Please help the ich...   11/7/06
Hi All,
<Howdy>
You have an amazing website - if only we had found you earlier.
<Ohhh...>
We have done the big no no - and not used a qt tank, And I guess its no we are emailing you now!!
We are in the process of setting up a qt tank (better late than never).
We have a blue cheek goby, flame angel, purple tang, and Two clowns. The tang was the last addition, and also brought marine ich with it.
From what I have read on the site a dip of around 15 minutes Would be appropriate.
<?... not as a specific treatment... unless you were doing successive dips and moving the infested fishes to all-new (ich-free) settings in turn>
However what would be the best additive for The dip? Am thinking Methylene Blue?
<Mmm... what is the purpose here? Methylene Blue is most useful for dip/acclimation procedures, not for treating marine parasitic problems>
Also - for the QT tank - what would be the best course of treatment For this combination of fish? We're not sure if copper is appropriate
<Is>
for clowns?
We have already begun to lift our temp currently 26c was 25, and dropping
The salinity currently 1.022. was 1.023
Thanks for any advice you can provide.
Paula and Andrew.
<I'd do a bit more reading... and quick! Before you set upon a treatment plan here. Bob Fenner>

Marine ich-- how long can it survive essentially fresh water situation?
I'm sorry if this has been answered before but I can't seem to find the answer using the search.
My question is: With a marine system with ich at 78 degrees, if I exchange all the water and put in RO water so that the system now is essentially 1.000 sp grav, how long do I need to leave it as such before adding salt and bringing system back to 1.024. I basically have rock, sand with no corals and now, no fish.  All I have seen answered before is when the tank is left fallow but at ~1.024 sp grav. --6 to 8 weeks. Thank you.
<I suspect, if there is not much mulm, detritus, muck... most all ich/crypt should be killed within a few to several hours. Unfortunately, I have heard, read anecdotes stating that this parasite withstood weeks of freshwater exposure in "dirty" tanks that had their fish and other livestock removed... Best to go the biocide route and bleach/wash such systems to be absolutely sure. Bob Fenner>

Marine Ich
Hi, 
<Hello Cindy>
We have a 150 gallon tank with live sand and live rock and corals. The fish currently have white spots on their bodies, and some have white spots on their eyes. Some also look like their fins are being eaten away. 
<Not good> 
We have a 90 gallon tank that we are going to set up as a quarantine. What type of medication do you recommend. 
<The most effective medication is copper. Two products that work are CopperSafe by Mardel and Cupramine by SeaChem.> 
Will the crabs and shrimp be ok left in the main tank. They won't carry ich will they? 
<No> 
How long will the fish need to be left out of the main tank to get rid of the ich in the sand and on the rocks. 
<To be safe, a minimum of 28 days. You can lower this to 21 days if you raise the temperature in your main tank to 82. It will cause the cysts to develop faster and be exposed to the copper.> 
What do we put on the bottom of the tank. 
<Nothing at all in the QT. Any gravel etc will absorb some of the copper. I would put pieces of assorted PVC pipe in the tank for security/hiding spots.> 
We have tangs, a goby, flame and coral beauty, and clown fish. Thanks, Cindy 
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)> 

Ich 150 gallon tank, Follow-up..??
Thank you for your quick response. 
<You're welcome> 
We will be keeping our fish in the QT tank for about 2 months. Is it necessary to remove the copper from the water since they will be housed in the water for the 2 months and if so how is this done? 
<Cindy, I wouldn't remove the copper until they are fully cured, and maintain an effective level of copper. When it is time to remove the copper, you can use a Polyfilter or Chemi-Pure.> 
The fish appear to be eating well but some still have white spots on their fins and some fins are eaten away especially in the long nose butterfly and our Pseudochromis. I hope they could recover. We have had them for over a year now. We are also using Mardel Maracyn along with the copper.
Thanks, Cindy
<Cindy, I'm thinking I am the one who originally answered the query. In the future please reply on the original message so we know who to address the query to. Thank you. James (Salty Dog)>

Ich 150 gallon tank, Some Sort of Follow-up
Hi it's me again. 
<And me again, also>
I need some help. I took all the fish out of the tank on Friday due to what we thought was  ich. They had spots on their bodies and some had eaten off fins. I used Maracyn and TruCopper in a 90 gallon qt tank. This morning the fish seem to have more white spots and one of my tangs now has red spots on the back end of its body. What can I do to help them? This couldn't be a sign of too much copper. I have it at .3 on the copper test. 
Thanks,
Cindy 
<Cindy, the copper level should be between .15 to .20. You need to lower that. Your level is a little too high. This treatment should continue for 30 days to be sure all the cysts have hatched and are killed. I would add some vitamins to their food to help them out. Selcon and the use of one of the garlic extracts will aid in the curing process. Also do a Google search on the Wet Web, keyword "copper treatment" and read. James (Salty Dog)>

New Tank & Tangs Follow-up
Thanks for quick response, If I do that, and it is copper based, will I be able to put Corals and Anemones back?  I thought once you introduced Copper you can not get rid of it. How long do you wait to put the stuff back after treatment? 
<Scott, yes you will be able to put your inverts back. It will take, safely, 21 to 28 days of treatment to be sure all cysts have hatched and been zapped. After that stage you will need to use a product like PolyFilter or Chemi-Pure to absorb the copper. This will have to be used until you can measure no trace of copper. James (Salty Dog)>
Thanks again! 
<You're welcome>

New Tank & Tangs - More Follow-up
James,
I hate to keep bothering you but I need to ask one more question, forgive me, I am just scared of this. But I know time is running out for the fish. Now the Coral Beauty has it. I think the only reason the fish lasted this long is they were very healthy, some even say my fish are a little over weight. What will happen to the Live sand, Rock, and filtration system,
what product would you recommend to do this. I have had my fish for over 2 years, I do not want to loose them. Thank you for your patience. 
<Scott, wasn't aware of the live rock. Any inverts more than likely won't make it through the copper treatment. But now, since the disease is in your display tank, you will have to treat it. The other choice would be to catch the fish and put them in QT and treat, and let the display run for 28 days or so. Without a host the ich will die. A Rubbermaid horse trough found at farm implement stores makes a good QT, and they are large and rather inexpensive. If you decide to treat the display tank, you can use SeaChem's Cupramine or Mardel's Copper Safe. Since you have live rock/sand (copper absorbers) you will need to use a copper test kit to insure you have a effective dose. Good luck. James (Salty Dog)>

Temperature Swings and Ich Outbreak
Hello,
<Hi there! Scott F. with you today.>
I am setting up a quarantine tank for my fish that have ich (Clown fish and Firefish). I was going to use a small ten gallon tank. I know you say to leave it bare bottom but I was wondering if I could use a crushed coral substrate or marbles or something least so nitrifying bacteria can grow on it. 
<Really not a good idea, as medications can "bind" with the substrate, rendering it less effective. Much better to "seed" a sponge or other mechanical filtration media in your display tank, then set it up in the hospital/quarantine tank when you need it.>
With out the bacteria I will probably have to do a lot of water changes right?
<You will need to make water changes regardless...Good husbandry is essential in a small body of water like a 10 gallon.>
Also can I use quick cure on salt water fish to effectively treat them?
<I have not used this medication, myself so I cannot comment on it. I prefer to use copper or formalin-based remedies for Ich.>
Also, I think I am getting an outburst of Ich because the temperature does vary in my tank. This happens especially when it gets too hot in the summer time the tank which is usually at 80 F went to 84 F overnight.
<Temperature swings can lead to stress, which, of course- can lead to illness.>
I reduced the heater and now it's at 78 F. Am I not using a good heater?
<I couldn't tell you that one! However, you may need a higher wattage heater, or perhaps more than one to do the job.>
Also, what about when I do water changes? I use a DI kit. Do most hobbyists put a heater in the water before they pour it in the display tank?
<It's a good idea to try to match the temperature in the display tank.>
I usually try to have the water coming out of the tap be close to the temp in the tank using my hands. I mean a 10 gallon water change on a 55 gallon tank shouldn't really effect the temperature of the water in the tank as long as it close to the same temp in the tank, right?
<Well, there are fish that are quite sensitive even to small temperature fluctuations. Better safe than sorry- I'd match the temperature of the display tank!>
Anyways, please get back to me. Thanks!
Saurav
<Hope I was of assistance, Saurav! Regards, Scott F.>

