Blue Ring Copper Toxic Levels, Pomacanthus hlth.  - 06/05/09
Hi there,
<Thai>
I've been treating my blue ring angel for white spot and he seems to be rid of the whitespot.
However he has developed a cloudy eye and it seems pretty severe. He twitched a lot as well and am assuming this is due to long exposure of copper.
<Could well be>
Am planning on doing massive water changes on the weekend and adding a copper removing filter.
Am wondering if the cloudy eye will heal itself with good water quality and also if there is such a point of no return for the eye.
<Likely will cure itself over time, good water quality, nutrition>
Thanks in advance
Thai Pham
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>

ICH Problem 5/24/09
Hi there,
< Hi >
My blue ring angel has been showing first signs of ICH.
< Insert scary music here >
Though it's minor and the spots disappear in the morning, was wondering if I maintain good water quality the ICH will rid itself.
< I would start with treatments immediately. >
I've got a 375 gallon tank with the 6-7 inch blue ring and 15 Green Chromis. Also have 220 pounds of live rock. Have got copper treatments and anti Protozoal
< I would stick with the copper treatment >
or whatever it's called on standby. Would rather not treat and if it can rid itself, how can I help it.
< I would remove all fish to a hospital tank for treatments. As well as letting the display run fallow. Treatments should be a combination of copper and environmental adjustments. There is tons of info of Wet Web concerning treatment. Read:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm
As well as the pages of FAQ's GA Jenkins >
Thanks

Treatment Options for Juvenile Emperor with Ich – 03/22/09 Hello WWM Crew, <Scott> Thanks you for your outstanding website. With the help in no small part of your collective advice, I have managed to develop a 135 gallon SPS system which is thriving in a way I could not have imagined when I began this venture about two and a half years ago. <Ahh, congratulations> If nothing else, I hope this message is a testimonial to other readers about the value of the quarantine tank. <Ohh> I also hope that get some of your experienced advice in connection with a juvenile emperor angelfish that I acquired last week. He is a bit small (about 1-1/4 inch nose to tail) but exceptionally energetic and curious. He also demonstrated a very good appetite at the LFS store. I purchased him and introduced him to his temporary home; a 20 gallon OT with "mature" sponge filter, heater and a couple of power heads. Unfortunately, after a day or two in quarantine, he started showing signs of Ich. Referring to the attached photo, you will likely see the tell-tale spot on his pectoral fin, as well as a couple tiny spots on his caudal and anal fin. <I see this> My first response was to begin to lower the salinity of the tank and monitor the progression of the parasite and host (i.e see if the fish can fight off the Ich with its own natural defenses as he continues to gain strength in QT). I am also wiping down the floor/walls of the QT and replacing about four gallons of make-up water (taking "diluted" water from the main display) on a daily basis. <Good> The salinity is now down to 22 ppt <Mmm, needs to be quite lower for hyposalinity to be of use here> and emperor is showing no signs of distress and maintains his voracious appetite. But there is also no evidence of any significant reduction at the affected areas. <Also good> I have done lots of research on the subject of Ich and believe that early and decisive action is very important, so I am presently considering two treatment options. The first is to continue the water change and hypo salinity regimen (taking salinity down to 15-16 ppt for the prescribed duration). Assuming I can get to the point where there are no longer any visible spots attached fish, I would do a 100% water change (again, using diluted water from the main display) and completely wash down the interior of the QT. The second option would be treatment with SeaChem Cupramine, but given the "tender age" of this juvenile emperor, I am concerned about the toxicity affects over the (hopefully long) lifetime of this particular fish. I realize that it is up to the individual aquarist to take responsibility and implement the appropriate treatment option, but I would very much appreciate hearing the thoughts of folks with your collective experience. Would you follow one (or both) of the treatments outlined above, or possibly something else altogether? <Due to the factors you mention, I would go with the first option> Thanks in advance. Scott <Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Re: Treatment Options for Juvenile Emperor with Ich 5-22-09 Dear Mr. Fenner (or to the WWM Crew Member responding to this email), <Mike Maddox here tonight> For your reference, I am re-sending a message I sent back on March 21st, in which I requested your advice on treatment options for a juvenile Emperor that appeared to have Ich. Bob Fenner responded that he concurred with the proposed treatment as outlined (thank you for your advice). I proceeded with the hyposalinity treatment, lowering these salinity about 1 ppt per day until I reached 15ppt. The pH has been maintained at roughly 8.3 using Seachem Marine Buffer. Salinity was kept in the range of 14- 15 ppt and after about a week the spot on the caudal fin disappeared. The spot on the anal fin was gone a few days later and after about two weeks (total) the spot (really more of a small lump) rather suddenly "fell off" the pectoral fin. Thinking I had the Ich "on the run" I immediately did a 100% water change in the QT (using diluted make-up water from the display) and thoroughly cleaned the interior of the QT. This actually had a detrimental impact on the fish which I still don't quite understand (the water became cloudy and the Emperor lost his appetite and was quite lethargic and incurious for several days). <Sounds like an adverse reaction/precipitation...always use freshly mixed and aerated saltwater as a replacement> I kept the water quality as high as possible through frequent water changes and the fish did recover his appetite and his former behavior after about a week. <Good> I continued the hyposalinity levels with the goal of going at least 2-3 weeks with no visible spots before slowing increasing salinity back to normal levels. Here is where things seem to have taken a turn for the worse. Over the ensuing weeks, The emperor continues a cycle of having spots (again really more like small lumps) recurring on the same pectoral fin as initially infected. No spots are ever observed anywhere else on the fish and no "scratching" is ever observed. The fish continues to grow, exhibit a good appetite (albeit not quite as robust as seen before) and is still very inquisitive and "social". <Time to make certain it is receiving sponge material...I believe Ocean Nutrition's angel formula has sponge in it> Within the past week or so, I have also noticed small discolorations or lesions on the face and body of the fish which is beyond my ability / experience to identify. These (and the pectoral lumps, which are especially bad in these shots) can be seen in the attached photographs. <Tough to tell from the pictures...do they come and go, or are they more permanent?> I believe corrective action is needed here but I don't quite know how to proceed. Based on your knowledge and experience, do you think I am still dealing with crypt and need to adjust my treatment (say administer copper or formalin) <There are superior treatments...in my opinion there is hardly (if ever) a reason to use copper> or could I be dealing with something altogether different? <Definitely a possibility> Assuming a different treatment is warranted, would you first raise salinity prior to the other treatment? <No. I recommend a full course of treatment with quinine sulfate, available from www.nationalfishpharm.com, and see how things are after that. Also ensure the fish receives plenty of plant material in its diet, as well as sponge matter> Again, I want to express my sincere thanks for the work you folks do to help novices such as the undersigned. <We've all been there, and we all continue to feel like novices at some point or another! The help is gladly given> Scott <Let me know if the quinine treatment doesn't work...Mike Maddox>

