White cloud with growing black markings
Evening all,
<Good evening, Rosa!  Sabrina here tonight>
You've always been helpful and on target in the past and after doing a lot of searching, with no answers, thought you might come to the rescue, yet again...
<Thank you for the kind words - and we'll sure try>
I have a question about white cloud minnows- I have had 2 for about a year now, they are yellow and white, with black specks and markings.  Hearty, fun, and social.  They share a planted tank (15 gallon fresh) with some otos, harlequin rasboras and cherry barbs.  Recently I added 3 clowns to fish tank who at first were pretty dominant and stressed out other fish for a while- now they are all alright with each other and the clowns sit at bottom of tank, or hang out in driftwood, and leave other fish alone.
<I assume you mean clown loaches?  Clown loaches get enormous, over time.  You might want to consider a smaller loach species, or plan on upgrading tank size eventually.  At least clown loaches are very slow growers, so you're okay for now.>
Soon after all this I noticed that the markings on one of my white clouds were getting darker- the black specks were getting deeper in color and actually bigger. Nothing else wrong with fish, no ich or anything like that- just that its original black specks - actually one in particular on its back- is just a lot longer.  The fish is fine- eats, hangs out with other fish, but I wondered about this.  Is there some kind of skin disease or perhaps stress, or maybe just 'normal'- perhaps markings just increase with age?
<It's hard to tell without seeing the fish; if there's any way you could get us a picture, that'd be great.  Otherwise, do a google search on their Latin name, Tanichthys albonubes, and compare yours with pictures of others; that may at least help you to see if the coloration is normal or not.>
If you could help me out here I'd appreciate it- I'm always checking on this fish and just a bit worried- would like to know that it's nothing- or, if it is something, what I should do.  Thanks,  Rosa Haritos

White cloud with growing black markings - part II
Hi Sabrina- thanks for response.
<No prob.>
I'm actually going to SF, CA for business trip tomorrow and I won't be back until 25th- I CAN send a photo of fish and will, when I get back.
<Ah, welcome to my neck of the world.>
Haven't found ANYTHING using Latin Name- tried it-- just pix of ich's disease- and I know it's not that.
<Try this:  http://images.google.com/images?q=Tanichthys+albonubes&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search .  Should give you lots of pics of White Clouds.>
Yup, clown loaches. It was actually someone at WetWeb who told me they are great snail eaters- and they get big, but as you say, slowly. So I bought 3 - so they wouldn't be lonely, and GUESS WHAT- no way did they eat snails!!
<Now THAT is stunning.  I've NEVER seen a clown loach turn its nose up at snails!!  It might just be that they needed some time to settle in, first; also, don't feed them other food for a few days, and they should dig right in.>
Even when I crushed them and put then right next to them--so I had to pick at snails for a whole week to get rid of an infestation. I asked LFS and they said they would exchange for zebra loach- which is suppose to be more aggressive re snails, but peaceful for the tank--and smaller.
<Well, smaller, yes; but I think these have pretty much the same temperament as clown loaches.  Mine certainly do, anyway.  And though they certainly chow down on snails (took all of two weeks for three zebra loaches in my 72g to rid me of all my snails), clown loaches are reportedly much better snail eradicators.>
BUT my son, who is 6, fell in love with these fish and pleaded not to trade em. so I'm stuck.
<Heh, at least you're stuck with a nice type of fish!>
Thanks re white minnow - I'll send photo when I get back. If you find anything in meantime, I'd appreciate it.
<Well, I'm afraid it's not so much a matter of finding anything; there's just so many things that it could be.  Stress, normal coloration, etc.  I do look forward to helping you figure this out once you've got a picture for us!  Wishing you well,  -Sabrina>
Thanks again, best  Rosa

New Fish, What Kind To Get?
What if i were to forget about the Betta Fish and just do tetras? Is there a fish that will go well in a 5 gallon tank that will do well tetras? All i want is to have sum pretty fish in my tank that will do well! Also what are the appropriate levels for he ammonia and nitrates or whatever and if there are high how do i take care of that?
<<Hello. Good fish to keep with bettas would be white cloud mountain minnows. Nice, red fins and pretty stripes. The appropriate levels for ammonia and nitrites are zero. For nitrates, as low as possible, not higher than 50ppm. If they are higher, you need to do more partial water changes until they are within range. -Gwen>>

