays... and almost always can be corrected with the addition of iodine/iodide to the animals foods. Please look to the fish stores, online suppliers for such supplements and administer them to the fish's foods ahead of feeding. Bob Fenner>

Possible growth on Fresh water Stingray (URGENT) - Follow-up
Thank you so much for your reply.  Here are the attached files.
<Mmm, on viewing the image, I'm more inclined to think this may be a case of a prolapsed colon... I would cut back on this fish's food and offer it only smallish meaty food items (bite size or smaller). Bob Fenner>

Sand for FW stingrays? (10/19/03)
Hi,
<Hi! Ananda here tonight>
I have had a hard time finding sand substrate for Fresh water stingrays. Right now it is bare bottomed. I know it has to be silica free sand. It also can't raise the Ph of my tank.  I called some companies that make play sand. They all have silica in the sand just not in a free dust form. I read about silver sand on a UK website but no one states has heard about it. What do you recommend.
<Not silver sand. It's silvery due to mica, which could scratch the ray's stomach. You will probably need to look for sand from a specialist fish store. You might also check with some of the companies that package sand for aquarium use, and have your local shop order some for you (since the companies are unlikely to sell directly to hobbyists).>
thanks,
john
<Sorry I couldn't be of more help! --Ananda>

Tea Cup Stingray
Thanks gage, I will do it. Actually I'm curious, are the tea cup rays very hard to keep and what can they be put with if anything?
<Tea Cup Rays are difficult to keep, they require excellent water quality, 0 ammonia 0 nitrite, and next to 0 nitrate, they are very sensitive.  They also need a large tank a 4'x4' foot print would be as small as I would go, the height is not as important.  Tank mates would need to be moderately large and stay high in the tank.  There is a book by Richard Ross on freshwater Sting Rays. -Gage>

Motoro ray with cloudy eyes
Hello, I am first time user of your service and fairly confident in my abilities as an aquarist, but happened to be reading your section on stingrays and thought maybe you could help me in determining whether a film (very light) over my motoro rays eyes could be dangerous.... this condition just appeared today and to most people would not even be noticeable...
<Anything that deviates from the norm is cause for concern, or at least research.>
I pay very close attention to my fish and as he is one the more expensive fish I am always concerned about his safety...
<Understood!  And what an incredible animal - one of my favorites.>
He is housed in a 100gal tank with a wet dry and a magnum 330 canister he has been in there for about two years and was treated twice for ich due to bad feeder stock that didn't seem to have it when they were introduced into the tank...
<Ugh....  Do try to find suitable foods aside from 'feeder' fish - all too often illnesses do move from feeders to the fed - as you have experienced.  This is often the death of large predatory fish.  Either breed your feeders yourself so you know they're safe, or find suitable alternatives (of which there are many).>
Tankmates are an albino Oscar that was introduced very small and has never picked on him a fire eel and a small (new) Bala shark that exhibits no signs of illness
<This really is a bit much bioload IMO - and not quite the greatest mix of species, at least for the ray, which does best in a pH of lower than 6.0, to even as low as 5.0, really, too low for the other species you have.  Rays really do best in species-only tanks, or at least with fish that tolerate or thrive in such low pH as well.>
the water quality is good and the second treatment for ich will be finished in 2 days... neither time he was treated for ich did he actually show signs but it was preventive....
<May I asked what med you used?  Rays are scaleless, sensitive fish, and many/most meds are pretty harsh on them.  If you never saw ich in the tank, I don't believe it should have been necessary to treat for it.  Cloudy/filmy eyes are usually the result of some water parameter being out of whack - specifically, what are your pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate readings?  Extremely sensitive animals such as these rays will show effects of environmental factors being out of whack at even extremely low levels.  A water change is probably the very best remedy available for you.>
as far as Popeye I honestly don't know of that ever affecting a ray but I suppose its possible... I will be paying very close attention to him for the next few days and if there is any information you may have for me it would be greatly appreciated... as I'm sure you well know many common fish medications can harmful to rays and if he does have Popeye do you think a broad spectrum like maracyn2 would be safe for him
<I seriously doubt that you're dealing with Popeye.  Truly, cloudy eyes usually clear up after a good water change or two.  I'm guessing it might be related to a nitrate problem, in this case, as you already mentioned feeder fish and have large predators in the tank.  Check your water, fix if necessary.  -Sabrina>
Thank you.