Mis-stocking, Crypt
Hi Mr. Fenner:
<Hello Ana>
First of all, congratulations for your site, it's great and very useful.
<Ah, good>
I have this trouble and I hope you can help me.
<Will try>
I have a 45 gal tank, 1 yellow tang, I just got a bubble tip anemone, and a pair of ocellaris clown fish and a Desjardin sailfin.
<Mmm, anemones are not easy to keep, and two Zebrasoma tangs in a system of this size are too much... the Desjardin's gets way too big for this tank... by itself... I would trade this fish back in unless you have a larger tank to move it to>
The day I get home, the anemone got sucked into the filter (I have a hang on wet-dry filter, it got sucked in the tube), I turn it off and 1 day later she found her way out of it (just was part of it sucked).
Next day she was fine,
<Or looked/appeared fine>
but today, before I turn the light on, she appears to be deflated, when I turn the light on, slowly get "fat" again.  Is that normal or is she ill?
<Normal>
Her body seems to be complete, a few tentacles out or smaller, but in general it looks fine.
The other thing is that today, the Desjardin's seem to have ick.
It has some little white spots.
<No fun>
I believe its for stress, because the yellow tang had being picking on him, and now he has the fins down, and he supposed to be sociable and he's always hidden.
What do you think.
I think to give him a dip?
I don't have quarantine tank.
<You'll need to get one>
I hope you can help me I don't have any else to ask, and you're the best.
Thanks, best
Ana Luisa
<Ana, do read re Crypt/Ich... here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
and the linked files above... till you are sure you know what you're up against... You need to move, treat your fishes now... Bob Fenner>

Curing Live Rock part 2 4/6/05
Hi Adam or any of the Crew, I put in 1 rock into my 10 gallon. I did not check PH before but it is usually between 8.2 and 8.4. Today it was 8.8 or maybe higher since that is the highest my tests show (and nitrates are down to 10-usually at 20). Most PH info is regarding raising it, will do more checking. 
<Alkalinity should be measured. This is different than pH. Alkalinity is the ability of the water to resist change in pH. Nitrates of 10 (or even 20) is nothing to worry about.>
During my cruising the Google results I found a number of statements regarding the life span of liquid testing components-6 months or less. I do not know when those were posted but is that still true? There are no expiration dates on the product that I have. 
<Ahhhh... yes. Very astute of you! Most manufacturers don't put expiration dates or lot numbers on their test kits. Better companies like Salifert, LaMotte and Hach do. Depending on the reagents, they do have a limited shelf life. Six months sounds a bit short though. It is always a good idea to double check a questionable result with another kit.>
While I have your attention I have an ick question. A few weeks ago my neon goby got it. I tried using Greenex in the tank (after which you told me that was a mistake) and I lost a chalk bass who did not look sick. The neon goby died after 2 weeks. Then my clown goby got it and I removed him (into a small bowl with a heater and airstone) and treated him with copper and after 2 weeks he looks good. I have two pajama cardinals still in the tank and they did not get ick. So the tank has not been fallow and I do not have space to keep another tank for the cardinals and goby. So what are my chances when I put the goby back in the 10 gallon?
<The Greenex probably wasn't bad, just not very helpful. I would keep the goby in quarantine for at least a total of three weeks. If the cardinals still seem to be 100% Ick free at that time, then you can move the goby back. Best Regards. AdamC.> <<RMF disagrees... all fish need to be removed... the tank left fish-less... or the crypt/ich will be back>>

Questions About My Aquarium... Learning First-hand About Marine Ich
To the people at Wet Web Media,
I started my first salt water tank (1st tank period, but I wanted to be more specific) in January. It's a 90 gallon tank that's pretty deep. We put in live sand and 80 pounds of live rock (which apparently was uncured) to start with. We have 4 power compact fluorescent lights equaling 240 watts, and a 250 watt 20k metal halide light (the metal halide was added later, we were originally told that the power compact lights would be enough to have corals and anemones. We found out later that was completely wrong and added the metal halide). After the tank was cycled, we added a couple of fish every couple of weeks.
<Quarantined?>
We ended up having 6 damsels, a lawnmower blenny, a rusty angel, powder blue tang, maroon clown, an oval butterfly (which we removed immediately once we realized he was eating everything in our tank), and a 6-line wrasse. About a month ago, we realized that the tang and the angel had ick. The angel was the first to go, then one of the damsels, then the blenny, then the rest excluding one of our yellow damsels and the 6-line wrasse. To this date they still don't have any signs of ick.
<Uhh... likely your system does still "have it"...>
It's been about 3 weeks since the last fish died that had any signs of ick on it. Since we read that the ick cycle is only 2 weeks, we went out a week ago and got a mandarin goby, a firefish, a bar goby, and another fish that we were told was a goby, but when we looked it up online, it appears to be a fridmani Pseudochromis. The mandarin goby died a couple of days ago. We were hoping he would survive since we have plenty of copepods living on our rock. So in the tank we have those 3 new fish, a yellow damsel, and a 6-line wrasse. The new fish however appear to have ick.
<... yes>
We used an entire bottle of Rid-Ick the first time our tank had ick, and obviously it didn't work.
<Agreed...>
We thought avoiding fish like tangs and angels would lessen the likelihood of an ick outbreak. 
<Mmm, do understand... though you may not observe the actual "spots" (a reaction by fish hosts), the ich/crypt is still present... and will be, until is either killed or starved... by the removal of hosts>
I know that all fish can get ick, but are there any that are less likely to break out?
<All sorts>
I tried to do research on gobies and Anthias, but I haven't found anything that says they are or aren't prone to ick outbreaks. Is it safe to get a couple Anthias?
<Safe? In terms of avoiding ich? No>
Would it be safe to try getting another clown? I don't want to put a death sentence on these fish just because I don't know any better (and because I can't use copper-based medications). Also when would be a good time to get a rose bubble tip anemone? Thanks so much.
Sincerely,
Natalie
<Mmm, Natalie... time to take a giant stride backward... ten big breaths... You need to really understand what you have going on here... The protozoan/problem is ensconced in your system... Put another way, your system has the ich... the only practical way at this juncture to eradicate it is to remove your fish life to another system (perhaps pH adjusted freshwater dipping them in transit), treating them (with copper) in another system... taking care to monitor water quality... and starve out the crypt in your main system by allowing it to go fish-less for a month or more. Going forward, you will want to carefully select, isolate (quarantine) all new fish livestock... There is much archived on our sites, elsewhere to help you... I strongly encourage you to read our disease areas: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm.  Particularly those that deal with parasitic disease. Bob Fenner> 

Ich-free tank - an impossibility? (4/5/05)
Dear crew, thanks for such a fantastic website: wish we'd found it ages ago - might not be sending you this email if we had! Sorry to be asking yet another question about ich, but couldn't find a definitive answer among the ones already on the site. 
<No problem. I'll try to help here.>
We've recently lost 3 fish (2 bicolour blennies and a Gramma) to ich (or at least that's what we think it is - could conceivably be velvet, but definitely obvious white spots on fins of affected damsels, and lots of scratching). 
<Sorry to hear. Sounds more like crypto than velvet, which is usually more virulent.> 
We've decided to remove the two remaining fish (green Chromis) to a hospital tank, and treat with copper, whilst leaving the main tank to go fallow for at least 6 weeks (?8 better). 
<If you can do 8, I'd say the extra insurance is worth it.> 
We're desperate not to have the same problems again, and will do anything possible to keep ich out of tank. 
<I know the feeling.>
Making the (slightly doubtful) assumption that both the main tank and the treated damsels should be crypt-free after this process, how can we ensure that we never reintroduce the parasite with new fish? 
<4 weeks in quarantine before putting them into the main. Treat if symptoms develop.> 
The reason I ask is that we have quarantined all our fish for at least 2 weeks before addition to the main tank, and had not noticed any problems with them in that period. 
<Could be you got a low-level infestation in your main in some other way. Could be that 2 weeks is too short.> 
Given that most fish seem to "carry" the parasite, but only become symptomatic when stressed, it seems perfectly possible that a new addition might not show any signs of ich during even a prolonged quarantine period, but still introduce a small number of the pathogens to the main tank. 
<I do not completely accept the premise that all fish "carry" it. Also, shipping, life at the fish store, netting and taking home, plus putting into quarantine ought to be enough stress to bring it forth if this were the way it worked. Stress probably does make them more vulnerable, but if there's no sign of it in QT, I doubt they have it. The life cycle of crypto is such that I would expect it to blossom to a readily visible level in such small quarters within 4 weeks. I suspect that a fish that shows ich after that long in QT after being put in the main got it in the main. It is quite possible to have a low level of ich in a tank and never see it if your fish are strong and you have cleaners.> 
I've heard of people treating all new additions with copper whilst in quarantine, even without any signs of illness - is this a good idea, or will it do more harm than good? 
<I'm not a fan of that sort of prophylaxis. It's too easy to screw up with copper. If you want prophylaxis, I'd argue more for freshwater/Methylene blue dips. There's a whole section about this on WWM.> 
I wondered about deliberately keeping the water quality in the quarantine tank relatively poor to "bring out" any signs of parasite infection in new additions, but this seems cruel and unethical! 
<You are right about that. Harmful as well. As above, there's plenty of stress already.> 
Also wondered about a UV sterilizer, but get the feeling they probably aren't the answer. 
<They have a roll and Scott Michael has written of his perception of their value. You may be able to find this on the web. It was in either the 2004 or 2005 edition of Aquarium USA almanac. Rather an expensive way to go though. There were a couple of great article series about crypto in the past couple of years at www.reefkeeping.com and www.advancedaquarist.com> 
Many Thanks for your thoughts, Jim+Jo 
<You're welcome. I hope you find them useful. Steve Allen> 