Clownfish/Hammer Coral and multicolor angel questions   12/30/08
Hello and Happy Holidays -
Thank you for your website, knowledge, and assistance! I read, read, read and then can still not believe that I missed an important piece of information or still don't understand something. I guess that's why this is a good hobby for me. Never boring. Always something new.
<Agreed>
I have been in the hobby 5-6 years and recently revived my saltwater tank after a home remodel - tank ran with a heater, rock, and sand for almost a year. Now I have been re-stocking and re-learning for a few months. My 100 gal tank (black sand, lots of live rock, 30 gal sump, ASM skimmer, very small and young HOB CPR refugium) has good water parameters (SG 1.025, T 79, Amm/Nitrite/Nitrate all zero, PH 8.1-8.2).
My two primary questions:
1. I have 2 black clowns (with orange faces) that are in the process of pairing up. Overall, they seem to have settled down, but I still see them nipping at each other now and again. They have elected to host in my Hammer Coral. The Hammer seems quite tolerant of this and looks actually very well. They have been living in this coral constantly for the past 3-4 weeks, took to the coral about a week after it was introduced to the tank.
Days 1-3 very happy and in the hammer coral most of the time
Day 4 fluffy cotton hanging from both fish
Day 5 or 6 cotton resolved
Days 6-8 very happy
Day 9 Small slits in fins on both fish
Day 12 or 13 slits healed entirely
Days 13-15 very happy
Approx Day 16 both clowns had more severe reactions to the coral. The smaller could not close his mouth. The larger developed a very swollen and puffy-looking face. Small clown moved away from the coral and resided in another area of the tank.
Day 18 Smaller clown can close his mouth but has a very puffy face. He has a split lip with red around it. Extra vitamins given in his food.
Day 23 or 24 lip heals but face still quite puffy and clown moves back into coral
Days 25-27 very happy (in coral constantly, nip at each other occasionally, eating well)
Day 28 Split caudal fin with cotton on the smaller clown, face more puffy (1/2 is paralyzed?), moves away from hammer again. Still eating well.
Larger clown face still puffy (maybe a little less?), living in coral always, eating well.
(Is this too much detail? Sorry if so).
<Not too much... good to have complete picture>
My thought has been "Hopefully this will sort itself out",
<And it generally does... Percula/Ocellaris clowns do establish relations with Euphyllias in captivity... often course through the sort of process you relate so well here>
since they are eating well and the smaller seems to be managing his illness to some degree on his own. The swollen faces have been for more than 10 days now. They look very much "allergic" and not infectious. I would like to continue to watch it and hope eventually that this will resolve on its own. Is there a time limit for how long I should allow this to go on?
<Mmm, no, not really... Till the two species either "agree" or not to associate>
Also - the day of the open mouth and swollen faces was the same day my peppermint shrimp was picking on that coral and pulling on its polyps.
Would the hammer have been potentially more toxic that day?
<Interesting to speculate...>
(I have since removed the pep).
2. My multicolor angel (in quarantine day 11) developed 3 white spots (2 on the caudal fin, one on a pectoral fin). These remained for 36 hours and then vanished. Debating on what to do, I coincidentally broke a heater in the tank and had to remove him in order to clear the tank of glass.
Therefore, I cleaned out the quarantine tank and have placed entirely new water in the tank. The angel is in a smaller 4 gal holding tank waiting for the water to fully heat and aerate. (I didn't have quite enough water ready for the whole tank). This angel is extremely skittish,
<A sign of good health>
and I question whether or not he would tolerate a FW dip as he attempts to jump out of the tank upon any slight stressor, although he really looks well otherwise. (During acclimation, he tried to jump out several times, even with a lid on - also tried to jump out when I had to net him to remove from the QT and clean the class out.) I am on the fence of "Oh no I need to do something" and "Let's see what happens" due to my lack of experience overall.
<I would, do default to the latter... non-action in cases of doubt>
Trying the minimal approach when possible. Do you have any tips for doing a FW dip in a skittish fish, or would you just skip it altogether?
<As you hint at, to be in constant attendance, make sure the dip container is covered...>
When I dipped my coral beauty angel a number of weeks ago (since then I killed her with copper despite my attempts at careful dosing, thus my aversion to any intervention unnecessary) I was amazed at the things I saw coming out of her and falling off of her (flukes and such), so I do think FW dips can be helpful.
Sorry for the long descriptions.
Thank you for your assistance.
Lynn M
<Thank you for writing so well; completely and clearly... There are some "extra" ideas, methods that might be added to my long-stated dip/bath protocol. For instance, the use of practical anesthetics (akin to "doggy downers" for canines that need to have their nails trimmed let's say)... "Hypno" by Jungle Labs is "over the counter", and there are other materials that might be profitably employed... Bob Fenner>

Flame angel and possible ich treatment  12/13/08
Dear Crew,
<Carolyn>
Once again I feel I need your wisdom..! Think I've found the answer on the site but want to confirm that I'm thinking along the right lines...
<Okay>
I introduced a new flame angel to my 600l system two days ago, he was suitably disease free for the weeks prior to addition to the display and was given a preventative bath prior to addition. Immediately, my Lamarck's female went for him and hassled him for about 4 hours non stop. This chasing rapidly ended due to a bit of careful reworking of the rocks, so they were all too busy exploring to bother about the new arrival. This afternoon he seems to have a few white spots on him, notably on his fins and one side. He's feeding well, is swimming and behaving normally and
isn't scratching or visiting the cleaning stations around the tank. Am I right in thinking that it is worth leaving him where he is but keeping a close eye on the situation?
<This is what I would do, yes>
The QT is cleaned and ready to use again should it be necessary but I get the impression from reading that the stress may cause him to succumb fully?
<Is possible... and more likely with moving>
Obviously it would be my worse nightmare for an outbreak of ich to spread round the tank, but I want to do what's best for all the animals. Knowing that angels don't take well to extended copper treatment, I've also got some formalin on hand incase needed. The other fish in the tank are:
3 carberryi anthias
1 mandarin
1 Copperband
1 female Lamarck angel (juvenile)
2 Firefish/fire gobies
2 false Perc clowns
1 Randall's shrimp goby/shrimp pair
Water parameters:
ammonia/nitrite 0ppm
nitrate <5ppm
phosphate no detectable
calcium 450ppm
dKH 12
pH approx. 8
Once again, many thanks in advance for any advice you can give.
Carolyn
<Let's see if this animal's immune system kicks in sufficiently... Bob Fenner>

Copper Treatment For Butterflies/Dwarf Angelfish 12/11/08
Hi Crew?
<James today, Mark>
Quick question (I hope!) I have had Heniochus Butterfly and a Coral Beauty in my QT since purchase 10 days ago. I performed a FW and Methylene blue dip prior to placing in tank Each fish has a small white spot on a fin and
I am observing closely for parasite infestation. I have read on your site that the dwarf angels to not do well with copper treatment. Is this an absolute contraindication or a relative contraindication. I have Cupramine at home and am ready to pull the trigger or should I be going a different direction?
<Mark, if it were me, I'd keep a close eye on the spots. Your Heniochus and Coral Beauty are more sensitive to copper than most other marine fish.
Treating with copper would be the last resort (personal opinion) as it does suppress the immune function and is highly stressful to fish. Hyposalinity might be a better choice for you right now. I have used Cupramine in the past and in my experience it has been more effective and tolerated much better than other forms of copper. I believe Seachem recommends a 5ppm dose, but I wouldn't go this high for these fish. In the past, I've treated dwarf angels with a 4ppm dose and it proved to be effective. You must test twice daily and maintain the 4ppm to be effective, and test with a test kit that will correctly measure the type of copper you are using.>
THANKS SO MUCH!
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>

Flame angel with ich, 8/27/08
Hi, I recently purchased a flame angel.
<Hello>
Within a few days of being in my quarantine tank he started developing white spots on his fins.
<Glad you QTed I bet.>
I read that angels are sensitive to copper so I decided to try hyposalinity.
<Not as sensitive as some others, chelated copper is often tolerated and effective. otherwise I might try quinine here.>
I have had the salinity at 1.012 for four days and been giving him daily freshwater dips for 5-8 minutes.
<This is not low enough, 1.009 is where you need to be, and you need to be accurate, use a refractometer.>
After the first dips the ich seemed to disappear only to come back with a vengeance two days later.
<Typical of the Ich parasite.>
He now has many white spots on his body as well as his fins. He is still eating well, doesn't scratch against anything, but he does seem irritated and a little jumpy.
<Probably uncomfortable.>
Should I start treating with copper and slowly raise the salinity?
<I would, but make sure to use chelated copper.>
I worry about waiting too long before trying something else because the last fish I had that got the ich died because I started treating him with copper a day after he stopped eating.
<Quick action does help, but so does a good plan. Daily water changes and siphoning of the bottom of the tank will help reduce the number of parasites until a proper copper treatment can begin.>
The ich went away but he never ate again. I also worry that if the hyposalinity starts working it won't completely kill off the ich and the angel will carry it to my main tank.
Thanks, Brendon
<If done correctly hypo should work, but it is more difficult than it seems due to the small window of effectiveness, too low and the fish suffers, too high and the ich keeps on going. I would use a chelated copper here.>
<Chris>

Ich?, Marine Angels 7/29/08
I have a question for the WWM Crew.
<Fire away.>
I bought a flame angelfish as well as a lawnmower blenny about a month ago. They were both perfectly fine and I acclimated them to my 75 gallon tank.
<QTed?>
They have been doing very well eating all the algae in my tank and swimming happily. The only thing is that I noticed that the angel had gotten a few white spots which I thought was Ich. I was going to treat him the next day but when I looked at him the spots were gone.
<But not the infestation of the tank if it is ich. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm .>
The spots have been coming and going the whole time I have had the fish now. I did a water change on the tank today and when I came home from work several hours later the white spots are worse than ever. I didn't know if maybe it could be air bubbles from turning on our filter or if it really could be Ich. Any help would really be appreciated.
Thank you.
<Hard to say without a picture, due to Ich's lifecycle it too can come and go in appearance. Take a look in our marine disease section and compare the pictures to what your fish is showing. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm .>
<Chris>

Angelfish, Crypt, etiology... reading  – 07/08/08 Hi to all. I have am having a problem with my juvenile emperor angel and to a lesser degree my yellow wrasse which I have had for 9 days. Both fish are in qt. and seemed fine before I went on a 4 day vacation. When I returned my angel was very discolored and covered in white spots (ich) I believe. (day 1) I dipped both fish in fresh water and Methylene blue for 10 minutes and but them back in qt. <... Back into the infested system?> over night.(day2) The wrasse looked fine the next morning but my angel was looking worse and becoming lethargic so I dipped both fish again in saltwater from my main aquarium and dosed with 2 teaspoons of formalin3 in 1 gallon of water for 40 minutes and then returned them back to qt.(day3) <... tell me, not back to the infested system> Angel's color is returning and is feeding very well his tail has become ragged I suspect from the formalin3, no more spots or specks of white. My question is, I have not treated my qt. with any medications and I don't know if I should, I have stressed these guys out enough. I also did a 50% water change while the fish were in qt. Do I treat with Cupramine or just wait and see on a day to day. thanks in advance for any advice. Mike Re: Angel fish – 07/08/08 > Thanks for the quick response, > The answer to your question is yes I did put the fish back in the untreated tank in a panic because I didn't know if I should treat the tank with copper after just dipping them in formalin3. <One approach...> > I have now started to treat the qt. with Cupramine first dose 1ml for 48 hrs. then repeat, <... need, absolutely to get/use a chelated copper test kit. NOT to just add> I hope this works the fish are too nice to lose. > thanks again any more input would be great. > Mike <... my friend... Read where you were referred to. BobF>