Questions re freshwater stingrays
I have just read your article on freshwater rays and found it very interesting.
I would like to keep one my self but was wondering if my tank is suitable, it is 8 foot wide 2 foot top to bottom and 18 inches back to front.
The motoro is the one I like and I need to verify that it only gets a maximum 14" wide disc.
Also could you suggest suitable tankmates for this species.
Thanks for your time and I look forward to hearing from you.
Yours Matt Milburn.
<This size, shape tank should work out very well. I've seen displays with many types of fishes kept with freshwater rays, including peaceful, slow-moving fishes like angels and discus, and even shoals of small South American tetras (Characoids) of many types. I do encourage you to delve into the popular (and possibly scientific) literature on the habitat and distribution of the species you're interested and definitely select for a "biotopic" presentation (physical, chemical and social/biological make-up mimicking their natural environs). Bob Fenner>

Freshwater stingray disease/injury
Dear Sirs
I have 6 Motoro stingrays in my home aquarium (I am currently keeping 6 tanks at home).
2 of my stingrays have developed some scratches in the edge of the disk.
I have another 2 whose edges have become whitish (the skin around the edges of the disk).
<Usually evidence of falling/inappropriate water quality or mechanical injury. Do you have "sharp" gravel or rocks in their tank?>
For both cases I have tried adding salt to the water, rising the temperature (from 26 centigrade to 30 centigrade), y also used CHLORAMPHENICOL, MALACHITE GREEN, FUROXONE, etc. but nothing seems to work.
They don't get worse; but they don't get well either.
<What tests for water quality do you have? I would check pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate for sure. Also, I don't encourage salt additions to these fishes water... not much in the Amazon period>
Please let me know which would be the way to cure my stingrays. Or if they will have to live with this problem for the rest of their lives...
<Not a good idea to ignore this warning sign. Check your water quality for metabolites... is the water soft, acidic? Have you read the materials posted on WWM re FW stingrays? Please see here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwstingrays.htm
and the linked FAQs (above, in blue) re this family>
Your kind assistance will be highly appreciated
Best rgds, Carlos
<Be chatting, Bob Fenner>

A minor inaccuracy (Potamotrygonidae id)
Hello,
I wanted to say that I love the magazine. I also wanted to bring up one thing though. In the May 2003 issue focused on livebearers, in Fenner's article "Livebearing Fishes, For Aquariums... and Not" there is a picture listed as Ocellate river stingray, Potamotrygon motoro. The fish in the picture is actually P. henlei or P. leopoldi, more likely the latter, but from the picture it's impossible to tell. P. motoro is an extremely variable species, but the black body is a tell-tale that it's not motoro. 
I'm currently keeping a group of 3 Leopoldi's, http://scott.aaquaria.com has some of my pictures of them. Also, I wanted to ask if you were planning any freshwater stingray articles in the next few months, they're quite colorful, and very interesting, and are somewhat overlooked as aquarium fish, in my opinion.
S. Allen Greeson
Colorado Springs, CO
<Thank you for this input. Will check, change in my notes. Bob Fenner>
From: "David E. Boruchowitz" <editor@tfh.com>
Judging from FishBase, I'd vote for leopoldi. Or is this a case of extreme variability in coloration?<Actually... please see: http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/SpeciesSummary.cfm?ID=53761&genusname=Potamotrygon&speciesname=henlei Bob Fenner>

FW Stingray ids
Robert,
Hello. I wasn't quiet expecting a reply that quick, but yeah, most likely leopoldi. They can kind of go back and forth, generally leopoldi is black and white where as henlei is greyish black and gold spots. It varies a lot, and the best trait I know of is that henlei has it's spots extending to the underside of the body, leopoldi doesn't. It may all be a moot point, there are arguments that they're the same species, and that leopoldi is just the regional variant for xingu, since it's endemic. who knows... Stingray taxonomy is in just as much disarray as most south American fishes.
Scott
<I checked the few pix on fishbase.org and the P. henlei is dark-bodied and similarly spotted to what I have (tentatively) identified on WetWebMedia.com: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwstingrays.htm
and fishbase: http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/SpeciesSummary.cfm?ID=53761&genusname=Potamotrygon&speciesname=henlei...
agreed re the systematics of this family. 
Bob Fenner>