Counterstrike Against Ich!
Hi, first off I'd like to thank you for all the great advice and info you provide here, your site truly is the holy grail of keeping fish.
<Thanks for the kind words! We really get a kick out of this stuff, and we're glad that you do, too! Scott F. here today!>
I have a 55gallon reef system with 50lbs aragonite sand, 60lbs live rock, various LPS corals, 4 Blue Chromis, one Clownfish, and one Kole Tang. Water quality is very good, zero on nitrates and 0.25mg/ml for phosphates I believe. I've had the tank running now for about 5 months now, and everything was going great until about a week ago. I noticed that the Kole Tang had a few white spots on his fins and sides, and I'm pretty sure it's an Ich problem. 
<If it looks like Ich, sounds like Ich, then....Well, you get the idea!>
The only fish that I recently introduced to my system (3 weeks ago) was the clownfish, and He was quarantined both by the store owner whom I bought him from (which is a GREAT service), and by myself (freshwater dip I also did).
<Good job!>
I absolutely LOVE this Kole Tang (I called him MR. T!!!, ...yea I'm a Rocky Fan..).
<One of my personal favorite fishes, particularly the Polynesian form with the white tail!>
I removed the Kole Tang from the display tank (Very hard to catch these guys...) did a freshwater/Meth blue dip for him, and then moved him to a 10gal QT tank where he currently resides. I know that my whole reef system is now infected with Ich, however none of the other fish appear to have any white spots. My question is, will the ich stay in my display tank even though my other 5 fish don't appear to have the disease?
<Well, no one can be 100% certain, but I'd operate on the assumption that it is in your system.>
If they're "strong" fish, will the parasite not be able to finish off its life cycle by attaching itself to the fish? Or should I get another QT tank and separate these fish as well (I don't think all 6 fish would make out to well in a 10gal QT tank)?
<Well, I'm the conservative type, and I've won many battles with this disease over my "career", and I've always done it the "dirty" way- taking all of the fish out for observation and/or treatment, and letting the display run without fishes for a month or so. This "fallow" period will disrupt the life cycle of the causative protozoa, greatly reducing the population of these nasties down to a level that your re-introduced fishes should be able to resist.>
Lastly, how long does your system have to run fallow for Ich to die, I've read here that it can stay dormant for months.... if that's the case, then wouldn't you have to QT your fish for months as well?
<Good questions...I'd go for a month. As far as quarantine goes- I use 3-4 weeks, because if anything is gonna manifest itself on your new fishes, it's going to happen within 3-4 weeks almost for certain.>
Or, is the goal to just kill off as much of the parasite as you possibly can?
<Yep. No remedy is 100% successful at eradicating Ich, short of absolutely "nuking" the display with copper or breaking down the tank, but the fallow strategy is the most effective means at eradicating the disease both in the display and on the fishes that I have encountered.>
I know...a lot of questions, But thanks for your time and help, we all appreciate it-Mark
<Glad to be of service, Mark. Hope your battle is successful! Regards, Scott F.>

ICH saltwater
Hey Crew,
<Hello, MikeB here.>
I read your article on a quarantine tank. I wanted to run this by you: I have bought 15 gallon Rubbermaid tub. Is one tub large enough for my four fish... Royal Gramma, percula clown, algae blenny, and a fire fish?
<For use as a quarantine in the short term, Yes it is ok.> 
If it's not large enough how many of these tubs would I need. Also, you don't mention anything in your FAQ's about how often you have to change your water in the qt tank. Because it won't have sand or live rock I can imagine the ammonia builds up quickly.
<I change the water when ever the quality starts to drop off. I.E. spikes in ammonia, nitrate and add buffer for drops in PH. But be careful on the buffer. Water changes are the best.> 
And this has to be done for four weeks?
<At least 4 weeks.> 
Also will the need for water changes diminish as the weeks go on or will the copper kill the good bacteria forming?
<No, you treat the water that you change (or new water) with copper to keep the same concentration level.> 
Also because there won't be any sand there will be nothing to buffer the water to keep ph at 8.2 does this mean I will have to add a buffer?
<Regular water changes will do the job. Adding the buffer could be tricky and you don't want big fluctuations in your PH.> 
Also I have a test kit that's made by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Inc. it says freshwater/saltwater test kit. In your FAQ it says there are two kinds of copper chelated and another one. Do you know which kind of copper solution this tests for? Thanks!
<Off hand I don't. I like using the SeaChem FasTest test kits. I personally find them easiest to read. Good Luck. MikeB.>

S/W Ich Treatment 4.4.05
Hello Crew,
<Hello, Ryan with you today.>
I have a question for you. I have had ICH in my salt water 55 gallon tank for about a month now. Actually only my royal Gramma has been showing any signs of it. It started off slow with a few spots like maybe four. After that I treated it with ruby reef's kick ich. The bottles are so expensive and it didn't do anything the ich got worse. And the royal Gramma is dying I think. I have 3 other fish in there a percula clown, firefish, and an algae blenny. None of the other fish have shown any signs of ich.
<This is a parasite, and it will infect all the fish that it is exposed to (in time, given enough parasites).>
Should I just remove the royal Gramma? Do you think the immune systems of the other fish are stronger?
<Strong enough to delay the infection...Not beat it.>
The royal Gramma btw was the only fish that was mail ordered, maybe that lowered its immune system. Please let me know what I should do. I don't have a qt tank (I know you suggest Copper) large enough for all four fish plus they hide in the rocks if I try to take them out. What should I do?
<You need to buy a large Rubbermaid tub, maybe a few of them. You'll either need to quarantine the selections, or they'll fall victim to the parasites. Sorry, but if there was a magic answer, you would have read it on the FAQs. Good luck, Ryan> 

White spirals on aquarium glass Follow-up - You're Gonna Make this Guy's Head Swell!
You guys are GREAT !! THANKS.
<You're too kind>
I do have ONE more topic of discussion... and it's ICK. As mentioned, I had a devastating case. The tank has been hyposalinated for almost 2 weeks (1.014). I must have changed about 25 gallons of the water in 3 water changes; which included sucking the live sand, and using my 802 powerhead as a "Broom" to blow out the live rock and sand.  I have not used any meds, cuz I have 60-some odd pounds of live sand, and only the Lord knows how many pounds of live rock...
<Yes, meds are a quick way to turn live sand and rock into dead sand and rock>
Only 2 damsels are swimmin' and there are NO spots on them.
<This is good>
How does one know when all those nasty buggers are dead? Not for nothin', there is a new QT to avoid this in the future...
<If you see no signs of crypto for a month you should be home free, but I would move those two damsels into your new QT and leave them there for at least two weeks - M. Maddox>

Knocking Out Ich- Once and For All!
Hi guys 
<Scott F. your guy tonight!>
This is clearly the best information and advice site available. I currently have a 55 gal. FO with a Bak Pak, Eheim 2215 canister, Emperor Aquatics 18w UV and a Seio pump for extra flow. I left the hobby several years ago because of recurrent Cyanobacteria and now I'm being frustrated by recurrent white spot. I certainly know now after reading many FAQs that a quarantine tank is a must.
<Yes! Yes! Yes!>
My LFS advised "treating the whole tank" with Cupramine which worked well the first time.
<Sure it did, but that's really not the best way, IMO.>
My question is would it be ok to retreat the entire system with fish (Flame angle, Percula clown, Royal Gramma and Heniochus butterfly) included with Cupramine for 2 weeks then adopt the mandatory QT for future new fish.
<Well, if you're not concerned about using copper in your display tank, and are very careful at monitoring the copper level, you can go for it. My preferred method is to treat the fishes in a separate tank while letting the display tank run "fallow" for at least a month, as you may have read here before. It's not the only way, but it is a very effective technique, IMO.>
I also worry about being able to handle any biologic load in the QT without an established filter. Do you think a filter sponge to be used in a small hang on filter for the QT would work well if placed in my canister filter?
<That's my recommended technique. I wrote an article in FAMA a while back, that's also here on the WWM site about quarantine, which outlines this technique in detail. Check it out at: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/QuarMarFishes.htm >
Thank you very much!
<My pleasure! Regards, Scott F.> 