Pregger White Clouds?
I have three white clouds (along with some other community fish) in a heavily planted 29 gallon tank. Two of three appear "fat" with a very robust abdomen.
The third looks skinny (healthy, just not fat). My kids keep asking if they are pregnant. I had to tell them yes but I really have no idea. They have been
increasing in girth for the past month or so. If they are pregnant what can I expect? Brian
<<Hello. White clouds will generally breed in cooler water, around 70F. The female will lay eggs on plant leaves. Once you have seen the fish spawn, you should remove the parents (and other fish) so they don't eat the fry. The fry will be tough to keep alive unless you can provide micro-foods (microscopic sized). If it interests you, there are websites where you can find info on growing foods like infusoria, live baby brine shrimp, etc, all the basic feeding info for fish fry. The females will grow round bellies when they are full of eggs, but there is no guarantee that the male is fertilizing the eggs. If the fish are not pregnant, there is the chance they have internal infections. Surveillance is good, watch to be sure the scales do not protrude. If the fish develop the pine-cone signs of dropsy, euthanasia would be required. -Gwen>>

Long-finned White Clouds
Dear Robert,
<Hello Ed. Sorry for the late response. Have been out diving with friends in the Galapagos... now in Quito>
Always admired your articles! Just stumbled onto your site on the web.
<Ah, glad we have finally met>
My name is Ed Stansbury. I was a contributing editor for FAMA back in the 80s and 90s, but quit writing for them when they refused to pay for an article of mine they published.
<Too typical... you may have heard that Norm Ridker (Nee Fancy, Bowtie Publications... owners of AFM) has bought FAMA recently...>
I've had about 75 articles published through the years in different mag.s. I have bred regular white clouds since the 1950s. Recently, I have tried long-finned white clouds repeatedly, but always get normal-finned young.....hundreds and hundreds of them. Tried as much as 6-months grow out, just to be sure it wasn't a developmental thing. I'd still like to breed them. Any ideas on what's going on? Any trick to them?
<Could be, and I suspect this is, a simple recessive homozygous trait... have you had occasion to breed the F1's with each other? Should be about a quarter that are long-finned...>
Sincerely,
Ed Stansbury
<Cheers, Bob Fenner>

Aggressive Female White Cloud
Hey guys,
Me again... you were so wonderful answering me last time, and I hate writing to you again, but I can't find anything on the site about aggressive female White Clouds! Any comments you may have on my entire setup would be helpful to me, too.
So I was the one with the unheated, filtered, rectangular 10-gallon tank with two big branchy plants, six little tiny red-tipped plants (all the plants are fake), and two large reef-like rocks. It has three White Cloud Mountain Minnows: a little male, and two big females. They seem to be thriving except one thing: Daphnie, the largest female, is a real jerk. At first she swam with the male, and chased the other female away whenever she saw her. Now however, both females (led by violent Daphnie) have ganged up on my little male. She nips him all over his body whenever she sees him, and actively chases him whenever he isn't hiding, which is often because he wants to school with them.
A week ago she actually managed to rip one of his two little fins (the front clear ones that he uses to swim)! The fin is sticking out from his body, and the body itself has a little swollen pink place where the fin joins it. The fin itself is ripped in half, and the smaller half is blood red sometimes, like its bleeding -- serious damage. I guess it's possible that this was caused by something other than Daphnie, but it just looks like a wound to me instead of a parasite or something, and I can't imagine what else would have done it. He can still swim with this fin, and acts normal, but it looks painful and doesn't seem to be healing because she picks at this place in particular when she bites at him.
So here's my deal: the ultimate goal for this setup was to put in a heater (70 degrees or so since clouds like it cool?),
<Better to have a/the heater to keep temperature steady>
and then put my male Betta into it. I got him from a pet store with fin rot and he's been healing in a quarantine tank (although the rot seems to be gone, his edge of his tail is bumpy looking, as if it healed to a irregular length -- does this sound like its healed, or just in remission?
<Could be fine>
There is no black stuff any more, although the edge is darker than his body color of blue, and the tail has normal looking little white peaks that look like bones). I tried him in with the minnows for a day or two just to see, and they all seemed to get along with him (he chased them for a while then stopped caring about them), but this was before Daphnie started getting aggressive. 
Do you think putting more white clouds in there would help alleviate her aggression towards this male?
<Likely so>
If so, what gender do you think they should be?
<A mix... at least one more male>
I don't know how many more will fit into a tank like this, especially once a male Betta is introduced. Alternately, do you think I should just take Daphnie back to the store?
<Maybe>
I hate to do that, as I like her a lot, but she seems to be the main problem here. Until then, should I isolate the wounded male? 
<If it is continuing to be harassed, yes>
I'd put him in the quarantine tank with the Betta, but I'm afraid that without plants to hide behind, the Betta might hurt him. Maybe I could put the Betta in the normal tank and the minnow in quarantine...
Any advice would be appreciated!
Amy and her somewhat dysfunctional fish
<A simple salt addition will likely serve to help heal the one Whitecloud. Bob Fenner> 