FW Stingray ids
The one on WetWebMedia may or may not be henlei, I'm going off Ross's publication with Schafer, Freshwater Rays, it's by Aqualog and Freshwater stingrays from south America by Ross for my species ID's. It doesn't make much of a difference except henlei is a bit smaller than leopoldi apparently.
<Don't know that the arrangement of spots isn't different, but just wanted to state where my identification came from. Bob Fenner>

FW Stingrays & Ich
If you can help that would be great. We have a 180 Gallon Tank that we are getting ready to put in 3 freshwater stingrays.  
<Three may be too many for this tank. It’s recommended that you have at least a 100 gallon tank for a single ray so you will probably want no more than 2 in the tank you have. To keep the tank from looking bare you can add some larger mid to upper water column fish that like the same water parameters.>
We are trying to cycle the tank now but we have a small problem.  The fish that we have in there one of them got Ick and died the others that are in there have maybe one spot on the fin, but they are ok. The water that we have used to set this tank up was stingray water as well as drinking water delivery. We are treating the tank with the Ick medicine and we have been doing this for the last 4 days. We were told that a stingray is immune to this disease,
<Unfortunately, you were misinformed. These fish can and do get Ich and once they have it it’s very hard to treat successfully. Please read http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwstingrays.htm and the related FAQ’s for more info.>
but what we want to know is if we put the ray in there now with the med would anything happen to him and with the fish having a small dot on him would that be a problem?
<Yes, it will be a problem.>
We don’t want for him to die but since he has a film on him and we are also treating the tank with salt as well.  Please help me on your opinion everyone tells us a million different things so what we are looking for is an outsiders thought.
<See the above link, it should answer your questions.>
Thank you, Suzanne Dubman
<You're welcome! Ronni>

Re: FW Stingrays & Ich
Good morning,
<Greetings>
I’m very sorry for the bother, but I do have other questions for you. We went to the pet store and found out that one of the blk and white cat fishes in the tank was also scratching on the walls as well as very few dots on the Garibaldi’s fin... They said to us that all you have to do is scrap it off.
<That’s not true. The fish need to be treated for Ich, scraping it off isn’t going to do the job. With advice like this, I would be finding another store to buy from.>
He also did just buy an armored catfish, is there anything that he needs to understand about this fish that is different.
<There are a lot of different “armored” catfishes so I don’t know exactly what you have. But you can find a wealth of information on all of them by simply searching the web with your favorite search engine or by using the Google search box at http://www.wetwebmedia.com >
Plus, would you happen to know anything on the Asian longtail stingray this is the one that he is buying as well as the Florida one with the pointed nose the eyes are very realistic he is just way to kewl.
<See above, you should be able to find oodles of info on these by searching for them.>
I have to say with all of the research that I have been doing I will be a pro in stingrays soon...
<Ronni>

Re: FW Stingrays & Ich
Thank you Ronni...  He is also treating them as well he did a full dose of CopperSafe on Friday and just got the other fish on Sunday so it is ok cause he was in the same tank as the others at the store with the ick.. So now he is being treated as well...  Also, what other place in IL has stingrays for sale? I do feel as if we should go to a different place as well but we don’t know of any... Can you help me on this one as well?
<Sorry, I’m in MT so don’t know of any reputable stores in IL. Ronni>