Haven't Seen This Covered on Site.. Actually is... Many, many times/places: 
Crypt, lack of quarantine...
Hello again trusted advisors.
<Howdy, fellow hobbyist>
I thought I did the right thing with my fish, but I must have fouled it somewhere. May I begin?  We are 6 months new to the hobby and have 135 g + refugium,G3 skimmer (aprox 40 g sump) and a 55 g q.t. with a wet dry filter (is regular lighting o.k. for q.t. or do I need low level aquarium light?).
<Lower is better for most species, circumstances>
References used on *daily*basis: 
Natural Reef Aquariums (Tullock); 
Surgeonfishes & Rabbitfishes (Kuiter & Debelius); 
Saltwater Aquarium Handbook (1st purchase) (Blasiola); 
Aquarium Corals: Selection, Husbandry, History (Borneman); 
The Conscientious Marine (Fenner); 
Marine Fishes (Michael); 
Reef secrets and Ultimate Marine Aquariums (Paletta's); 
Blue Planet (Discovery Channel - By Att, Fothergill & Holmes). 
I also read this site and others as well as 3 or more times a week speak to the surrounding areas LFS owners and more experienced staff.
<Great coverage>
That being said, please know that I am still not able to decide the best case in this particular matter.
<Happens>
The 135 is been running for 3mo and I had q.t my fish for 3 weeks, because the store I purchased them at told me they had always been q.t. for at least 1 week b-4 they release them to the floor.
<Mmm...> 
My bad. Regardless, I had a 3" Kole, a wild perc2', and a long tentacle anemone in the 135 that came from my 3 mo. old q.t. (used to be main tank). I have a Chromis which was purchased for a small hippo tang (2"+ very blue!). Well 6 were bought, but only 2 made it. They were in q.t. and added to main together...sorry, the hippo and 2 Chromis. The 1 Chromis has some "peeling" skin and almost a more "delicate" looking left hand side (translucent-ish) and the hippo got ich (I'm not kidding) in 3 hours! 
<Also happens>
I stay at home for my boys and husband and pay a lot of attention to these lovely creatures. So Now I have a dilemma - I had ordered a special Aussie Orange shoulder tang and he has arrived.
<Mmm, this species can be a "bruiser"... keep your eye on it and the other fishes' interaction... best to plan on having it be the alpha fish>
He is about 3" and in q.t. The problem is this.. I also had a hippo in there for my neighbor, who discovered he deadly high 'trates, so we made the obvious move. At the time, I didn't think of the draw back to putting fish in at different times from diff. places etc...now I do. He also came down with Ich. After doing as much as I could to find out the best med for sensitive tangs, I discovered Cupramine and dosed my tank tonight, but did not realize my husband didn't remove carbon as asked, so I took it out about 20 min-30 after treating and then I tested and it reads at 1pp and needs to be at 4 after 2nd dose in 48 hours. Do you think this is safe for tangs (level) and how do I get more med in there if I absorbed a little on 1st day, without shocking their systems?
<Is about the best med. for this setting... not likely overly-toxic>
What do I do re: wet dry?
<Nothing>
I bought this SeaChem pouch filter in case I needed it, and how long do I leave them treated?
<Two weeks>
And now for the BIG One...Do I capture the fish in show tank and add to q.t. before They get whatever Chromis has or the Ich that my blue hippo has in my show tank?
<... all need to be treated... including the main tank... but not likely able to do with the carbonaceous material present (will be readily, too readily absorbed... let's "cut to the chase" here. What you really will likely need to do is remove all fish livestock from the 135, treat in another system (larger than your present QT) and leave the main tank to go w/o fish hosts for at least a month... Including raising temp., lowering spg.... this is gone over and over on WWM...>
(So,1 hippo in show & 1 in q.t w/ich.) The fish in 135 are 4" Blonde Naso, 3 anthias(2" ea.) percula 2", Kole tang 3", hippo tang 2", 2 sm. chromies1" max and 1 little scooter blenny. I do have a few corals and 2 anemones.
<Oh! Do NOT place Cupramine in with these non-fishes! All copper compounds are toxic to them>
I definitely will not make this mistake again...
<Uhh, then develop and adhere to a strict (your own) quarantine procedure>
...but I really thought I was doing what was recommended.
<Umm, "think for yourself"...>
Should I dip them if captured and on their way to Q.T?
<Probably not worthwhile>
I know my husband does NOT want to re-do reef, but ethically and morally a little time and inconvenience to save these
and future lives are a fine trade. What is suggestion, and beside wet web, where would you recommend me go for resources if I needed thorough and quick resources which are readily available w/out cruising many threads and topics? (Let's say in an emergency). Absolutely gracious in advance for your timely reply.' tanks' a lot,  regards, Anjie
<Mmm, if you can find it (expensive to by), look for Ed Noga's title (I think it's "Fish Disease, Diagnosis & Treatment") at a large/college library. Bob Fenner>

Re: I haven't seen this covered on site. Ich follow-up - Please use Spacing, please?
Thanks for your advise Mr. Fenner, I'm honored to have been in direct communication with you. Please allow me to clarify the last message sent in exhaustion. I would not consider putting copper in main tank, but have considered Kick Ick...
<Don't use this placebo product>
...although I have heard mixed info on effectiveness. You do think that it is necessary to catch the fish even while disturbing the rock and corals (I would carefully move them to a different place w/in tank to capture fish) or would you recommend the corals coming out as well? 
<This is posted... along with a bunch of other information you will want to understand... here: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm >
If so, how do I create a q.t. safe for them?
<Read the above... QUICK>
I have seen all of the numerous info. on Q.t. on your site, but I meant to say, I couldn't (in a timely manner; under 2 hours) find the similar issue I faced.
<Then... you haven't investigated thoroughly. Use the indices, Google search tool there or the homepage.>
Re: orange Shoulder, I have heard the opposite about the behavior. Unless the species from Aussie is different??
<Mmm, no... Acanthurus olivaceus... is this the species you're referring to? Almost always grows to be a bully in captivity>
Should he go into tank after all fish have been in q.t. as the last one even though he is 3 inches and a baby?
<All need to be treated... in isolation>
My Kole tang is recently going bonkers on his reflection and I have put a backing up and left the algae to cover the 3 walls, what would you recommend? 
<Posted on WWM>
He also was pretty aggressive to Naso when he was placed in tank at a later date, but the Naso didn't seem to care and now they hang out together. Do you think there will a problem w/orange shoulder and Kole?
<Yes>
Lastly. The only option I know I have at my immediate dispense for a larger tank to treat all the fish is my son's 55 gal. fresh water tank that we broke down last week. He had a canister filter. If we took water from main tank and set it up, what else would we need to make it right for the fish?
<Posted>
I never put a sponge in main tank because I thought the current set up would suffice. Thank you for your time again! Best to you, Anjie
<Read... and soon my friend... Your livestock are in imminent danger/possibility of dying. Bob Fenner> 

Re: ICK Question ATTN: Bob Fenner
No problem about the delayed response. Any response at all is greatly appreciated. I began adding Aquarisol at 2/3 the recommended dosage. 
<Ah, good>
I have, so far, only done this for two days. How many days should I keep up this regimen?
<I would add it every three days at the proscribed dosage for three treatments... see if this "does it">
I am sorry to ask you this, but the bottle is very nondescript. 
-Brody
<Life to you my friend. Bob Fenner>

Malachite green/quinine and ich
G'day guys,
<Good morning Luke, MacL here with you today.>
I have found your site most informative. 
<Many thanks for the nice words.> 
I have a 530 litre, 5 foot by 2 foot, by 2 foot Tropical reef tank set up. In my tank I have 2 Pajama cardinal fish, 3 Green Chromis, 1 regal tang, 1 mimic tang, 1 mandarin fish, 1 scooter ( Neosynchiropus ocellatus ). I also have 1 pink Goniopora - bowling ball size, 1 green Goniopora - apple size, 2 species of Discosoma, 1 group of Zoanthus and 2 Anemones. I have a wall of live rock along the back of my set up, Serpulorbis inopertus and Haliotis varia are quite common through this wall.
18 months ago I successfully treated an outbreak of Cryptocaryon irritans on my regal tang with a 4 day treatment of Quinine hydrochloride and malachite green. All of the above species in my tank survived, though the Gonioporas went into themselves for 8 days. Everything has been fine until now. 
Recently I added 1 clown wrasse, 1 18 inch snowflake eel and 1 Pentaceraster tuberculatus. I now have another out break of Cryptocaryon irritans. The regal tang has a good smearing of white spots and most of the other fish have 1 or 2 spots on them. No fish are showing physical distress YET. 
I believe the white spot came into my system on the clown wrasse though at the time of purchase no physical signs were noticeable. For future use I will be setting up a hospitable / Quarantine tank.
I know I will have to remove the Pentaceraster tuberculatus before using the same treatment as before, Quinine hydrochloride and malachite green, but I do not know if I should remove my snowflake eel? 
<Definitely take him out of the tank while the treatment is going on.>
Please your opinions would be greatly appreciated. 
<Good luck, MacL> 