Need an opinion on ick treatment   7/5/08
Hello,
<Hi there>
I need your much appreciated advise regarding ich treatments. My tank is a 300 gallon sps setup with two tuff stuff 140 gallon tubs connected by two 3" bulkheads;
<Nice>
one currently is holding the skimmer and the other is used as a refugium with Chaetomorpha algae. My display is over 2 years old with a 4" layer of fine sand and about two hundred and fifty pounds of live rock. My ammonia is undetectable; so is the nitrite. My nitrates are about 2.5 and pH ranges from 8.2 - 8.4. Alkalinity is at 9dKH and calcium is around 450.
<Very good>
I always tried to maintain salinity at 1.025, however after buying a refractometer three days ago I realized my water was actually at 1.030; so I lowered it to 1.025 within three days.
<Mmm, I would take a week or longer here>
I currently have the following fish:
- 4" Majestic angelfish
- 4" Coral Beauty
- 2" ocellaris clown
- Two 3" black saddleback clowns
- 3.5" melanurus wrasse
- 3" Lawnmower blenny
- 3.5 yellow eye Kole tang
- 4" Pacific Blue tang
- 4.5" Powder blue tang
By now I'm pretty sure you know where this is going. I got the powder blue about two months ago. I quarantine it for a month without any signs of ick, so I placed it in the display. None of my fish bothered it, he became the dominant fish right away. About two weeks after being placed in the display, I noticed he had what seemed to be ick. I obviously somehow introduced the parasite, so I was wondering what could have triggered this.
<Perhaps the rapid change in SPG>
Does the tank have a high Bio-load,
<No>
could the high salinity I had previously mentioned started this
<Yes>
or could it be the current heat wave which elevated the temperature to 84 degrees
<Could be a co-factor>
the one day I forgot to turn on the cooling fans. My display temperature is always at 80 to 82 degrees. I also had to remove a 5" blue throat trigger which the powder blue could not stand and chased a few times a day; I wonder if that stressed him enough.
<This too>
I waited a few days before taking further and appropriate action. At this point the powder blue is full of ick but eats well. My yellow eye which only grazes of the rocks and the glass is now also full.
<This is something else>
The Pacific blue gets the spots to a lesser degree on and off. The rest of the fish don't show any signs, however based on your web page I know all the fish need to be treated.
<Yes...>
After doing my research I need to remove all the fish and leave the tank fallow 8-10 weeks. I need your advise on how to properly remove the ick from the fish. My plan was to begin with the three tangs, giving them a formalin bath as per bottle recommendations, then placed in a 60 gallon quarantine.
<Good>
My question is whether I should add Cupramine to the 60 gallon quarantine tank at .35ppm
<At the highest concentration...)
for two weeks
<Is one approach... you might want to try Chloroquine phosphate... IF the infestation is not too "deep", hyperinfective, this anti-malarial may destroy it (rather than simply arrest the present development)>
then moved to a 150 gallon holding tank while I place the rest of the fish through the same procedure and while the display goes fallow. However I'm scared the copper might damaged the intestinal bacteria the tangs have, or if I might be doing more damage to my angels.
<A distinct possibility>
The other plan was to not use the copper and give the fish a formalin bath every other day for two weeks, then skip the 60 gallon with copper and place them into the 150 with newly mixed water.
<Another approach... but likely more harmful than chelated copper exposure at the lower effective range (.0.15 ppm free Cu++)>
My last idea was just one Formalin bath then placed in the 150 for observation. I believe I read many are not big fans of Formalin, as it is toxic, however I figured the copper might do more damage but I could be wrong.
<Is very toxic... but effective for "surface" complaints>
Please help me figure out which would be my best option. Also how would you recommend keeping the ammonia and nitrite down on either the 60 or 150 spare tanks with new saltwater.
<Changing it...>
Is Amquel or any ammonia sponge good or are water changes the only option.
<Mmm, the latter may be worth trying... most water conditioners remove copper...>
The sponges I had for biological filters in the sump most likely have ick so I don't want to introduce it to the quarantine.
Thanks and keep up the good work.
<I empathize with your situation... Would try the Chloroquine on the Tangs, Angels... and see if this does the job, along with the one-time/moving formalin/aerated bath. Bob Fenner>

Another ich question... perhaps   04/14/2008 Hi Crew, I know you don't get tired of these... an ich question. On Friday I picked up a latticed butterfly and put it in a QT. All appeared to be fine. Saturday it had 3 spots on its tail fin... and I know it's ich. <... maybe> Since researching WWM I know they are sensitive to chelated copper. I did do a fw dip with meth. blue for 4 min... fish was extremely stressed. I had Cupramine on hand but didn't have a Seachem test kit. I found one in town, went and got it. Came back and dosed as directed. Tested the tank and got no results. According to the FAQs on WWM this is not too uncommon. Here's the problem. I have no way of testing this copper within the 48 hours as recommended... any suggestions on another way to test? Also fish seems a little stressed, would it be prudent to filter the copper out and try another method, formalin dips or 50% water changes every other day for 2 weeks, to combat this? Thank you Jennifer <I would hold off on treatment period... this may well not be Ich/Cryptocaryon... are the spots located directly over the fin rays? Possibly these are just reaction sites from rough netting... A well-resolved picture would help... Bob Fenner> Re: Another ich question...  - 04/14/08 Hi Bob, Update: Sunday I did a 50% water change (using main tank water) and am currently using a PolyFilter to get the copper out. I would have sent pics but they are too small to see in the pic, not to mention the little bugger wouldn't sit still. 1 of the 3 spots is gone. The spots are not on the fin rays they are on the very edge of the fin. <Both telling... this is not Cryptocaryon> At what point do you think I'll know for sure it's ich and what would be your recommendation for treatment given that latticed butterflyfish are copper sensitive? <... posted... In general, best to use quinine.> Is Cupramine ok for this fish? <IF it had something for which Copper is useful to treat...> I have researched this disease to death so I am quite familiar with its' lifecycle and the treatments. I just don't think this fish was doing well with the Cupramine, stationary in the corner, heavy breathing. Since the water change moving around more and normal respiration. <Thank goodness> And FYI on the SeaChem test results.. according to SeaChem if there is a lot # on the powder reagent then that is the problem. <?!> They have revamped their test kits. Thank you Bob Jennifer <And you Jen. BobF> Re: Another ich question...  - 04/15/08 Dear Bob and I say dear because if you don't think this is ich I'll sing your praises even more than I already do!! In all of the research that I have done I have yet to see that the spots needed to be on the fin rays but it does make sense. The 2 remaining spots are gone. She hasn't scratched that I've seen but I try to stay out of the room to keep her stress level down. <Good point, practice> I shall continue with water changes to keep up water quality. She hasn't eaten since I brought her home but seems interested in picking at tank wall and floor. <What they do> I've put mysis shrimp in the clam shell as suggested on WWM but nothing. I'll try other tricks. <Fresh/er live rock...> Thank you again Bob for all of your great advice!! Jen <Welcome! BobF> Re: Another ich question... – 4/15/08 I wrestled with the live rock idea because if it was ich meds would kill...well you know the rest. However, she did eat some shrimp. By the way I did see those 2 spots after all on her tail (had to press my face against the glass), which now makes 48 hours. Thanks again, Bob! Jennifer <Jen, can you send a well-resolved, close-up pic? BobF> Re: Another ich question...  4/16/08 Bob, I don't know "well resolved" these photos are but it's the best I could get. It was stressing her out. The spots have gotten a little bigger. You can see them at the very edge of her tail. I did another 50% water change siphoning the bottom. Just out of curiosity if quinine is so effective and is safe for sharks why isn't it the cure most recommended overall? Thanks Bob. Jennifer <Mmm... this is almost certainly NOT Cryptocaryon... on the basis of placement, size, and the lack elsewhere on the body. What it is... likely... is Lymphocystis... a viral-environmental-stress complaint. NOT treatable by "medicines" per se, but ameliorated via environmental improvement, enhanced nutrition, alleviating/lowering stress overall. Do know that this species of Butterfly is NOT easily kept in captivity... Bob Fenner> Re: Another ich question...  4/16/08 Bob, That is great news!!! I've dealt with Lympho before.. you actually helped me through it with my coral beauty. He's thriving in the display tank. I'm sending another pic for better clarity. I took my book (your book) into the LFS for reference and I was positive this was a Latticed Butterflyfish. If not then what is it? Thank you. Jennifer <... is a Raffle's... see here: http://wetwebmedia.com/Goodchaetodon.htm This one is dangerously thin. I would move it post haste to permanent quarters... with plenty of live rock, other feeding. B> Re: Another ich question...  4/17/08 She started eating mysis shrimp yesterday.. couple times a day. I put a well algae covered piece of live rock in with her today that she's picked at some. Thanks for all of your help and reassurance!! Jennifer <Ahh! Good news... and yes to there being a few common names for this Chaetodon species. Cheers! BobF> Re: Another ich question... BF not eating 04/21/08 Hi Bob.. need some help. My Chaetodon has pretty much stopped eating. It was picking at the live rock and has now ceased doing that. I've tried everything I can find on WWM... mysis, Cyclops, clam, krill, worms.. nothing. Now she stays in the corner of the tank where as she was actively swimming around. I'm concerned. The only thing I didn't try was brine. Any ideas what I can try? Thank you. Jennifer P.S. The Lympho spots fell off. <This BF is in your main tank now I take it. I would avail yourself of appetite stimulants... my fave are those containing Selco's product. Bob Fenner> Re: Another ich question... 04/22/08 Thank you. I'll shop around for Selco products and give it a try. Jennifer <Please do so... and quickly. Selcon is a fave and quite readily available. As stated early on the Lattice/Raffle's butterflyfish is not easily kept in general... mostly due to feeding (or lack thereof) issues... B> Re: Another ich question...04/22/08 Perhaps I misunderstood, but I chose this BF due to it being listed on the "good Chaetodon" list as noted in the link in your previous email and in the Conscientious Marine Aquarist. Is this going to be a losing battle or should I try to take him back to the LFS? Jennifer <Mmmm, I do concur with you re this fish's listing... how to put this... the Raffle's is on the border of good to medium for Chaetodontids... not amongst the "best" choices (e.g. Aurigas, Raccoons...). IF the folks will take this fish back, I might return it, but it will very likely perish due to further handling... How to further elaborate re BF's? I have friends in the trade who won't/don't handle the family period... Due to too many "anomalous deaths"... One way of stating this is some sort of arbitrary scale could be made for all fishes, livestock viability... with BF's starting at half the score/scale period. Bob Fenner> Re: Another ich question... BF 4/23/08 That's good to know. If this one doesn't make it I'll will give up on the BFs. There is a LFS that I usually buy all livestock from and they told me they won't sell BFs because they don't live long in captivity...should have listened to them. Thank you for all your help, Bob, it is very much appreciated!! Jennifer <Welcome Jen! BobF>