White Cloud with Pointy Belly?
Hi guys/gals,
<Amy>
Thanks for your help -- do you reply directly to e-mails as well as posting replies on your wonderful site?
<Yes, both>
I've been keeping 3 white cloud mountain minnows (a boy and two girls) in an unheated, well-planted 10-gallon with filtration for about a month now. They are the only 3 fish in there and they are showing great health as far as I can tell (I've never had white clouds before), very active and interactive with vibrant dark colors, open fins, eat everything I give them. Both females look very ripe, with bloated, round, white bellies.
<This is a great old-timey aquarium fish>
Yesterday I decided to give them some freeze-dried blood worms, since they've only had flake food previously. They gobbled the worms all up. This morning, I noticed that my dominant female (it's odd, she actually beats up on the male and the other female, although I've heard they are generally peaceful) has a pointy belly. She's had a fairly bent spine ever since I got her, and so consequently she's been shaped a little funny since she started appearing ripe, but this is ridiculous -- it looks almost like something inside her is forcing a spot near the center of her belly out towards a point. It definitely doesn't look healthy, and I'm worried the blood worms may have caused her to overeat and explode or something.
<Sounds like it>
She's still acting normally and ate breakfast (by the time I noticed I'd already put flakes in). Do you think I should worry?
Thanks for your help!
Amy and Daphnie the minnow
<I might try the time-tested addition of a teaspoon of Epsom Salt added to the water here... to "move" this object. Bob Fenner>

Re: White Cloud with Pointy Belly?
Hey -- thank you both for your help! No need to reply to this e-mail, but I thought you might like to know that the female White Cloud actually passed the pointy object no problem before I even added Epsom Salt, and now she's back to her normal, moderately aggressive little self. What hardy little fish!! I'd recommend them to anyone!
Thanks again,
Amy and Daphnie the minnow
<Ah, thank you for the positive news update. Tanichthys albonubes are one of my fave freshwater aquarium fishes. Bob Fenner>
 