Salinity and ich and very crowded tank
Hi, 
<Hi Dan, MacL here with you today.> 
I have a 55 saltwater with a porcupine puffer, goatfish, yellow tang, imperator (juv), princess parrotfish, bird wrasse, harlequin tusk, and a black splotch trigger. 
<I have to tell you, lovely selection of fish but that tank is way overcrowded. It's so easy to do when you can get those lovely lovely fish. All of those fish need their own room and lots of swimming space and there is no way they are getting it in that size tank. The tang and the goatfish would be considered the least aggressive of the fish you have in the tank. My assumption would be that they get the ich because they are the ones that are having the most time with the conditions.> 
I have only dead coral and a hermit crab who is still running around. No live rock. 
<You don't mention your filtration or your tanks testing conditions. Do you have nitrates? My guess would be that with that kind of heavy load you do have nitrates. Tanks should have zero nitrates and if you are showing any signs of them then that could be another source of the irritation and what is keeping them with the ich. Obviously the tank is in good shape or they wouldn't be getting rid of the ich at all so you are obviously on track but I honestly believe its time to get rid of some fish or get a larger tank. My suggestion would be a 120 or larger tank.> 
A couple fish get the white salt-like grains in the morning, but soon disappears by evening. The bird wrasse cleans the tang. I have dropped the salinity to 1.013 and a temp of 83F. I plan to drop down to 1.011. 
<You'll need to keep it down pretty low for at least a couple of weeks to interrupt the ich cycle. Unfortunately I don't think that will do the trick for you unless you get rid of the source of the stress on the fish that are making them vulnerable to the ich.> 
All of the fish are looking active and feeding. The spots only appear on the tang and the goatfish and a few on the trigger. 
<You might consider using garlic as well as a supplement in the food.> 
Do I have to use any chemicals? How long must I maintain these conditions? 
<I think you'll have to do something for a long time in order to keep them all ich free. We've been having a lot of success running diatom filters to get rid of ich rather than going with chemicals Dan as an alternative as well. Good luck, MacL>

Sand bed and Ich concerns 3/28/05
Hi again Anthony and thanks for your reply.
In regards to these statements:
"Am I missing something here? "
<Yes... over-reacting on the substrate issue my friend>
The reason I am changing out my sand bed is because a year ago I bought a pre existing tank in Dallas. I hired someone to break it down and move it 130 miles to Tyler, TX. Someone on the forum warned me not to use the old sand bed (which was almost 2 years old at the time) and replace it with new or else I would have problems with the tank.
<OK, my friend... but please understand in the limited medium of text messaging, I had no way/reason to know or presume any of this... and the chaps advice/warning that the sand would cause problems was... well, wrong. If the sand was nutrient laden when you got it, it was a problem whether or not it was going to be moved. And if the sand bed was healthy (not polluted) then the move was no big deal. 130 miles may seem like a "long" distance... but the distance from which live rock, sand, etc travels to your from far away lands is much greater, and more severe... and yet your live rock is not a "problem" for having been moved :) The dude's advise sounds was unqualified at best.>
The guy moving the tank assured me he had done this many, many times and reusing the sand bed had never been an issue.
<I agree with that chap instead <G>>
Since he was pretty convincing and we were running short on time I agreed to go along with using the old sand bed. The previous owner kept a journal and was very meticulous. His parameters always looked good for the most part. However, once the tank was moved to my home and the sand was dumped back into the tank and all of the LR, corals and fish were put in. My chemistry numbers were a bit out of whack and with a couple of water changes NH3 was 0 but nitrates and phosphates were off the chart.
<This could be from the sand stirring indeed, but it's par for the course... and does not make the sand bad. Big water changes after any move are necessary>.>
I was warned this would happen. I was doing weekly water changes that did not do any good and then started doing even larger water changes. The numbers came down some but were still very high. For almost a year I've been doing 35-40 gall water changes (120 gal tank) every one -two weeks. Sometimes a third or fourth week will slip by.
<Wow... there is no way that sand could be the source alone after so many and such large water changes. If so, you would have noticed the sand was foul and polluted from the start. You need to look to another (real) reason for these nitrates.>
I had gotten the nitrates down to 80 and phosphates were between 2-3. Using the Salifert test kits. I added 2xTunze 6000 streams and the numbers have gone up higher again. I've been told that the problem is with my sandbed, and that is why I am changing out my sandbed and figured I would QT at the same time.
<If this gives you peace of mind... it may be worth it>
I don't over feed, I use and Aqua C ev180 Skimmer and it appears to be skimming very well and I use Chaeto in my fuge. I have 16 fish and I know it's more than I should have but those are what came with the tank. (originally there were 24 fish)
<Yikes! Stop wondering about where your nitrates are coming from <G>. Even without overfeeding... it is still overstocked. And the food that goes into these fishes, must come out. And the food that goes in already often has nitrate/phosphate in it>
Again, the original owner never had any problems according to his journal.
<Ahhh... OK.>
Marc Levenson has built me about a 45 gal sump/fuge which I will have installed when I change out the sand bed.
<Marc is a very good aquarist>
I'm hoping that having an increased water volume and a larger area for macro algae will also help out a bit. So if this was your tank would you still just QT the hippo tang and not the rest of the fish?
<The Ich issue is unrelated to the sand bed, of course... and putting all fish in QT will be more harm than good and still not eradicate your active Ich problem>
I want to do whatever needs to be done, but I don't want to go overboard with it if that is what you think I am doing. I'm just going by what many people have told me to do and it does get quite confusing since this is the first tank I have ever had. Thanks again, Cindy
<While its very good to always get a consensus, that only helps when you understand the science/reasons behind it. Otherwise you just get confused because you cannot discern the bad advice from the good info. My strong advice is for you to pick one local source of information that appears to be successful: like Marc (really savvy chap). And follow one school of thought until you get stabilized and gain a better understanding for what's going on. Best of luck, Anthony>

- Ich Problems -
Hi Crew,
This is an update to an ick problem I reported about 3 weeks ago. I have a 10 gallon with 2 PJ cardinals, a neon goby, a royal Gramma and a chalk bass. The tank is 20 months old and the last changes were in November when I added some mushrooms. The goby got some white spots so I used a product called Greenex (which is mostly malachite green and I bought when I did not even know what ick is) one drop per gallon. It says to medicate every other day 3 times and that it is safe for everything. 
So I ignored all of the Crews warnings that I read about medicating. On my second dose my chalk bass (who seemed completely healthy) was gasping in the morning and then died. As Bob F suggested, in response to my previous email, it was most likely due to the medication. 
<Oh, for certain... Greenex is a toxic brew.> 
My Nassarius snails disappeared for a week but they finally did show up. My problem is that I have no space for a hospital tank. A week later the next cycle began and the goby was full of spots so I took him out, put him in a pail with an airstone. I kept him there a week and used the Greenex. 
After a week I returned him to the tank and by then the Gramma was rubbing against the sand. A few days later the Gramma had a few spots and the goby was cleaning him. The goby had never done that before. By the evening the Gramma was full of spots and looked sick so I took him out and put him in the pail and kept him there for 5 days using Greenex. 
He moved very little and almost looked dead but I think it was due to the fact that I had no heater and he did not like the whole setup. Right now they are all back in the tank with no spots, eating fine. But the way this parasite cycles it is hard to tell where I stand. I can't leave my tank fallow because I have nowhere to keep the fish. So how to I get rid of the parasites in my tank? 
<I suggest you find a way to "make" room for a proper quarantine system... otherwise you're in a catch-22 situation to which there are no really good solutions. There are no treatments you can add to your tank which will either a) be safe to all occupants or b) actually work, so that leaves you with more standard means for dealing with this. Your bucket solution is a poor one as water quality still needs to be maintained, and in addition takes about two weeks of complete treatment to break the parasitic cycles. If you can fit another tank into your space, then you'll need to let your main tank run fallow for four to six weeks in order for the parasite's life cycle to break. Suggest you read [or if you've read already, re-read] our articles on parasitic disease and then make a decision on what you're going to do. I can appreciate your space being at a premium, but you've painted yourself into a corner... you either need to get paint on your feet or stay in the corner, if you know what I mean. Cheers, J -- > 