The Eighth-Millionth Ich-Related Question – 07/04/07
Dear Bob & Crew,
<<Hi Mike...EricR here>>
How nice to have a "go to" resource in times of need/confusion. (after reading WWM articles and FAQ's on the subject until my eyes fell out, of course. Optometrist appt. tomorrow)
<<Hee-hee! I just had mine "lasered" a week ago myself! We're happy to be here for you...>>
I currently have an approx. 3" Longnose Butterfly in quarantine. Fish "seemed" to be healthy, alert, active and was eating at LFS. Transported in BIG bag as per WWM handling instructions.
<<Okay>>
Thanks to The Contentious Marine Aquarist, for making me quarantine first or this could have been really ugly. (Main tank is fine, knock, knock.)
<<Indeed>>
This is the Butterfly I quarantined with the Blood Shrimp to help keep him calm. This Butterfly has been my most relaxed in QT yet. (eating Mysis)
<<Cool>>
QT is basic 10gal with 10lbs LR and 1/2" Reef Sand, Hang-on Filter with Bio Wheel and a heater. (LR and Sand might have to be exchanged for PVC here? Garbage is on Tuesdays)
<<Ah yes, as you are likely aware the rock/substrate can/will harbor disease organisms. Best to go "bare-bottom" and use something for "cover" likely eh PVC that can be "sterilized" or easily/cheaply replaced if need be. Also, I’m compelled to mention that 10-gallons is really too small for all but the smallest fish species…do consider a 29-gallon or larger tank for your QT system>>
Approx. 10% water changes done weekly. Temp 76deg. pH 8.2. No measurable amounts of ammonia, nitrites or nitrates. Just like my main tank with one exception.
I keep my S.G. low to start (1.019) to match the LFS tanks so I can acclimate stressed fish quickly on arrival (1 hr.) while supposedly reducing the chances of Ich while fish is still new and stressed.
<<Okay…but a pH and temperature balanced freshwater dip would probably go further/be more effective re the Ich. And keeping the salinity up in the QT will definitely be better for the shrimp>>
I have been watching the shrimp - fine active and eating under these conditions. Is this a mistake on my part to QT like this even if I bring up SG slowly near end of QT period?
<<Mmm, hard to say…hypo-salinity is generally not recommended for inverts, but while in QT, its initial/short-term use may reduce stress on the “fishes”…though I do not condone its use in the display tank. And as mentioned, a properly prepared freshwater dip going in and coming out of QT is a good practice/prophylactic treatment>>
Go figure. My first contented, relaxed fish in QT is developing "spots". (did I thank the book yet that it's not in my main tank?)
<<An oft stress-induced response to handling/transport. And…have you also considered this ailment may not have come with the fish but may have been awaiting in the QT amongst the sand/live rock?>>
Started with two noticeable spots on the tail. Now up to about four, and one on his left fin. Not one spot on it's body, yet. It's been a few days since I noticed the first couple.
Fish behavior "appears" to be ok. Appetite is good. Shrimp is not cleaning. (and just when I wanted him to make me proud)
<<Hmm, you said this was a “Blood” shrimp (Lysmata debelius) yes? The Striped Cleaner Shrimp (Lysmata amboinensis) is a better choice for “cleaner duty” in my opinion>>
These spots are NOT "white" like grains of salt though. They are just noticeable small obscure spots on otherwise transparent tail and fin.
<<Maybe they went unnoticed/were there all along. Maybe they are bits of sand/detritus from the QT>>
It is difficult to tell if they are on the surface even after considerable staring, blinking and eye rubbing. Lighting has to be just so to see the spots, but they are definitely there.
<<Might be nothing to worry about at all>>
Also, mouth and base of fins are ok, but there is a noticeable, depending on light, internal redness right through the middle of this fish from behind head to tail that seems to come and go. Not always apparent.
<<Hmm…>>
I have not increased the SG and am now slowly raising tank temp just in case. First question: Are these two findings related?
<<I’m not convinced they are “findings” yet>>
Second question: If the spots are NOT really white like grains of salt and not noticeably on the surface, what could it be, if not Ich?
<<Mmm, very difficult to speculate…and may be nothing at all>>
Is it Canadian Ich? (That's a joke, by the way, even if it is a poor one)
<<Ha!>>
Third question: I read all about the freshwater dip treatment shortly after reading (before buying this fish) all about the risks of handling, netting fragile Longnoses. Is the risk of repeated handling worth it yet or do I wait a bit and observe.
<<At this point I am inclined to just continue observation. If this “is” a “condition,” the fish’s immune system may well handle/be handling it. But regarding the “netting” of this fish, if/when handling becomes necessary; consider using a hard-sided container (like those used to hold netted fishes at the LFS) to capture/move the fish between vessels>>
Last(?) question: If I have to treat the tank, do I have to move the blood shrimp.
<<Yes>>
If I do, is it safe to move this shrimp to the main tank or is he guilty by association and gets solitary confinement as well?
<<Though these inverts are not typically “hosts” of the same protozoan infections we see on/treat our fishes for, they can be “carriers” of same>>
Sorry to have to send you your eight-millionth Ich related question,
<<Aha! You just gave me the title for this query! [grin]>>
but it does not seem like an open and shut case, and my concern is a misdiagnosis might be worse than none at all.
<<Understood…but I do think patience/continued observation is called for at the moment>>
Thanks, eh.
Mike from Canada
<<Cheers mate. EricR-visiting in beautiful San Diego>>

Re: The Eight-Millionth Ich-Related Question – 07/04/07
Dear Crew & Bob (in this case - sorry Bob)
<<He’ll be crushed…well…no…probably not [grin]>>
Thank you Eric.
<<Quite welcome>>
Your answers were very insightful and your efforts were not in vain.
<<Cool>>
First of all, I always thought the day might come when I would run into a problem and have to trash the LR and sand in the QT, but I never considered the fact that the LR and or sand could actually be the host/cause of a disease or problem.
<<Mmm, well…not so much “hosting” but more like providing hiding places for cysts/larvae (can siphon a bare bottom during water changes) and absorbing medicants from previous treatments. But still, best to use a plastic medium you can bleach or even discard between quarantine sessions>>
This makes perfect sense and I can't believe I missed it (Head Slap)!
<<ouch!>>
Also, I see that the idea that the Butterfly is picking up these things on a tail or fin from the LR etc., is also a strong possibility now that you mention it (Another Head Slap)!
<<Careful mate…don’t want to shake something loose>>
I will know soon enough.
<<Ah yes>>
From now on, we can refer to this syndrome as "Canadian Ich", eh. (Doh!)
<<Ha!>>
I will increase the size of the QT as suggested and keep it bare bottom with some inorganic cover.
<<Excellent>>
I will also include the "Dip" into this fish's schedule with your handling suggestions. After that, patience and continued observation it is.
<<Very good, Grasshopper…>>
All great advise that make perfect sense.
<<My fingers are crossed that this is so>>
People, we have a plan!
<<Woo-hoo!>>
Consider it done. Now, off to the LFS before they close to spend more money!
<<Cha-ching!>>
My fish thank you.
<<A pleasure to assist>>
Mike from Canada, eh.
<<Regards, EricR>>