Not Tetra ID  1/21/06 Due to my significant other suddenly bringing home some fish, and not recalling the exact species or name of the fish, I would appreciate help in identifying a type of tetra.  (The exact fish were not in the store when I went back days later to look.) As you can see in the attached pic, these tetra are silver with a white belly, and a white line, partially clear fins with red color and white tips. I would greatly appreciate any help so I can make sure I am researching the correct fish.  I have searched and found so many different types and sizes of tetra, and it's driving me a little batty. They look almost like bloodfin tetras, but they aren't that silvery or shiny and the red in the tails isn't that deep.  The white line reminds me of some neons I have seen, but they don't have the bright color or the black on the lower half. In the pic is also one of the fish with a bloated belly area, at first we thought it was pregnancy because of the similar situation with the VWS, but I read on here that they are not live-bearers and what to do.  And if it turns out that the tetra is just fat, then that's fine.  The 3 of them were all the same size at time of purchase, we noticed this one was much bigger 3 weeks ago and it hasn't changed size either way since. As I work on that, I would just like to type this fish and ask if the fatter one looks abnormal. I haven't checked water quality yet, and I severely apologize, but I am very new to aquariums and having this thrust upon me, I think we and the fishies are doing pretty well. Thanks to your website (I had previously identified our other fish at the store, Velvet Wag Swordtail), I found help with a surprise birth, and the other great information on VWS.  (We now have 4 healthy baby VWS 8 weeks later.) I apologize for the poor quality of the pics, and say THANK YOU in advance for any help you can give! >> Your photos are fine. Your fish are not tetras. They are white cloud mountain minnows. Tanichthys albonubes. The fat bellied one is the female, the more slender one the male. Oliver.

Breeding Tan's Fish... Whiteclouds  1/1/06
I have recently purchased 2 Tanichthys albonubes (scientific name). Supposedly 1male1female and would like to breed them. They are with some other species (zebra danio, cherry barb and red platies) and I am not sure if I need to separate them from the other species or just let them be. Do you have any tips?
>> You can get all the info you need right here, including breeding tips, - yes, you will need to separate the fish, the other fish will eat eggs and fry.
http://www.fishpondinfo.com/wcmm.htm
Good Luck, Oliver

Aggressive white clouds  9/16/05
Hi Great website! <Thanks!> I need some help. I have two gold fish (one fantail and one normal) and 5 (two were bought 5-6 months ago) These have all been living together peacefully in their now upgraded tank for about 6-7 months. I have recently noticed the older of the white clouds are biting at the tails of my goldfish, who are getting very stressed as I have noticed red streaks in their tails. I now divided the tank in half by a sheet of glass, but of course I don't understand why they were all happy one minute and aggressive the next, please can you help? Thanks Sue  <White clouds are known to show aggression during breeding, do you know the sex of the fish in your tank?  If you have more then one male your poor goldfish may just be caught in the crossfire or could be a target if there is a male who is ready to breed with females in the tank.  I would make sure the white clouds are all female and the aggression should be solved.  I hope this helps and good luck! ~Heather aka LinearChaos>

White mountain minnow behavior  9/2/05
Hi!
  I recently set up a 50 gallon tank and purchased some neon tetras. Much to my surprise, I noticed that one was a white cloud that had gotten in by mistake. Knowing how lonely he must have felt, I purchased 7 more minnows to keep him company. I finally took my minnows out of the quarantine tank and put them in with their long, lost cousin. He seemed pretty happy. However, I noticed two of the larger minnows (he might have been one of them) a few hours later, swimming up and down, side by side, with fins spread.  Are they into synchronized swimming or are they going to tear each other to shreds?!
<Heee! Neither one... well, actually, a sort of synchronized swimming... this is part of their reproductive behavior>
(Maybe I have the only mountain minnow to enjoy solitude!) I have to tried to find the answer but no luck. Thanks for any info you can give me!
Lee Ann Blevins
<Have a friend in town with your family name... Marvin. Cheers, Bob Fenner>