-Chasing Ich-
Hey crew,
<Hey Chase, Justin here.>
I need some help with my fish please.  Well first, the tank is 60 gallons.
Water Parameters are as follows:
Ammonia: 0
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 7
Temp: 79
SG: 1.024
<Thank you for these numbers. It helps us help you a lot better.>
Anyways I have been observing my fish, 1 royal Gramma, 2 ocellaris, and each one of them looks like it has ich! The male percula has it the worse, almost his whole body. The Gramma has it second and the female perc. hardly has any, maybe 2 or 3 spots. 
<I am sorry to hear that.>
I was wondering if I should transfer all my fish to Quarantine for a month and let the tank go fallow, while raising the temperature and decreasing the salinity to about 1.009; or get some biological cleaners? I'm guessing the former will be better. 
<You are correct, however a point of clarification you should raise the temperature of all tanks with ich in them to at least 82 but no more than 86, and lower the salinity of the q/t only. Please be careful and change the temperature and salinity slowly, 2 degrees per day and .002 salinity per every 48-72 hours.> 
If so, do I transfer my inverts (snails and crabs) to QT also? 
<No, inverts do not get ich as it is a fish only disease.> 
I really don't want to lose my fish and any help or advice would be much appreciated.
Thank you for any help.
<No problem, it is what we are here for. If the hyposalinity and raising the temperature do not work I would try formalin. Also do check the q/t water quality and do daily water changes to keep the water as clean as possible. Good luck.>
<Justin (Jager)>

ICH Problem In 24G Nano Cube
I have a 24G nano cube, 30 lbs live rock, 25 lbs live sand, 1 Lysmata shrimp, 1 peppermint shrimp, 1 serpent star, snails, hermit crabs, 1 clownfish, 1 coral beauty, 1 blue tang, and 1 mandarin green goby, no corals as of yet.
<... the Centropyge Angel, Tang... even (especially!) Mandarin can't live in this size volume>
All fish are relatively small 1 to 3 inches at the most. Three weeks ago, I immediately took out a domino damsel (used to cycle tank) after noticing white spots which I assumed to be ich.
<Too late... once noticed, already infesting your system>
Could the domino have spread the disease to other fish or to the tank since I took him out as soon as I noticed spots?
<Yes>
Could inverts such as shrimp, serpent stars, snails, and crabs carry the disease?
<Mmm, not carry per se... but can be vectors, physical carriers... as well as the water that they might be transported in...>
Could they have become infected? I thought I was on the clear, but on Sunday 2 weeks after I took the domino out, I introduced the coral beauty, and blue tang together to the main tank. All was well, and on Wednesday after coming home from work, I noticed the coral beauty, and blue tang were covered with ich. What happened? Did they catch the ich from my system as the crypt reached the theronts stage? 
<Bingo!>
or did they carry the ich already and showed signs soon after I introduced them in the tank?
<Doubtful... but yes, a remoter possibility>
Why don't the clownfish, and goby show any signs?
<Mmm, they're "stronger"... the goby is "slimier"... they will contract the ich in time, with debilitation, further cycles of the parasite>
I am so confused. I don't see signs of ich on the clownfish, therefore we can assume that the new fish carried the ich in, but then again, the clownfish doesn't come anywhere near the sandbed. What do you think?
<That our economy is in trouble, that there's too much government...>
I've read the section on crypt, but I am so confused regarding certain issues.
<Mmm, take all a "bit at a time"... your situation is not uncommon (unfortunately) and you obviously (from reading here) have a good mind... capacity to understand what has gone on, can go on... what your choices are. Of course, would be great to go back in time, dip/bath, quarantine new livestock...>
Here is my main question, does ich need to be transmitted to a fish, or can an "ICH FREE" fish develop ich on its own???
<Great question... Marine ich, "Cryptocaryoniasis" must need be transmitted to an otherwise non-infested system... put another way, there are specific "ich-free" systems, fishes... And for thoroughness sake, freshwater ich (Ichthyophthiriasis) is actually capable of "lying dormant" and surfacing given enough balance in its favor for expression>
I plan to place all the fish in a QT tank and treat them, should I move the serpent starfish also to the QT tank, or any other inverts as well? Do you have any further advise? Much appreciated.....
<To keep reading... no to moving your invertebrates... Bob Fenner> 

First Time Ich
Hi,
<Hello there>
I have a 55 gal. saltwater tank that has been cycled for 1 month. (Took 6 wks). I have not had any problems at all with 3 damsels, 1 clown, 1 royal Gramma. I just added a Lemonpeel angel 36 hrs ago. All seemed well until this morning I saw what I would have guessed is ich on the edge of its fins and some on his body although I've never seen it.
<No quarantine... not even a preventative dip/bath? You'll learn>
He seems happy, eating etc. I thought it was awful fast for it to happen since it seems to have happened OVERNIGHT! So about a half hour later I didn't see the spots anymore! Is it possible they have already fallen off? Or is that not how the parasite works?
<Bingo to the last... it's now cycling off the fish... producing many more...>
Maybe it isn't ich. I'm trying to act fast so I can catch it quickly if I can! 
Cathy
<There is a possibility that the spots "were/are nothing"... Far more likely this is Cryptocaryon... Please take the long read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm - scroll down to "Marine Ich..." and read on. Bob Fenner>

Ick in the wild
Hello
I'm just curious, what happens to fish in the wild when they get ick? Do they even get it?
<Yes... devastating locally... the strong survive... there is evidence of acquired immunity... the disease wanes/waxes... from dilution, loss of "habitat" (hosts)>
I don't think they have a copper solution handy for themselves, so do they rely on biological cleaners?
<Ah, yes... these likely help>
I have had Ick three times now. My tang seems to be the most resistant and has no spots. But my angel, goby and clown all have it. I've always quarantined my fish and there have been no major stress factors. They are living with it right now, the cleaner shrimp is always working on the angel, is it possible for fish to live with ick, if there's enough biological cleaner available?
<Yes... there are many cases of such "balances". Bob Fenner>
Thanks a lot.
<Thank you for your thoughtful question> 

Ick in the Wild (3/18/05) Steve's Take (Or, Someone Forgot to Take Out the Trash!)
Hello 
<Hello. Steve Allen here tonight.>
I'm just curious, what happens to fish in the wild when they get ick? Do they even get it? I don't think they have a copper solution handy for themselves, so do they rely on biological cleaners? 
<Sure they get it, and cleaners are an important defense. There are a few key differences between nature and captivity that I can think of off the top of my head that are very relevant. 
First, fishes in the wild may have stronger immunities due to nutritional or stress issues in tanks. 
Second, there are most likely macroscopic and microscopic ick predators in the wild that we don't get in our tanks. 
Third, the aquarium is a small closed system that puts the close to the parasites residing in the substrate and amplifies their numbers. The fish can't get away. There are certainly other factors involved as well. Do study the life cycle of the parasite. There are excellent articles on ich in the archives of Advanced Aquarist online and www.reefkeeping.org.> 
I have had Ick three times now. 
<Does it hurt or itch? ... Sorry, could not resist. I'm sure it's your fish, not you, that have had ick.> 
My tang seems to be the most resistant and has no spots. 
<Interesting, Tangs are usually the most affected fish. They have a reputation as "ick magnets."> 
But my angel, goby and clown all have it. I've always quarantined my fish and there have been no major stress factors. <Hard to say where it came from. I assume that you are making the diagnosis based on comparison to pictures of fish with ick.> 
They are living with it right now, the cleaner shrimp is always working on the angel, is it possible for fish to live with ick, if there's enough biological cleaner available? 
<Some folks theorize that most tanks have some ick lurking, but others dispute this. I'd suggest you read the referenced articles and search WWM to get some ideas for how to rid your tank of this pest for good.> 
Thanks a lot. 
<Hope this helps.> 