Re: Keeping Cleaner Shrimp / Butterfly Possible Ich  7/2/07
Thanks for all your help Bob.
Unfortunately Spike, (the Longnose) did not make it past his fourth day. The mail order supplier has offered to replace or refund including shipping so I will be trying again. I have yet to decide if risking overnight shipping is a good idea. However before I attempt that, I have to assume that the white spots on the caudal fin were crypt and therefore the QT is now infected. As the QT has a very strong biological filter that's been running for several months, I would rather not strip down and disinfect the QT. I have turned the temp up to 85F
<I'd raise this to 90 F.>
and am considering lowering SG for a period.
<A good idea>
I will also be removing the substrate but leaving the live rock & Eheim Classic as a filter.
Is there anything else you would suggest ? Also, what minimum fallow time period would you recommend ? The normal 28 days ?
<This should do it at the elevated temp. and lowered spg.>
Finally, when removing from the bag into QT I used a large plastic slotted spoon, thinking it was better than a net - perhaps a bad idea in retrospect.
<Mmm, I'd use a soft net... or even my hand with Butterflyfishes (not all other fish families though for sure)>
Do you have any other ideas that are more gentle. I thought about lowering the water in the bag to a minimum and letting it swim out but wasn't sure on the dangers of allowing the bag water into the QT after a 24 hour journey.
Thanks
-Peter
<Do read here re Guerilla Acclimation:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/acclimat.htm
You want to measure, do a few things to account for the lowered pH, high nitrogenous wastes in the shipping water and stock when it's been in transit this long.
Bob Fenner>

Ich, Copperband Butterfly 6/27/07
Hi crew!
<Hello>
Quick question.. I searched and maybe there is no answer to this but I'm asking anyway. I have a copperband butterfly fish in QT (6 days now). It has ich and I have been treating with Rid Ich+(4 days now). <Toxic stuff, not one of my choices for treatment.> She (assuming) eats like a pig, swims great, but her gills seem to be pumping harder than they should. <Probably a combination of the Ich's effects on the gills and lower O2 levels caused by the medications.> I know this is due to the parasite. I did a freshwater dip with methylene blue last night for 9 minutes for external parasites...she was fine. <Good>
Is there anything I can do to make her more comfortable or to make her gills not have to work so hard?. or do I have to wait for this parasite to get out of her gills? <Increasing circulation will help.> I know this may sound like a stupid question.
<Is not> But I've read on WWM on copperband butterflyfish being fragile and she is a fighter. I don't want to lose her...she already eats from my hand. Thanks! Jen
<Good luck>
<Chris>

Re: Ich, Copperband Butterfly 6/27/07
Thanks Chris for the quick response! <Sure> Rid Ich was not my first choice either but from everything I read on WWM they are extremely sensitive to copper and I have never had any luck with hypo. <True, I probably would have gone with straight Formalin, instead of the Formalin/malachite green in Rid Ich+, a little less toxic.> I had sent quite a few emails to WWM concerning the best course of treatment but couldn't get a definitive answer. I know there are not a lot of absolutes in this hobby, especially when it comes to this nasty parasite. <Lots of different ideas out there, best bet is to stick with the basics.> I do have a filter rated for a 40 gal on the QT so the water is circulated quite well, should I add an airpump to this as well for aeration? <Could, but probably unnecessary.> When would it be safe to do another dip? <Have to go on your judgment there, if it seems strong enough go for it.>
Thanks!
<Welcome>
<Chris>

Re: Ich, Copperband Butterfly 6/27/07
Chris, do you think it would be too late to PolyFilter out the Rid Ich and treat with Formalin? Would it be too much on the fish? Thanks!
<At this point I would probably just continue with the current treatment, stopping and starting all over again would probably be too stressful. Watch your water quality carefully and the fish's behavior.>
<Chris>

Re: Ich, Copperband Butterfly 6/27/07
Ok, thanks...she's not eating as well today. Thank you again. Jennifer
<As long as she is eating some I would not worry too much about it. If she stops completely then starting thinking about taking action.>

Re: Ich, Copperband Butterfly 6/28/07
Ok, good to know...she is eating better now. <Good, probably just not hungry before.> Per Rid Ich's instructions since today is the 3rd day of treatment after signs of ich have disappeared (external spots) I'll change 40% of the water and see what happens. <Give her a full 6 weeks in QT to make sure it doesn't return.> Question: Is Formalin always a better solution than Rid Ich.. if given a choice between the two? Thanks! Jennifer
<Formalin is in Rid Ich+, along with malachite green, which are both effective but quite toxic. I feel that since the formalin alone can cure the ich, that hitting the fish with malachite green as well is overkill and exposing the fish to unnecessary medication. I forgot to link you to this article, its one of my favorites. http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php .>
<Chris>

Re: Ich, Copperband Butterfly 6/29/07
6 weeks in the QT is definitely the plan! <Good> And if ich does flare up again I'll treat with formalin only...what's the point of the malachite if formalin alone will kill the ich? <Differentiate themselves form the competition and marketing, if 1 medication works well, 2 must work twice is well.> Thanks for the link. I'll check it out! While I've got you I have a pink watchman goby in a qt for 6 days now. He was in with the copperband for 1 day then I discovered ich and I put the goby in a separate QT. No signs of ich...how long should I leave him in the QT? <At least 6 weeks, and watch very closely, assume it has ich unless it can prove otherwise.> According to WWM FAQ gobies don't fair well in a QT for very long. What do you think? <I would assume it is carrying ich, so it will need the full QT.>
Thanks again!
<Welcome>
<Chris>

Re: Ich, Copperband Butterfly 6/29/07
Thanks for all the great info Chris! I now have a plan of attack and am better armed! Thanks again!! Jennifer
<Great!>
<Chris>

Re: Ich, Copperband Butterfly 7/2/07
Chris, I read the link you sent. Do you recommend the formalin dip or treating the whole tank? <I prefer treating the whole tank.> I noticed what looks like a spot today, but it is rather large right on her lateral line and I'm wondering if it's another problem or an she scraped herself on a divider in the tank she uses to hide behind. <Could be.> Whew and I was worried I wouldn't have anything to do for awhile...haha! <Keep on trucking.> Thank you again for you patience! Jennifer
<Welcome>
<Chris>

Ich on sensitive fish?   6/24/07
Hello again crew!! Well.. I'm back again and since I dodged the ich bullet in my main tank I wanted to add more fish. So I started up a QT, did my research on the fish compatible (size and temperament) and went hunting. I bought a copperband butterflyfish and a pink and blue goby. They were in the same tank, had been in the LFS for a month and both ate like pigs. I brought them home and put them in the bare bottom QT, although there is some LR for the butterfly to graze on (I'll remove if need be). Two days later I see a spot on the butterflyfish. From what I see on WWM these are both sensitive fish to ich treatments. I have chelated copper , formalin and Cupramine on hand. Should I remove the goby to a separate tank.. I have a 5 gal I could quickly set up. Please advise on best treatment. I've grown quite attached to the butterflyfish.. it's very friendly. By the way...is there a way to tell if it's a male or female? As always...I'm in your debt!!!! Thank you! Jennifer
<What I know re is posted on WWM. BobF>
 

Treatment of Marine Ich- Which Option Is Best?  4/4/07
Dear Crew,
<Scott F. your Crew member tonight!>
I love the site, and I've learned a great deal from it. I think I've read all the articles and FAQ's on your site regarding ich, formalin, and copper, but I still have some questions. I purchased a Flame Dwarf Angel and a Banggai Cardinal a week ago and put them in a 15 gallon QT. Within a few days, the Flame Angel developed ich.
<Sorry to hear that- but it's great that you embraced a quarantine procedure! As bad as it sounds, it's better to have the fish come down with an illness in the quarantine tank than in your display system.>
I read on your site that flame angels are sensitive to both copper and formalin, but thought the formalin would be the better way to go.
<According to most people, it is. I personally have always used chelated copper remedies with good results in Centropyge Angelfishes. You MUST follow the manufacturer's recommendations for dosage and duration to the letter, and be sure to test the copper levels daily to assure that you are maintaining a correct therapeutic dose. Yes, Centropyge can be sensitive to copper, so I guess I cannot say that I "recommend" it for everyone. However, it has been, and will continue to be my remedy of choice for treatment of Cryptocaryon.>
I put my first dose of formalin in the QT Sunday, and by Monday night, the flame angel was dead (not a good day).
<Sorry to hear that. One of the reasons I like copper is that you can actually test for the concentration, to make sure that you're not overdosing. Nonetheless, many hobbyists use formalin-based products for their treatment of this illness with good results.>
With the Flame Angel gone, am I better switching to non-chelated copper with a copper test, or should I continue with the formalin? It sound like copper may be more effective.
<Well, you saw my thoughts! I'd stick it out with copper, myself, as outlined above.>
Also, I am curing live rock and inadvertently rinse off the live
rock in a bucket I had been using for water changes for the QT tank. Do I most likely have ich on my live rock now? And if so, do I need to leave it fallow in my curing tub for another 6 - 8 weeks like I would need to do for a display tank?
<A good thought on your part! I would definitely keep it in a separate holding container for the period that you mention. You just have to assume that the rock may be hosting a stage of the causative protozoa, and as such, it's too risky to place it in your display tank yet.>
Thanks for your help.
<Glad to be of service! Keep up with your excellent observations and intuitive thinking! It will serve you well in this hobby!>
P.S. I love CMA, but it is starting to get somewhat dated. Does Bob have any plans of coming out with a second edition? I know I would buy it! <<Thank you for this prompting... Have sent your note to James Lawrence/Microcosm... we never even got the "Reef" version of this work into print! Bob Fenner>>
Darren White
Downingtown, PA
<Well...whaddya think, Bob? Regards, Scott F.>