Re: FW Stingrays & Ich
Wow!  Thank you for all of your help. So tell me one thing why is Scott's pets shop saying that they are immune to these diseases and why did he say they live in these through their life?  
<Unfortunately, many stores are only interested in making their profit and will tell a prospective buyer pretty much anything. Many other stores also have untrained staff that will answer a question without actually knowing the proper answer. However, it is true that they live with the disease to a certain degree throughout their life, all fish carry this disease and it’s present in every system but only at certain times does a true outbreak of it occur. And unfortunately, there’s no way of knowing what is going to bring it on. The best thing to do is fully research (via books, the web, etc.) any prospective purchases before committing to them.>
We are using Ick cure for the treatment right now is that ok?
<Should be fine as long as the stingrays aren’t in there yet.>
How long should we treat it? The bottle does say that we go a teaspoon per gal but I was told only do half?
<If you have scaleless or small scaled fishes then a half dose is correct. Always treat as long as the bottle says to.>
We have the Eheim filter took the carbon out so when we are done treating the tank in which should we treat until gone or only what the bottle says which is 3 days and how should we take the medicine out.
<If the fish still have ich after the 3 days then you will need to do a partial water change (25%) and treat for another 3 days. Once the fish no longer have the disease, do another partial water change and replace your carbon.>
Should we just put in the carbon filter and let that do the trick and if so how long until we can actually wait to put in the fish?  
<Even with a water change and replacing the carbon you should wait at least 3 weeks before adding any new livestock to the tank. This is to make sure the ich doesn’t come back. And all new additions should be quarantined in a separate tank for 2-4 weeks to prevent them introducing a disease to the main tank.>
Should we also consider this part of the cycle?   
<The three week period between the cure of the disease and the time it’s safe to add fish can be considered part of the cycle time. Just make sure your ammonia and nitrites are at 0ppm before adding any new livestock.>
Please help me out. .. That web site is great. I told him and he was thankful but mad at the entire situation due to he is getting impatient.
<Don’t let his impatience rush you into your purchase. Your ultimate goal here is to have a healthy and happy tank that you can enjoy. This won’t happen if your LFS rushes you into things. If he keeps pushing let him know very clearly that you will buy and add the stingrays when you are certain that they will be safe and if he continues to push let him know that you can always take your business elsewhere. A store should be concerned with the welfare of their stock above all else.>
Any help for the patience....
<Good luck and if I can help more please let me know. Ronni>

Re: FW Stingrays & Ich
Hello there,
<Hello>
One more question. Will that medicine really hurt the ray and if he does put the ray in now after the carbon filter takes place over night what do you think the chances will be to live.  Again it is a brand new tank and he did take the bad fish out when he was sick as the other ones seem fine except for one spot on two of them. That is actually it.  So tell me please.  He is very frustrated with this whole situation cause he feels as of he got shafted from the place.  They should have not given him any other fish that where from a different tank then the stingrays to cycle the tank.  Really he spent a lot of money on this.  
<I certainly wouldn’t try putting the ray in this quickly. You are running the risk of the ray being killed by the medication and/or the ray getting ich. Even if the remaining fish only show one spot they are still infected. A healthy fish will not have any ich spots. Patience is the key here. Ronni>

Re: FW Stingrays & Ich
Believe me I do agree with you on that patient work, but he just does not seem to have any at this point.  This is something that he really wants and is working towards here but the problems just keep on coming.  What else can he put into the tank and maybe help the tank to go faster?
<Until the disease is cleared up and has been gone for several weeks it is not advisable to add anything at all. And anything that is added after that should be fully quarantined for several weeks to prevent this happening again. Ronni>

Freshwater stingray livestock mix
Thanks Bob,
I was thinking of getting (in the future) a freshwater tea cup stingray to add to my underwater world, I know my LFS can get them but!!!
I don't know if they will get along with the morays or the Bichirs what do you think ?
<Need to remove the "stinger"... and they do/can "grow back">
I know if I start changing the salinity of the moray tank the stingray as well as the Bichirs may not be able to cope with the change , so
another tank will be needed. If I don't need to change the salinity would they coexist or would there be trouble .
<I'd like to (so shall) encourage you to display all three types/species in their own "biotopic set-up"... Really, they all look, act, live their best if kept in the type of settings they're found in... all distinct in this case>
I'll read up on the brackish info you sent and go from there.
  thanks for all your help I'm sure I'll need more before I'm done .I did luck out and get a real good photo of the larger moray , if you want to add it your site photos please feel free.
   THANKS AGAIN
     DAVE
<Please do send it along if you think it will help, inspire others. Bob Fenner>

Freshwater Tank Set-Up
Hi,
<Hello!>
I have a 180 gallon tank well decorated with large lava rocks and 1/4 inch gravel. There is 12 inches of head room and 12 inches of room in the front of the tank. The reason being is that I raised two silver Arowanas from 2 inches in size with their sacs to over 2&1/2 feet in size easily just making regular water changes. After 5 years one of my Arowanas got sick from some internal illness and died. The other Arowana couldn't handle the change became very jumpy and committed suicide breaking the over head glass ending up on the floor. Because I got rid of all my other fish for the ever growing Arowanas, I found myself with no fish. After a two year break I want to start up a new tank with one Arowana, fire eel, l lung fish, Polypterus (if I find the colorful one I want). The difference being is that I want to add a stingray (small species), I willing to change the gravel to sand and leave 18 inches of space in front of the tank. I'm would like to know if this setup is suitable for the ray, the reason I'm keeping the rocks is I really want eels in my tank. If you don't think the ray will have enough room I'll let the ray go and concentrate on the other fish.          
<Rick, IMO a ray is a bad choice all the way around. Yes they are gorgeously menacing, but these guys don't live long in captivity regardless of the setup. Keeping rays is an exercise in frustration for most all hobbyist...unless you are really willing to go the extra mile, I suggest...skip the ray. David Dowless>
thanks a lot.  Rick 
<You're welcome! David Dowless>  