Whitespot, Inverts, Filters..
Hello.
Please forgive what I'm sure are ignorant questions, but I am new to all this.
<Okay>
I have had a 10-gallon saltwater tank running successfully for a month or so, with three damsels and a pound-or-so piece of live rock.
<... this tank is too small for even one damsel... and they are, to put it mildly, "feisty" with one another, other fishes...>
Recently (within the last week or ten days) I had an pervasive outbreak of brown algae, and added two small Turbo snails and a chestnut cowry. I have also become more mindful of how much I have been feeding, and adjusted accordingly.
<All right>
Within the last 24 hours I noticed incipient whitespot on my three-spot damsel. I am mystified as to where it came from, since I was under the impression that inverts did not carry it. Since the damsels have been together for a month, I would think that I would have seen an outbreak before now if they had had it when I got them. Could it indeed have come in with the snails?
<Not likely, but yes, a possibility>
This evening I raised the temp to 78 F, removed the inverts and placed them in a separate one-quart container of new saltwater [dechlorinated tap water, and Instant Ocean]. Lacking another tank and heater, I placed the container in a warm place, where the average temperature is about 75 F, and perforated the container lid to allow oxygen exchange. I removed the filter bag from the Whisper filter, and submerged it in a separate container of the same batch of new water. I then treated with formalin. I intend to keep the inverts out for another two days, and treat again. After another day or so, I would do a 50% water change, and then reintroduce the snails after another interval.
Therefore, my questions are:
1. Does this regimen make sense? Should I do anything else?
<Your reasoning is sound... this is one treatment protocol that can work...>
2. In attempting to save the filter element, I am presuming that it is where the nice little bacteria live. Is it also beset with little parasites, which will come back to bite my fishes' backsides? Do I need to throw it away, and replace it with a new one?
<Mmm, the bacteria of all sorts will be killed by the formalin...>
3. If I am mistaken, and snails can and do carry whitespot, is there any way to treat them?
<By allowing the absence of fish hosts... for a month, six weeks...>
Frankly, the three-spot is a bullying little creep, and his demise would not break my heart. His companions, a yellowtail and a convict, are a different story altogether.
Thanks for your patience.
Rick Walters
<I do wish we could "go back in time" and I could advise you re tank size and stocking matters... The formalin? I would have used copper... Please do read... let's see... starting here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ - using the Google search tool... re "crypt", "domino damsels", "formalin"... and so on. Bob Fenner>

Help with Ick
Hi, I have a 110 gal. salt tank with a coral beauty, yellow tang, Oriental Sweetlips, 3 clownfish, and 2 Anthias. I also have several inverts; starfish, crabs, shrimp, lobster...
<Really? A small reef species?>
...and snails (and about 70 lbs. of live rock). My power compact lights are on a timer so the bright ones go off first at night, and just the blue ones stay on for an extra hour. It's during this time that I noticed some of my fish have what appears to be Ick all over them. They don't scratch themselves, nor can I see these white dots on them with all of the lights on. This is Ick, isn't it????
<Possibly>
Anyway, I went to a well-respected local fish-only store that I buy all of my stuff from and they gave me a product called "Malachite Green". They told me that its what they use in their reef tanks in the store if there is an outbreak of Ick.
<... am very doubtful of this... I worked, owned retail stores, and was a laborer in marine wholesale facilities... We never used Malachite for this purpose (just in dip procedures with fishes)... Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/malachitegreen.htm.  A recent piece I wrote on MG... most companies use lowered spg, prophylactic pH-adjusted freshwater dips, copper products...>
The companies website states this product is "reef safe" as well. 
<Not a fact... as you will soon learn>
I've read your articles warning that this is deadly to inverts, yet this well- respected store owner and the company's website both say it's fine. 
<So? I don't doubt you, or the statements made... The latter are in error however. Try it out and see>
I also respect you opinion as well, and yet I'm getting conflicting points of view.
<Think for yourself>
I also read on your site that I should remove all of the fish to a separate quarantine tank for a month, and "fresh-water" dips, etc. I really don't want to do that, it would take me hours to remove all of the live rock I have and remove these fish, and then buy another tank to quarantine them. 
<Can leave the LR... where it is... but do need separate treatment tank... if this is what you intend to do... Have you considered trying cleaner organisms instead? Just shooting for a semi-infested system?>
I really need a solution, like this Malachite Green stuff, that I could just add to the tank. But I'm scared I could kill any of my tanks inhabitants.  What should I do???? Is this Malachite Green the best solution, or is there another product you can recommend that is reef safe and will get rid of this problem. Thanks for you time. Jeff.
<... there is NO reef-safe AND effective parasiticide... Think about this... HOW would a chemical "find", kill some protozoan (in this case) and not other microbial life? Read my friend... here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm  from the top down... I/we have nothing to sell you...
Bob Fenner> 

Ich Rears Its Ugly Head!
Hi:
<Hi there! Scott F. with you today!>
Thanks for the obvious hard work and effort in maintaining a site that is helpful and informative.
<Much appreciated! We have some wonderful people here who really do a great job!>
I have lost all but 1 of my fish to ich recently and am now realizing the importance of a QT.
<A painful lesson that we all learned the hard way at some point...I'm glad that you gained some insight, though!>
I am about to add a UV sterilizer to the display tank and hope that helps some of the problem. Here's my question, when I see a fish in the display tank showing signs of getting ill (scratching etc) I can never catch them to QT them. They just hide behind the vast array of LR in my system and never allow me to grab them up. I can only catch them when they're close to dying and by that time it's too late.
<One of the difficult problems in treating fishes-catching them in established systems. It's a tough one to overcome. Usually, removing rockwork, etc. and catching the fishes is usually the best way to accomplish this task. I've found that once people experience the trauma and aggravation of breaking down their tank to get a sick fish out, they begin to re-think their position on quarantine! I am a strong proponent of breaking down the decor and removing the fishes to a separate tank for treatment. Meanwhile, you let the display tank run "fallow", without fishes, for about a month. The causative protozoa will generally perish without a host, unable to complete their life cycle. It's not a 100% guarantee of a cure (nothing is, short of "nuking" the tank with copper or breaking it down entirely and starting over), but it is usually highly successful at reducing the impact of the disease causing protozoa to a level that your re-introduced fishes should be able to resist. It's not a fun process, but it has worked very well for myself and thousands of other hobbyists, carries no risk of "collateral damage" to beneficial inverts and other life forms in the display, and doesn't require anything more exotic than a dose of patience>
I am fairly new to marine aquaria, as I have had many many freshwater tanks over the years. I have never experienced this much fish loss in such a short period. Medicines have done nothing. Haven't tried copper because of tall the LR and inverts.
<Good restraint. It would be disaster to treat in the display tank with copper, IMO>
QT tank is up next and hopefully this will help. Should I add a skimmer to the QT tank or would a strong bio-wheel suffice?
<A skimmer is really optional in a quarantine tank, especially with medication in use. I'd rely on frequent (like even daily, if necessary) small water changes and judicious feeding to do the job.> 
Thanks ...
Raymond DeMartini Jr.
<You're quite welcome, Raymond! Hang in there, and you'll beat this thing! Read more about these approaches in the numerous articles that we have on the topic right here on the WWM site! Regards, Scott F.> 

Marine Roulette Anyone?
We all know how awesome the WWM crew is - and so do they - that's why we all come back here!
<They told me there was free beer! You mean there isn't? I'm outta here!>
Enough said. What's odd is that so many of us have learned what we know of the marine hobby right here and by reading the works of WWM authors - yet so many of us insist on learning the hard way....
<Heeeeee! Human nature... my fave species>
For example, I have an overstocked 75 gal mixed reef and have never quarantined so much as one thing... The system has been up and running for over a year and I've watched the dreaded white spot signs of Ich teeter-totter between the fish's favor and the parasites favor. Had never had a serious enough outbreak to warrant pulling all of the fish out for treatment or letting the tank go fallow.... 'til now....
<Doh!>
Hadn't seen any signs of Ich for close to six-months, so in my infinite wisdom what do I do? Add a "King-O-Ich" Hippo
Tang. Well the pendulum quickly favored the Ich and I end up with a major breakout. Fortunately I had a 55 gal. sitting around looking thirsty so I tear the rockwork apart and catch the fish.... Yellow Tang, Hippo Tang, Royal Gramma, Two Ocellaris Clowns, Copperband Butterfly, and a Flame Hawkfish. They're being treated with Cupramine and for all those who've had trouble measuring this, the Seachem kit seems to keep a good handle on the copper levels. 
<They do have good products> 
Did I keep a sponge in the 75gal display to use in case of an treatment emergency such as this? Of course not....
<Doh times two~!>
So I'm changing significant amounts of water every other day to keep ammonia as low as possible. Livestock seem to be progressively doing better - but I'm concerned about the Copperband. He hasn't hardly eaten any provided foods since we got him. He seemed to pick off the rocks rather than touch anything we fed... Problem is - their obviously aren't any rocks in the hospital tank - and I've yet to see him eat a thing.
<Try a small "bivalve"... clam, cockle... opened up... these are almost irresistible to Chelmons... even stressed out ones in tiny volumes and copper>
It's been 8 days since he was admitted to the hospital. Before this Ich outbreak began, we had already been planning on a move into a 180, which is about another month out. We had purchased 40 lbs of additional live rock, which is curing in Rubbermaids. My question is this. ( I know - Finally) The new live rock in quarantine will be cured about the time that the copper treatment comes to an end, and hopefully the hospital tank has completely cycled. Yet I will still be weeks from moving into the 180 - so the fish will remain in the hospital tank until the move. The only thing in the hospital is PVC material (nothing Calcareous).
<Natch... as it would absorb the copper...>
For the betterment of the environment, can I add cycled live rock to the cycled hospital once the copper is removed with water changes, PolyFilter, and carbon?
<Yes>
Or should I not add anything copper sensitive since the tank has been exposed to copper.
<A small amount of precipitated copper is not a big deal>
I had read somewhere (don't know the validity) that the tank seals will act like a sponge and leach copper even after it is testing zero and believed removed. 
<Very, very little... in most cases/scenarios>
Obviously, the best thing would be to not get into this situation, but.... In light of the fact I am, what would be the best way to proceed? And yes, lesson learned... From now on apply the generous sharings of knowledge from those in the know.... Thanks, Brad.
<Better to move the Copperband elsewhere after two weeks treatment... with larger, more stable setting... try Mysids (live if you can get them)... soaked in Selcon or equivalent... Do pH adjusted freshwater dip the fishes enroute... Bob Fenner> 