New Blue-Face Angel with eating woes and ich  3/1/07
Hi Guys,
<Hello.>
great site.
<Thanks.>
I added my "center piece" fish last week.
<Cool.>
  He is a 6 inch adult Blue Face Angel.
<Still a little guy.>
He is in 125 FOWLR with 100lbs of live
<Adequate space for a year or so.>
rock.  This system is 1 year old.  His tank mates include 2) 3inch regal tangs, 1) 3inch purple tang, 1) 3inch coral beauty angel, 1) 4inch changing imperator angel,
<Mmm...would not have put both these angels in such a confined space.>
1) long nose hawkfish, 1) perc clown 1) purple firefish and 1) black cap Basslet.
<Tis a lot of animals for a tank fo this size.>
  I also have small cleaner crew that consists of 20 hermits 12 Mexican turbo snails and a two cleaner shrimp.  I did not QT the blue face because of his size (I only had a 10g QT Tank).
<Yes, that would not have been pretty.>
He was eating Mysis at the LFS and had been there 3 weeks.  He looked perfect.  He hid as expected and did not come out during feedings (3 cubes of Mysis, 1 cube Angel Formula with sponge and a piece of frozen Krill).
<I would not begin to worry yet.>
  I also clip in a sheet of Green Seaweed.  On day three I saw him eating the krill from the bottom but other than that I have not observed him eating.  
<Again too soon to be concerned, and the above behavior is promising.>
I have been putting in the food with a baster and leaving right away in the hopes that he is eating when not observed.  The sheet is gone every night and the big pieces of krill are gone within an hour.  He looked good until day Seven (today) when I noticed he had ick or velvet.
<Likely ich if not dead yet, velvet is a quick killer, and if he has so does everyone else.>
He is actually out in the open alot today but he clearly has the effects of the parasites on his body.
  First, what do you recommend to treat him.  I won't to leave him in the tank because of his size.  I don't want to use copper because I'd rather leave the inverts and rock in place.
<Read here and subsequent links, (also check reefkeeping online mag. for Steven Pro ich/crypt article: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm.>
  Second, do you have some better feeding recommendations.
<What you are feeding is good, but a larger variety would not hurt, Ocean nutrition makes an angel formula and Selcon wouldn't be a bad vitamin supp.>
Thanks in advance and please advise.
<Welcome.>
Francisco J
<Adam J.>

Heniochus acuminatus with Ich 6/23/06
Hi WWM crew!!
<Hi>
I have an Heniochus acuminatus that show symptoms of ick. <Uh oh> It has white spots, that look like salt. It doesn't have that much but it still concerns me. <It should> It is still eating well. It doesn't breathe rapidly. All the other fish are healthy. <All other fish are infected with Ich, just not symptomatic.> I don't want to treat the main tank, because I have some invertebrate. <Almost always a bad idea.>
I am not able to set up a hospital tank, I don't have the space for it, since I live in an apartment.
<Really need one, doesn’t need to be always set up, can be taken down when not in use.  Without a QT/hospital tank expect to continue to have problems with communicable diseases.>
Yesterday, I have give it a freshwater bath( specific gravity: 1.008) with blue methylene for 10 minutes. <Provides temporary relief, not a cure.> But, today, it still shows symptoms of ICK. <Most likely will continue until the ich life cycle is broken.>
What should I do to treat my fish? <If you are unable/unwilling to get a hospital/QT tank and remove and treat all fish and allow the tank to run follow there is not much you can do.  Provide good quality water and food and hope the fish's immune system and fight off the ich.> I have bought a Formaldehyde - green malachite solution to use it in a bath, but I am not sure if it is a good idea and how much should I use and for how long. <Toxic stuff, I'm not a big fan of it.  Baths will help temporarily, but when the fish is returned to the tank they will be reinfected.>
Could I use copper in a bath that would last for a long time? <Not effective.> If yes, how much should I use and for how long?
Any other treatment I could try? <Not that wouldn't nuke the tank.  Medications are not specific enough to kill the ich and not destroy the live rock and biofiltration.>   
Thank you very very much!!! I hope my fish will be fine, I really like it!!
<Hope so.>
Steve T.
<Chris>

Heniochus acuminatus with Ich Part II 6/30/06
Hi Chris,
<Hi>
As per your advice, I am actually looking to setup a hospital tank for my fish, to help to get ride of the ick problem... I have 2 clown fish, 2 green Chromis, 1 neon goby, 1 six line wrasse and the Heniochus. What size of hospital should I go with?
<Good to hear, at least a 20 for all those fish.  If easier you could go with a couple of smaller tanks and split up the livestock.>
Today the Heniochus have stopped to eat... :(
<Uh-oh>
What is my best bet with it? Should I give it a freshwater bath until I set-up the hospital tank? Any other ideas?
<A bath may help, make sure its ph adjusted and the right temperature.  Try adding either Selcon or garlic to the food.  Both seem to stimulate the feeding response.  If it goes too long try some live brine shrimp.>
Thank you very much...
Steve
<Good luck and remember to QT any new additions to avoid these problems in the future.>
<Chris>

Heniochus acuminatus with Ich Part III 7/1/06
Hi again Chris,
<Hi>
Sorry to bother you again,
<No bother.>
I promise I will quarantine any new addition to my tank in the future.
<Good>
But, I just have a idea of what I could try to cure my fish from ick and get it out of my main tank. I know that the WWM crew are not big fan of hyposalinity, but could I just buy a tank (the one I would use in the future to quarantine any new addition) and use it to put all my hermit crab. They are the only invert I have in my system. I would put many pieces of live rock with them. So I would not kill all the zooplankton in LR and the crabs
would be more safe...
Could I lower the SPG in the main tank to kill the ick in it? I would keep the hermit crab apart for 6 weeks. Would it be effective? If yes, at what SPG would it cure the fish without being stressful to the fish? I have read from ATJ (the only name I have found of that guy) that the SPG should be at 1.009 to kill the ick. You can see this article here : ''
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/hyposalinity.html''
What do you think of that?
<Well, it will get rid of the Ich if kept at that salinity long enough.  However, it will also kill off most of your live rock, and in the process cause a huge ammonia spike.  If you remove all the LR there will probably not be sufficient biofiltration and cause the same problem.>
Thank you very very much for your help. If I found that the better treatment is the copper in a hospital tank, I will do it... Honestly, I don't feel confident about my capacity to keep them all alive in a basic none established system, though.
<With lots of water changes should be fine.  Could also use Bio-Spira to jump start the biofiltration.>
Steve
<Chris>

Heniochus acuminatus with Ich Part IV 7/3/06
Hi again,
<Hi>
I just wanted to say that I should have listen to you one week ago. I mean I should have treated it as fast as I could. Even if the Heniochus had finally eaten yesterday, I have found it today in my overflow box dead. <Sorry to hear.>  I just feel like crap. The worst thing, it was my girlfriend fish... It was her birthday present. <Yeah, I learned that lesson the hard way too, no fish for gifts.>  I don't think she will like the tank anymore... I feel right now like I would give up too... It is sad that I had to make that fish die just to learn a so simple lesson!!
<Been there, done that.  Almost quit after losing my possum wrasse, loved that fish.>
So, I know that I will sing the same old song!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
TO EVERYONE, don't be damn stupid like me, DO QUARANTINE YOUR FISH!!!!!!!!
<A convert, and ready to give others the advice, some good out of a bad situation.>
So now that the only really sick fish is dead (the wrasse only had 2-3 spots and it is now gone), should I just wait 1 week or 2 before I start to treat them in a hospital tank? <Start immediately.> I mean that way I could let some sponge in my tank to have some biofiltration ready for the quarantine process.
<See if you ca find some Bio-Spira to kick-start the biofiltration.  But do not buy it if it hasn't been kept refrigerated, some stores don't and without it the bacteria will die.>
Should I start using the biofiltration right at the beginning or after the copper treatment so, the copper would not kill the biofiltration?  <From the beginning.>  Can I use filter pad that absorb ammonia with a copper treatment? <No, all will also remove the copper as far as I know, just have lots of new salt water ready for water changes.>  If not, would it be better to use hyposalinity, so I could use absorbent resin to help to maintain good quality of water ?
<Most of the bacteria cannot survive the salinity change anyway, so copper is probably the better way to go.>
Again Thank YOU VERY VERY MUCH for your patience Chris!!!
<Anytime>
<Chris>