You can call him Ray (FW) cuz' that's what he is
I've had my ray for about a month now.  He is a fresh water ray from the St. Johns River in Florida.  He used to eat from our hand during the first week, however, we can't seem to catch him eating now.  It doesn't look like he's touching the stuff we leave in there.  We're giving him tetracycline that our pet store ray specialist gave us.  We've been keeping the filter off because the medicine, but have been doing 10% water changes every other day.  His pH is at about 8, he's got a glass bottom (no gravel).  The problem is that he doesn't seem to be eating, and his Left eye is clouded over.  He's been on his medicine for about four days now.  He looks a lot better than he did a week ago except for his eye and eating problem.  Please Help us, thank you.
<Hi Luke, Please head over to this link and do what you can to provide the conditions mentioned there. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwstingrays.htm  Make sure you read down to the bottom of the page to see the disease section. These guys need a lot of room, filtration, low pH (below 7) and are sensitive to some meds.  More at the link above.  Craig><<This is actually not a permanent freshwater denizen... RMF>>

"Lookin' for (fw) Rays in all the right places..."
Can you give me information on where I can purchase a freshwater ray? We live in TN
<Mmm, you might get lucky by asking your local fish shops if they can special order you one... Otherwise, there are etailers that deal in odd/rarer aquatics you can contact via the Net. Do read the survey piece and FAQs we have stored on the family here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwstingrays.htm
Bob Fenner>

Arowana and Ray Biotope Tank
Hi,
I'm setting up a 225 gallon Arowana tank with Rays.
<Even though 225 gallons in rather large, it is still a rather small tank in comparison to the fish you selected. I do not think you could safely stock more than two of each.>
I would like to use a few live plants to make them a little more comfortable.
<I think the Rays would wreck any live plants.>
If I am only using a few plants how much fluorite should be used
<I would stick to a sand bottom for the comfort of the Rays.>
and what kind of plants.
<Perhaps you could grow some Java Fern attached to something. There would be little danger in it becoming up rooted.>
Thanks, Dave
<Good luck! -Steven Pro>

Re: Arowana and Ray Biotope Tank
Thanks for the info and the 225 is only for 2 years until we build our dome home where there new tank will be the circumference of 30' by 3' wide 4' tall with a main tank connected at one end 10' x 4' x 4'
<Wow! Truly impressive concept. Do send us pictures when done. -Steven Pro>

Freshwater stingrays
I have just recently gotten some freshwater ray and I was wonder what the affects the rays poison has on human (just in cases). Can you give me some information or guide me to a web site with some info.
Thanks,
Chad Almquist
<Please see here and the references beyond: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwstingrays.htm
Bob Fenner>

Poisonous or not?
I was wondering if the Potamotrygon orbignyi stingrays I have just gotten were poisonous or not.
<Not poisonous (as in if you eat it you'd be toxified), but these freshwater rays are indeed dangerously venomous... their sharp tail spines are formidable weapons, physically and chemically, much like the many Stingrays of the seas. Bob Fenner>
Please Respond,
Chad Almquist

Freshwater Stingray... FW
Bob,
Thank for the info regarding fw porcupine puffer. I will ask the LFS to clarify the species. Another question. fw stingray. I saw these fishes at another LFS. Can it co-existence with fw moray eel? 
<I would not keep them together. Please see the coverage on these species on WetWebMedia.com>
Does it need brackish environment or just freshwater? What steps to follow to pick the right stingray?
<Oh, obviously you aren't familiar with WWM. Please see here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwstingrays.htm
Bob Fenner>