Cool water Companions - 04/04/2006
Hi,
<Hey, Nate!>
I am looking for some companions for some white cloud minnows.  My tank is currently about 68 degrees.  I have a heater, but I understand the white cloud minnows don't like anything above 72.  
<Right, best to keep it cool.>
Right now I have a 75 gallon with about a dozen minnows, so I have room for more fish.  I was thinking of maybe adding another dozen minnows.  For other cooler water companions.  
<Indeed!>
I understand I can add guppies, swordtails, platies and mollies (should I bump the temp up to 72 for these guys?)  
<Actually, I'd skip on these and go for something a little "cooler" (pun heavily intended) like Goodeids or Skiffia.  Don't mix species from the same genus (for example, Ilyodon xantusi can mix with Ameca splendens, but not Ilyodon furcidens).  You can find a number of Goodeids available on http://www.aquabid.com now and often through local aquarium clubs.  In fact, if you're in the SF Bay Area, I know where you can get a few different species pretty easily.  Goodeids are big, beautiful livebearers that not only prefer but ultimately *need* the cooler temperatures that you're working with.  You could probably be okay with some of the less heavily inbred swordtails, maybe mollies as well, but the best bet for fun fish is the Goodeids.  You can also swing something like giant or zebra danios, as these fare quite well in cooler water.>
Are there other fish that like this temperature range (maybe a few bottom dwellers).  
<Bottom dwellers - yeah - try to locate Etheostoma species, if you can; these are North American natives, kinda goby-like and very cute.  Some are *quite* colorful.  I believe there are a number of North American natives available at http://www.jonahsaquarium.com .  For something more "common", your basic weather/dojo loach will appreciate the cooler temps, as will some of the more delicate and bizarre "hillstream loaches".  There are even a few Loricariids that can be found in cooler streams.>
I am most interested in hardy, colorful fish.  Thanks.
<Ilyodon xantusi, Ameca splendens, zebra danios and weather loaches would make fine additions for active, colorful, fun critters.>
Nate Terry
<All the best to you,  -Sabrina>

Breeding Whiteclouds (and most minnows)   1/31/06
Dear XXXX,
<Make that three X's... one of my fave Mexican Beers/Cervezas>
             I have 5 white cloud mountain minnows ( Tanichthys Albonubes ). Should I breed the largest female and the brightest male? If not which ones?
<Best to use one (or two) males, and twice this number of females. Bob Fenner>
                                                                      Much appreciated Austin

White Mountain Cloud Minnows ... health   6/24/06
Dear Bob and Crew:
<<Hello, folks. Tom with you.>>
First, the good news! We have written you several times with questions about our two fantail goldfish, Mojo and Jojo, because they
have had a series of serious health problems. Well, they are doing great! We moved them both into the 20-gallon BiOrb (after all the
black had disappeared from Mojo's tail). They are getting along very well, eating well, and swimming well. Mojo's tail is still a little
shreddy, but we figure it may never grow back. It doesn't seem to be affecting him any -- he zips around even faster than Jojo!
<<Always glad to hear things like this!>>
Now for our question -- we had hoped to have a little shoal of minnows (White Cloud Mountain Minnows) to swim with the goldfish. As
we had combined the two tanks into one, we had the little (5-gallon) tank free, so we purchased 11 minnows and installed them in the tank.
<<Though I give you well-deserved credit for quarantining your new pets, a five-gallon tank is rather small even for these little guys. Anything
pathological that may have been inadvertently introduced - probably internal to one, or more, of the fish - would remain concentrated in this small environment.>>
The first evening, they ate fine and were as active as expected. However, over the next 5 days, we lost them all, one by one. The water tests perfect -- including ammonia. This test was verified at the pet store when we took back the dead fish and a water sample.
They had no explanation for why so many of the fish had died one at a time over 5 days.
<<How long had the LFS kept these fish before you purchased them? Always a good idea to purchase fish that have been in the store for at least a week, two weeks being better. Shipping/handling is incredibly stressful and can/will manifest itself by bringing on disease, potentially of the infectious variety.>>
We feel awful that we have lost all these beautiful little fish. Can you help? What might we be doing wrong?
<<Did you completely disinfect the five-gallon tank after moving your Goldfish? Water changes alone won't guarantee a disease-free tank. You may
want to consider purchasing an inexpensive, ten-gallon tank just to provide a bit more space for any new additions. You might also consider adding some aquarium salt on the next go-around to provide a little preventative assistance with oxygen uptake, etc. This might help relieve the stress that will accompany the trip from the store to home.
A final thought along this line would be to check the store's water parameters against your own. pH differences needn't be overly significant to wreak havoc on already stressed animals.>>
There is no evidence of disease or parasite action. The water tests good, and we did a partial water replacement after every death.
<<This is something that sounds good on the surface of it but may not be the right thing to do from the standpoint of stability. A "hidden" and somewhat
obscure situation that arises with water changes is the introduction of undissolved gases into the tank water. Small changes, particularly in a well-
aerated aquarium, aren't going to be a problem as the gases will dissipate quickly and safely. Water changes that are too large or, too frequent, may not allow enough
time for this to take place, however, especially in a small tank. Food for thought.>>
We have an ammonia detector in the tank, which registers safe. We had expected that we might lose a couple (we would eventually like to have 6-9 minnows in
the BiOrb with the goldfish), but this was shocking. Help!
<<Hopefully, I've given you something to work with and/or consider. One last consideration is that I don't, personally, advocate putting other species in
with Goldfish. Water condition-wise, White Clouds would appear to be pretty good candidates for tankmates with Goldies but there have been instances where
they have turned up as "snacks", especially if the Goldfish are substantially larger than the Minnows. Just something else to keep in mind.>>
Thanks,
Anne and Craig
<<My best to both of you. Tom>>