Ich treatment for Dwarf Angels 8.11.05
Hello Folks, My main tank has come down with ich.  I first noticed it on my hippo  tang, and shortly there after the spots appearing on all the other fish.   (I have 1 hippo tang, 3 dwarf angels, 1 lawnmower blenny, and 2 clowns)
<Have the dwarf angels been together long. Over one year... six months even? An unnatural mix and some source of stress indeed>
From what I've read angels don't do well with copper, correct?   
<True>
So I should use a formalin product like Kordon's Rich-Ich +, correct?   
<This could be helpful... in a bare-bottomed QT tank. Never dose formalin in the main display. Nor organic dyes for that matter when you have live rock.>
Do you recommend the full dosage (1 tsp per 10 gallons), or should I go with a  half dosage?  
<Always full strength in QT>
If I go with a half dose I'm assuming this will prolong  the treatment time? Thanks!! Travis
<In addition to conventional medications, I like to soak food in garlic extract and beta Glucan (get from GNC health stores). I believe these to be very helpful. Best of luck, Anthony>

Ich treatment for dwarf angels II 8.11.05
the dwarf angels have been together for about three months.  they were  added at the same time and get along fine.  
<It means little... and is hardly a test of time. If yours are like most, they will scrap in time (sexual maturity) and be a constant source of stress for each other. The mix is unnatural and ill-advised IMO>
the reason I asked about the dosage is because I read something on your  site about certain fish being sensitive to such medication .  
_http://www.wetwebmedia.com/formalinart.htm_ (http://www.wetwebmedia.com/formalinart.htm)
<understood>
It reads: "Some groups of freshwater fishes (small Characoids/tetras, Mormyrids, loaches...) and marines (Surgeonfishes, Rabbitfishes, dwarf  angelfishes...) are sensitive to formalin and formalin/malachite, and should not  receive more than half doses of these chemicals. Live plants are also made of proteins... and will die if exposed to formalin. Formalin kills microbes indiscriminately, including nitrifying bacteria. Hence you will need to monitor the accumulation of ammonia and nitrite, and take steps to prevent their  exceeding 1.0 ppm (likely by massive changes of pre-conditioned water)." Thanks.
<Formalin by itself is no more stressful than most any other meds in general, but with organic dyes like malachite green, the angels can respond badly. Watch closely... but I'm still saying full dose and standard QT protocol (daily water changes form the bare bottom of the tank to reduce larval parasites, etc). Anthony> <<RMF would heed the manufacturer's warning and treat only half dose.>>

The Ich Warrior Is On The Offensive!
Hi Scott,
<Hello again!>
Appreciate your quick response in my time of aquatic turmoil.
Do you think Formalin 3 is a good treatment for the flame angel in the hospital tank? The bottle of Formalin says that the dose can be repeated every 24 hours is that o.k?  I'm going to go easier on the hospital tank meds this time around.
<I'd follow the manufacturer's instructions to the letter with this, or any medication>
Like you said,  you must be relentless back to the ich parasites to beat this thing and you're not exaggerating one bit!!
<Yep, but you CAN beat it!>
I'll let you know how this thing goes.
<Please do! Good luck!>
Thanks again, Ed
<Go get 'em, Ed! Regards, Scott F.>

Fighting Ich The Easy Way?
I'm starting to feel indebted to you guys for all the help you have given me.  Here is my question for the day.  I have a flame angel in quarantine, about 3 inches long.  He was brought in from Hawaii two weeks ago from LFS.
<Excellent fish, excellent procedure, and the best place to get 'em from!>
Curious about surroundings, eating some prepared food, nibbling on everything in sight, seemed healthy.  He is now in my quarantine tank, been there for two days, started showing some signs of ich, 5 or 6 spots on him. Do I have to medicate, or can I just siphon 1 or 2 gallons a day from the bottom of the tank, hoping for him to battle this on his own.  
<Actually, the procedure is 100% changes, siphoning from the bottom of the bare quarantine tank. By doing this, you're removing any encysted stages of the parasite that may be present. It's not that traumatic, actually, if you are using water from your display tank as the QT water. You're simply replacing the water in the QT with water of the exact same temperature and composition; the same water that the fish will be living in for the rest of his life. Really pretty safe! I'd try this before I'd resort to chemicals, particularly with Centropyge species. Lon-term use of copper is a definite no-no with these guys.>
He is still eating.  I don't want to give him a fresh water dip (my usual procedure) because I gave him one when I first got him and he didn't like it, tried to jump, spitting water at surface, etc...  I think that the stress from the dip may have actually triggered the ich.
<Possible. Centropyge don't take well to FW dips on occasion! I agree with your decision not to do a dip again.>
By the way I don't think I did anything wrong with the first dip, ph adjusted, temp adjusted, aerated R/O water, about 8 min.s long, the same procedure I have used with success on my tangs).
<Yep- you did fine. A great procedure; it's just that some fishes don't take well to it!>
If you feel I can wait this out, at what point, or what signs would
you wait for to determine if I have to take further action?  i.e.: just watch him if he is acting normally with just a few spots, medicate him if he is showing further signs of disease like scratching and more spots.
<You're reading my mind!>
If I should medicate him, what do you recommend?
<I'd consider a product with Formalin in lieu of Copper Sulphate>
Thanks for your help.
<Glad to be of assistance. I think that you are on the right track here. Keep this guy eating a variety of foods, give him excellent water quality, use the water change technique and he may just pull through without any other intervention required! Good luck! Regards, Scott F>

Attacking Ich!
I bought a coral beauty a week and a half ago.  It looked great in the store, and initially after getting it home.  I freshwater dipped it for 4 and a half minutes and put it in a 10 gal quarantine, and began the whole waiting thing.
<Good to hear that!>
I noticed about 3 days after getting it home that it had a dusting of tiny white spots. I guessed this was ich, and planned to get medicine the next day. When I got up the next day, the spots were gone. I figured maybe the fish was just stressed from the dip?  I did not medicate. It looked fine (no spots) for about a week, but yesterday I noticed that it once again had a dusting of white spots.  I gave him a 9 and a half minute freshwater dip (ph and temp adjusted), and totally drained the q tank.  I washed out the quarantine tank, tossed all filter media, and cleaned everything well with tap water.  I then refilled the q tank with water from my main tank.  The q tank has an 8 watt UV on it (I know you are not big fans of these, but I had it hanging around).
<I like UV- If you have it, use it!>
Should I do anything else to ensure no ich comes back?  More dips?  Medication?
<You could continue the FW dips, and if they appear to be working, you don't need to medicate. I'm a big fan of copper sulphate as the medication of choice, but this stuff is not well-tolerated by Centropyge angelfishes. A formalin-based product is a better choice for this species, if you want to go the medication route. You could also employ 100% water changes/bottom siphoning in the quarantine tank, in the hope of removing all of the cysts/free swimming stages of the Cryptocaryon parasite from the tank...>
I can't find medication that has formalin but not malachite green anywhere around here. How long should I wait after all signs of ich are gone before adding him to my main tank?
<I'd wait at least 2 weeks, possibly 3 weeks>
I have been doing 50% water changes on the q tank every other day, but the nitrite still is usually around 1 ppm.  I know this is not great, but I just don't have time to do water changes every day.   Will this be a problem?
<It will not be a source of comfort, for sure! This is one of those rare cases where it may be beneficial to use one of the commercially-available "bacteria cultures" to give a boost to the biological processes that you need to foster...>
Any advice you can give on ridding my coral beauty of ich is appreciated.  Thank you, Ken Roe
<I hope that these ideas will give you some food for thought. Regards, Scott F.>

Fish in transit... with ich?
    On 2/11/05 I bought the final fish for my 75 gallon tank - a Flame angel.  When I saw her in the tank in the LFS there were two of them.  The one in the tank just above the one she was in appeared to me to have ich.  In fact I said to the dealer, "it looks like this one has a little ich" and he said, "I don't see any ich".  She, on the other hand, looked good and I saw no sign of ich at all.
     I brought her home and put her in my 29 gallon quarantine tank (that has two small pieces of live rock in it ( otherwise bare).  I had to go on an overnight trip to Baton Rouge on Thursday but placed a small amt of flake food in two cups (one for Thursday night and one for Friday morning) for someone else to feed while I was gone.  Came home this evening and it appears to me that she might now have ich on her caudal fin.  I don't see any on her pectoral fins but she moves pretty fast and it's hard to tell.  I'm not sure it's ich (I keep trying to convince myself that maybe it's food remnants that are stuck to her fin) but I'm thinking maybe it is.  Otherwise she looks great - good weight, great color, etc.  
    What should be my next step?  Should I keep her in quarantine and not treat her - on the theory that it will go away by itself?
Should I try a freshwater dip (which scares me), or should I take the live rock out of the Q tank and start copper therapy?  If I take the live rock out of the Q tank, is it safe to put it back into my main system if it has been exposed to a fish with ich?
    I'd very much appreciate your advice on this.  
    Thanks,
    Toni
<I would do the first... keep the fish in quarantine... and not treat it. Did you dip this fish on the way to being placed in quarantine? I definitely would do so on the way to your main display. Bob Fenner>