Stingray
Hi..!
I have a freshwater stingray a laticeps one as far as I know, it was OK but yesterday night I saw him upside down, as soon as I saw I took it on the right way and push a little bit by hand in order to have flow on his gills, immediately responded..! My question is: Is it normal to happen or there is something to do about? is similar reaction like happen with sharks? Best regards. Carlos Gorgon
<it sounds peculiar and perhaps unhealthy. Can you confirm that dissolved oxygen is high enough? Is the tank large enough too (minimum 90 gallon for a juvenile... much larger for adult. Sand bottom is sugar fine and there are no visible sores on undersize? Do research the archives here on WWM for pertinent articles and FAQs to lend insight. Kindly, Anthony>

Re: Stingray, II (Oxygen Level)
Thanks, how should I confirm that dissolved oxygen is high enough?
<There are test kits by various manufacturers made to test oxygen levels. Look around the various online sites for them. -Steven Pro>
Best regards. Attn. Carlos Gorgon

Stingray, FW, test kit units of measure
Hi..!
I have three freshwater stingrays, I tested the water before put them in, reading form ammonia and nitrites were low but on your site are referred to ## ppm but I have a scale of mg/ltr so which is the right amount of nitrites in mg/ltr for this stingrays ( teacup )
<The units of measure, milligrams per liter and parts per million are equivalents... the same. The concentration you want is 0.00, none for nitrites, ammonia... and as little measurable nitrate as possible. Please see here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fwstingrays.htm and the links beyond. 
Bob Fenner>
Best regards.
Attn. Carlos Gorgon

Two questions
First of all thanks for your last advice and fast response, I will get the PH and nitrite tests.
1) I have a Gymnothorax polyuranodon (freshwater eel) and some times he changes color to a pale one but just happened twice during a month and later he has its original color, is this normal or what could be happening? is eating well, as I see during everyday observation is quite good.
<This is normal... seems to have more to do with "mood" than water quality, other external influences... Not necessarily an indication of trouble>
2) I will get a freshwater stingray soon but I can't find written thinks online about injuries caused by the sting and envenomation, what should I do in case of envenomation or being touch by it sting ( accidentally, of course I will take care of this everyday).
<Please take a read through the Freshwater Stingray article: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fwstingrays.htm
and Injury piece: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/Wound.htm
and we'll be chatting. Bob Fenner>
Best regards.
Attn. Carlos Gorgon

Freshwater Sting Rays
Hi Robert,
I am writing from the South West of England and have recently found out about fresh water stingrays in particular the Motoro. Is this a good choice for beginners? 
<Mmm, not really... venomous... needs quite large quarters (a square meter of bottom space really... subject to damage, bacterial infections. Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fwstingrays.htm >
We have always kept tropical fish but would like something a little less ordinary! I have heard that you need 1 meter square per Ray is this enough? 
<Wow! I must be getting on... talk about coincidence of "pat answers">
How hard are they too look after? What sort of money is a good price to pay?
<I would rather direct you to more suitable, hardier "oddball" aquatic livestock. Please do read through the WetWebMedia.com site here... write if there is a group missing (there are many), and I'll get on to it>
If you would be kind enough to help me out with this info it would be much appreciated.
Best regards,
Nathan Potts.
<Be chatting my friend. Bob Fenner>