White Cloud gasping    1/17/06
Hello Gals & Guys of WWM,  I have a problem with a small fish. First some information, hopefully not too much. I have a five gallon bow front, standard hang on filter, with a few low light plants in it, the inhabitants are four white cloud minnows & two Oto's.  I have a heater in the tank and keep it at 72's. I realize this is a bit on the overstocked side, so I've been religiously changing over a gallon of water every four days. Three of the minnows (2 Females/1Male) are swimming around fat & happy, the Oto's are munching on algae and are doing just fine. The tank (up and running a year) was a home of a Betta that died of old age (he was in a 2.5 gal before he got the upgrade), anyway it was well established when I added the white clouds two weeks ago. The water tests (until today) were zero ammonia, zero nitrites, and 5 nitrates.  When I got home today I noticed that one of the white clouds is  listless, open mouth, and seems to be gasping at the surface - so I tested the water and found that the ammonia and nitrites have spiked (5 & .25 respectively).
<Yikes... had you done something to the filtration? I do hope you're treating, storing the new water for changes... for a few days before using. Tapwater is not a very consistent product...>
I immediately changed two gallons of water.
My questions (sorry to take so long) are: Is there anything else I can do to help this little guy out? Why is only one fish affected?
<Mmm, not much to do, unless you have other stable settings to move this fish to... And it's likely the weakest, most susceptible individual...>
Could anything else be wrong with him? I was thinking that the last water change I did yesterday kicked up some gunk (technical term) in the substrate that made the ammonia spike. But then I was thinking that maybe I added too many fish too soon and the tank is cycling again.
<Both possibilities>
OR am I overfeeding these little buggers (they are fun to watch eat, zoom around like torpedoes) and need to cut back?
<This too... small amounts more frequently...>
Thanks for all that you do, I really appreciate the Q & A's every day and everything you do for the hobby. (I also hope my grammar/spelling/writing isn't too atrocious). Ann.
<You're doing fine in the English dept. Thank you Ann. Bob Fenner, who would hold off feeding period till there is no appreciable ammonia>

Re: White Cloud gasping   1/19/07
Afternoon Bob, thanks much for the information.  I do treat & store water a few days before I use it.  The little white cloud did die, but the others seems to be OK for now - swimming around. I've limiting the feeding, changed the water, and put  a new filter cartridge in (in case something toxic was in the old water).   Weirdly, the last water change (last night) put a dusty white layer over everything in the tank (except the fish) it's not bugs, more like minerals or bacteria.
<The former... I suspect there is something amiss with your source water... and possibly your "conditioner"... I would practice/mix a glassful... and set on a window sill for look/seeing in the AM>
  I'm starting to think something funky is going on with the tap water.
<Me too>
If they start to look worse, I could put them in with my goldfish, but I'm afraid that the golds are big enough to have a white cloud minnow afternoon snack (more hazardous than cloudy water).
<Mmm, Tanichthys are pretty smart... and fast enough to avoid predation... and "like" to tolerate about the same water quality as goldfishes...>
  Anyway, I'll keep an eye of them and thanks again for your help, you  & the crew are wonderful!
Ann.
<Welcome my friend. Bob Fenner>