Re: Fish in transit... with ich?
Well, I didn't do the freshwater dip (because I was afraid) but I watched the fish for almost a week more and then on Thursday the 17th I was sure that the fish had something. There was something on both his caudal fin and his pectoral fins. On Friday the 18th I noticed that the fish was now swimming at the top of the water column?? I then did a water change, tested the water to make sure everything was ok - which is was - removed the live rock to a bucket of saltwater taken from my main tank and added a powerhead to that. Now the fish was in a bare tank. I removed the sponge carbon filter and
threw it away and added a little less than three capfuls of ParaGuard to the 29 gallon quarantine tank. I woke up this morning and the fish was dead.
<From?>
After removing the fish from the water it appeared to me that a small portion of his caudal fin was gone. I thought maybe he had tail and fin rot. I'm really worried about how I'm doing things now. Is it possible for a fish that looked healthy in the LFS to come home to a QTank and in 3 weeks develop tail and fin rot and die?
<Yes... but... to be clear/er... the "rot" is/was very likely just decomposition... happens quickly>
The other flame fish that was in the tank above her in the LFS is still there. This is a tough hobby if you live in a small town. There are 2 fish stores in this land-locked town and I have concerns about how cavalier they are with their livestock. Neither store does any quarantining.
<Even if they did, I would still do my own>
One store has every tank in the store on the same water system so I think if there's something in one tank it's in all their tanks. The other store has very poor management and goes for long periods with no fish at all. 
<Mmm, there's always "mail order">
Tonight I put a new carbon sponge filter in the QTank to remove what ParaGuard might be in there. What is your advice on whether or not I should put the live rock back into the Qtank?  I worry it might have organisms on it from the sick fish and contribute to the death of any other fish I eventually place in there. What do you think? Should I throw the live rock out? Would it ever be safe to put back into may main tank?
<Yes... leave it somewhere... in the quarantine system... for a month and no problem>
Also when will it be safe to put another fish in the QTank?
<Another month plus>
Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Toni
<Toni, you would do well to have one or two good reference books that you could read "all the way through" and gain a good/thorough understanding of what is going on here? I sense a profound desire to understand, and can assure you that the "experiential" model/mode of learning as you've been doing is very unsatisfying... There are many disparate, spirited, opposed opinions/facts re aquatic animal health... hard to discern them w/o a complete background in set-up, maintenance, simple chemistry and physics... Bob Fenner> 

Help me Save my Coral Beauty
Hi guys...
<Ceri>
Well I just bought a Coral Beauty Angel, he looked OK in the LFS but the next day after bringing him home he developed white patches on the fins and I am starting to see small white specs on him.
<Man, this is the year for parasitic troubles!>
Not many just a few. So, I read, read, and read some more on your site. This is what I have done. Good news, I put him directly in a QT tank. I have raised temperature to 80 and lower salinity for hyposalinity conditions. I have also ordered some Methylene Blue and CopperSafe.
<Good moves>
So, here are the questions. How many times do I perform the fresh water dip with Methylene Blue? Only once?
<Once (on the way into QT) is best>
Once a day? Leave him there for 3-5 minutes?
<About right...>
How do I know if this stresses the fish?
<Observation... that the fish isn't laying over "too much", breathing "too hard"...>
Also, won't putting him back into the affected water re-start the ich?
<Bingo, yes... the reason the dip/bath is best performed en route...>
Should I start the copper treatment as soon as he is returned to tank?
<ASAP>
If he looks better I understand I need to stop the copper treatment through water changes.
<Actually, no... you need to keep a physiological dose of free/cupric ion present for the two week treatment period... you may well not see the "ich itself"...>
I then want to bring water to the same conditions as my main tank. I am worried that lowering the temperature will bring Ich back, is that possible?
<Not if it is not present...>
Please advise, I want to save this guy. So far, he still looks good, but not eating as well today. Poor thing has no algae to eat in the QT, hope this is OK. I have never done a fresh water dip before, I am probably more stressed than the fish!
Thanks...Ceri.
<Likely... these baths are not of themselves that much strain on the fish... the netting is far worse... Bob Fenner><<Wish I would have emphasized that once the Cryptocaryon was off the hosts, it would not "magically" reappear like freshwater (Ichthyophthiriasis) ich. RMF>>

Re: Help me Save my Coral Beauty
Thanks Bob, really appreciate your help. Since catching this guy will be stressful...and I would have to put him back into the same QT, should I skip the dip and go for the copper only?
<Yes, I would. Thanks for the clarification>
(yes lessoned learned, will dip all new first FIRST) Copper hasn't arrived yet, I will start as soon as it does. Do I keep the water at hyposalinity during the copper, or can I bring it back to normal?
Thanks...Ceri
<Can leave low if the fishes being treated are not "too" stressed already... a balance my friend. Bob Fenner> 

Re: Help me Save my Coral Beauty, ich
Great, thanks Bob. I will slowly bring water conditions back up to normal. I don't want to fight monitoring copper and hyposalinity tank at the same time. My QT has live rock and substrate it in (thanks to LFS who suckered me into it). I will remove before starting copper treatment as I understand it makes an accurate reading difficult
<Actually will quickly absorb the copper>
(from the FAQs on your site !!) and will ease in removal of these nasty bugs !!
Thanks for the support. Ceri.
<You're welcome my friend. Steady on. Bob Fenner>

Coral Beauty/Copper - Follow-up
Hi guys...well I am sad to say my Coral Beauty has taken a turn for the worse. I started copper and now he looks TERRIBLE. Appears as if there are no white specs on him, but there is a large white fuzzy patch, that is growing, right next to his, well, butt. Nitrite and Ammonia levels have spiked through the roof. I did a 20% water change Fri, 50% water change yesterday, and 50% water change today and levels are still high. I have decided to stop the copper and just focus on getting the water to normal. I added PolyFilter... 
<Good> 
... and added a new filter cartridge in the Emperor 280. Question is, what happened to this poor fish? Does copper kill the bacterial function of the filter?
<Yes, especially at the .25 level I see below> 
I am desperate and just don't know what is wrong with him, or how to help. Please advise. The directions on the bottle are not clear, and the copper test kit always read over .25 of copper in the tank, even after water changes. 
<Copper is an effective method of killing diseases if used properly and with care. For angels, the copper level shouldn't exceed .15, .25 is dangerous. Are you using an ionic copper or chelated, or which brand/type are you using?>
Was the treatment done in quarantine in a rock/substrate free tank?  Also, since I was reading your site last night, I have a question for my main 65 gal tank. I have 75 lbs live rock, Fluval 404 with carbon and bio-material, Emperor 400 bio-wheel, and a Prism skimmer. Should remove the bio-filter material from the Fluval 404? Is this adding nitrates?
<I don't believe you have enough live rock to remove the bio material. Yes the rings can increase nitrate slightly.> 
Also the Fluval is adding tons of tiny bubbles in the tank, I was thinking of replacing it with a Eheim Wet/Dry canister filter. Is this a good choice? 
<There are better ways for less $. Even though the Prizm is rated for a tank your size, it is not that efficient to handle it. I use one myself on my 29 mini reef. Just great for that.> 
If it is, I should not use the bio- material for that as well since I have live rock - right?
< If it were me, I would seriously think about adding a hang-on refugium with a live sand base and add some Caulerpa. This will help control the nitrates and nuisance algae. You will need to buy a small PC fixture to place over the refugium. CPR is coming out with their hang-on that includes a built-in skimmer. This would add to the skimming efficiency of your system.>
Question 3 - sorry - full of uncertainty today. I will do a freshwater dip with Meth. Blue for each new fish from now on BUT - the directions say to leave the fish only in the dip 10 seconds. I have read that the fish should be there 3 to 5 MINUTES. Which one is correct? And to be safe, it is good to dip when moving from the QT to the main tank just as an extra precaution? What is the correct concentration of blue to use? 
<I'd follow info on the bottle.  Here is a link on disease prevention that has info on FW dipping. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm. James (Salty Dog)> 

Coral Beauty/Copper Follow-up, Doesn't Look Good..
Thanks for quick reply. Sorry to say, Coral Beauty basically dead. On it's side breathing very hard, I added water, and some of the bio-material from my main tank to QT tank, but afraid it is too late.  Yes the QT is rock and substrate free (well there is a teeny bit on the bottom since I removed existing substrate before treatment.) I used 7ml of CopperSafe for 10 gal tank, per directions. I feel terrible, I just killed this innocent fish. I really want to be sure this does not happen again. Directions said to leave in the copper filter, was that a good idea? 
<Ceri, usually when a fish gets that bad, copper will just finish it off. It' very important to treat right at the onset of the disease. If the directions say to leave the carbon in place, then that's what I'd do. Sorry. James (Salty Dog)>