A question of ethics regarding freshwater stingrays...
Hello again Bob!
I'm sorry I've become such a pest - hopefully you don't view me as such. I had a disappointing experience at Wal-Mart a few weeks ago. They had an empty tank that was labeled "baby freshwater stingrays". 
<What? I'm very surprised... that this retail chain would carry such animals.>
I inquired about them, since I was surprised that Wal-Mart would carry such livestock. The employee said that the stingrays sell so fast, that they're hardly ever in stock (which is good, I suppose, since the tank in which they're kept is about the size of a shoe box). The next week, a co-worker and fellow hobbyist told me she bought one of the stingrays the previous night, on a whim (she had a 40-gallon tank that was ready for livestock). 
<Arrgghhh!>
I gave her my lecture on buying livestock at our Wal-Mart (horrible conditions, at least two dead fish in every tank at all times, and uneducated, unconcerned employees in the pet section), and further expressed concern to her about Wal-Mart stocking these animals (which she identified as Potamotrygon orbignyi after I showed her your article on freshwater rays). Of course it was too late, and the ray happened to die a week later. (Please note that I am not commenting on the Pet Section Employees in ALL Wal-Mart stores, but merely on my numerous experiences with the one store in my area.)
<I understand. Friends of mine (the Bailey brothers here in San Diego) told me years back that Wal-Mart was their biggest customer. Will be sending this note off to them as well as WMT corporate... Not smart... touchy, venomous organisms being offered by such an icon of commerce>
I really want to do something to influence our Wal-Mart to stop selling these animals. My reasons are these:
1.) In my opinion, Wal-Mart shouldn't sell fish if the employees know nothing about them. These are live animals and deserve to be cared for correctly.
2.) Wal-Mart doesn't provide adequate space to house their fish, and this results in a high death rate. They also buy their fish from apparently less-than-reputable suppliers, and I'd be willing to bet that 25% of their livestock shows up with signs of disease and is still put in the display tanks.
3.) Given the reasons above, if this store can't keep a tank full of guppies healthy, then they shouldn't be selling freshwater rays.
4.) As your article states, freshwater rays are venomous. The employees are not aware of this, and therefore the customer is not informed. I would think the very least they could do is let the customer know that he or she is about to purchase a venomous animal. Not only would it be safer for the customer and allow him or her to make a more informed decision about the purchase, but I would think Wal-Mart would like to cover their own
"posterior" in the case of a lawsuit resulting from an injury. People seeing these rays in the store usually know nothing about them, and may assume that they're as user-friendly as most of the other fish sold there.
<Agreed, of course... no one should be doing this. Wal-Mart's corporate contact information: :
Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. Bentonville, Arkansas 72716-8611
If you're a customer, call 1-800-WAL-MART
If you're an investor or analyst, call 501-273-8446
If you're a journalist, call 501-273-4314
The message I sent them: Are you folks really offering Freshwater Stingrays for sale to the public? Not a good idea on a few counts... they're not hardy, easily lost... and quite venomous. Please see the coverage, FAQs posted on this family of fishes on our website: http://wetwebmedia.com/fwstingrays.htm
Bob Fenner>
Do I have reason for concern?
<You do as a human, citizen, concerned individual, possible shareholder...>
What would be the best course of action?
<Write, call their offices. This company is blessed with some of the best minds, people in business... It is no "accident" that they are the best, largest companies of their genre.>
Thank you in advance for any insight you may have.
Sincerely,
Gina
<Will be investigating. Bob Fenner>

A question of ethics regarding freshwater stingrays... an incident of their sale at Wal-Mart?
I spoke with Nevin Bailey (a supplier to WMT, located in San Diego, California). He assures me that Wal-Mart does not, would not sell anything dangerous to the public. They don't offer reptiles, even hamsters/guinea pigs... for this same set of rationale... And definitely the family is illegal to import/export in many States... 
Bob Fenner

Re: A question of ethics regarding freshwater stingrays...
Hi Bob!
Thanks for the update and for taking part in the pursuit of this matter. I'm confused, though - is it possible this store in my area "slipped through the cracks" in selling this particular species? 
<Very doubtful, but Nevin Bailey (a supplier to WMT) did mention this possibility... These are NOT part of the 89 sku's that are corporate approved... Perhaps some "loose cannon" saw a deal, wanted to wow and zow folks at "their" fish department/location... Real trouble if so.>
I plan on pursuing it as soon as I can make a good I.D. on the animal. I may try to snap a picture so I can get your opinion. In the meantime, I am going to make a respectful comment to Wal-Mart's national customer service line about the overall lousy condition of the livestock in our area's store. Once again, thank you so much for your support.
Sincerely,
Gina
<Be chatting... and do look at "Today's FAQs": http://wetwebmedia.com/dailyq&a.htm
(hopefully get to soon) re Nevin's input. Bob Fenner>

Info on T cup stingray
Hi,
I'm considering purchasing a freshwater stingray. Could you give some information on these beautiful animals? I currently have a 50 gallon community tank with Bala sharks, tetras, ghost catfish, a Cory, and 2 Plecos. Thanks
Jeff Lawson
<Thanks for the prompting... Wrote a review of this group (the family Potamotrygonidae... I'll place this article and the accompanying images on the www.WetWebMedia.com site later today (or tomorrow when I move off this FAQ onto the new (to be made) FAQs pages on FW Stingrays... 
These South Americans can be gotten and kept... but most get pretty big for captive use... and a fifty is small... and it will be eating your other fishes... Bob Fenner>