Marine Roulette Anyone? avec James' Response
We all know how awesome the WWM crew is - and so do they - that's why we all come back here! Enough said. What's odd is that so many of us have learned what we know of the marine hobby right here and by reading the works of WWM authors - yet so many of us insist on learning the hard way.... For example, I have an overstocked 75 gal mixed reef and have never quarantined so much as one thing.  The system has been up and running for over a year and I've watched the dreaded white spot signs of Ich teeter-totter between the fish's favor and the parasites favor. Had never had a serious enough outbreak to warrant pulling all of the fish out for treatment or letting the tank go fallow 'til now. 
Hadn't seen any signs of Ich for close to six-months, so in my infinite wisdom what do I do? Add a "King-O-Ich" Hippo Tang. Well the pendulum quickly favored the Ich and I end up with a major breakout. Fortunately I had a 55gal sitting around looking thirsty so I tear the rockwork apart and catch the fish.... Yellow Tang, Hippo Tang, Royal Gramma, Two Ocellaris Clowns, Copperband Butterfly, and a Flame Hawkfish. 
They're being treated with Cupramine and for all those who've had trouble measuring this, the Seachem kit seems to keep a good handle on the copper levels. Did I keep a sponge in the 75gal display to use in case of an treatment emergency such as this? Of course not. So I'm changing significant amounts of water every other day to keep ammonia as low as possible. 
Livestock seem to be progressively doing better - but I'm concerned about the Copperband. He hasn't hardly eaten any provided foods since we got him. He seemed to pick off the rocks rather than touch anything we fed. Problem is - there obviously aren't any rocks in the hospital tank - and I've yet to see him eat a thing. It's been 8 days since he was admitted to the hospital. 
Before this Ich outbreak began, we had already been planning on a move into a 180, which is about another month out. We had purchased 40 lbs of additional live rock, which is curing in Rubbermaids. My question is this. ( I know - Finally) The new live rock in quarantine will be cured about the time that the copper treatment comes to an end, and hopefully the hospital tank has completely cycled. Yet I will still be weeks from moving into the 180 - so the fish will remain in the hospital tank until the move. The only thing in the hospital is PVC material (nothing Calcareous). 
For the betterment of the environment, can I add cycled live rock to the cycled hospital once the copper is removed with water changes, PolyFilter, and carbon? Or should I not add anything copper sensitive since the tank has been exposed to copper. 
I had read somewhere (don't know the validity) that the tank seals will act like a sponge and leach copper even after it is testing zero and believed removed. Obviously, the best thing would be to not get into this situation, but.... In light of the fact I am, what would be the best way to proceed? And yes, lesson learned... From now on apply the generous sharings of knowledge from those in the know....
<I don't think you would have a problem putting the live rock in the QT once you filter out the copper. I would try one thing for your Copperband. Get some Cyclop-eeze in the pump bottle. I'm thinking that will trigger him into eating. It's great stuff. Good for corals....my Percs love it and really colored up nice. James (Salty Dog)>

Ich and Nitrate Problems
Hi guys,
<Hello>
Just a few questions I was hoping you could help me out with. First the background: I have a 42 gallon hex, Magnum 350 canister filter, and AquaC Remora skimmer.
<Good setup for small fish>
There are approx 30 pounds of live rock, and two damsels, two Niger triggers, one maroon clown, one porcupine puffer and a snowflake eel. The tank is kind of small, but they will be moving into my 75 in a couple months.
<Wow you're not kidding, those fish wont survive in a 75 for long, much less a 42 that has very little surface area on the bottom, these fish need a lot of floor space, not a lot of depth per se. I hope you have room to store a set of 12-15" Nigers, a 18" porcupine puffer, 6" maroon clown, and a 2 foot eel. (Conservative size estimates in aquariums, they get bigger in the wild.) You need a 180 gallon at the bare minimum and to keep all these fish, look into a 240 or 300.> 
Right now, everybody's in the QT tank to get rid of some ich that was most noticeable on the puffer, but everybody else was rubbing on the rocks, so I put them in there also, I'm treating with formalin, and the spots on the puffer have gone away, but I'm hoping to get rid of it in the main tank before putting everyone back in.
<Well I hope you have a very large Q/T, also formalin is very dangerous on puffers in normal dosages, I use half dosages. and keeping all your fish in one q/t will be trouble as some are more or less resistant to the ich and to formalin.>
The second problem is high nitrates (~80) I've been doing water changes, but not getting anywhere.
<Well you have at least 4 very large at adult size, VERY messy eaters that can totally crash a marine tank that small. I am surprised it hasn't already...> 
I'm wondering if the canister is helping or hurting me.
< You need all the filtration you can get, though do clean the filter pads in old tank water to clean off the waste.>
I'm considering just making a sump from a Rubbermaid container and eliminating the canister if that would help.
<No, the problem lies within your incredible overstocking of a tank. You are trying to fit the equivalent of Mount Everest into a tank that couldn't handle these fish even by themselves for very long, maybe a month or so more. Please research fish BEFORE you buy them or you will be forcing these fish to endure being sick and in poor water for their shortened lives. get a big tank and a lot better filtration NOW or take them back. puffers, triggers and most other fish are way too big for this tank, even the eel is going to get too big for that 42>
Any further tips are greatly appreciated.
<keep the remora skimmer as it is a very good one, but these fish get a total of around 60 inches of fish in a tank that isn't even enough water to take care of any of them for longer than a month or so. these fish generally grow fast and put out loads of waste, more than any other fish, and your system cant handle that.>
Thanks in advance and keep up the good work.
Dane
<Please look into trading these fish back or getting a very large tank 180+ for them ASAP to really care for them well, otherwise they will not make it long.>
<Justin (Jager)>

Ick and Nitrates Problems 3/8/05
Hi guys, Just a few questions I was hoping you could help me out with. First the background: I have a 42 gallon hex, Magnum 350 canister filter, and AquaC Remora skimmer. There are approx 30 pounds of live rock, and two damsels, two Niger triggers, one maroon clown, one porcupine puffer and a snowflake eel. The tank is kind of small, but they will be moving into my 75 in a couple months. 
<Yowza! This is very crowded, and will be even in your 75, especially with all of those big eaters.>
Right now, everybody's in the QT tank to get rid of some ich that was most noticeable on the puffer, but everybody else was rubbing on the rocks, so I put them in there also. I'm treating with formalin, and the spots on the puffer have gone away, but I'm hoping to get rid of it in the main tank before putting everyone back in. 
<The key is to keep the display fishless for 30 days to ensure that all of the parasites are dead. See more info on WWM and here: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.htm>
The second problem is high nitrates (~80) I've been doing water changes, but not getting anywhere. I'm wondering if the canister is helping or hurting me, I'm considering just making a sump from a Rubbermaid container and eliminating the canister if that would help. Any further tips are greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance and keep up the good work. Dane 
<Canister filters will contribute to nitrate accumulation, especially if they are not cleaned at least weekly. However, the root of your problem is the high bio-load. I would eliminate the canister, but you must also address the bioload. Best Regards. AdamC.>

- Is this Ich? -
Hi crew,
<Hi.>
I have a neon goby and a week ago it had three white specs that looked like salt crystals. I have not added anything to the tank in over 3 months other than water and food. The last time I had ick was over a year ago and the fish died. I have a cardinal, a Gramma, a chalk bass and a clown goby and none have any spots. By the way, the goby cleans the bass. 
<Neat.> 
Right now the white spots are gone but the skin is not smooth where the spots used to be. During all this time the goby has acted normal, no rubbing and eating well. Since this is a 10 gallon you would consider this overstocked but of all the fish the neon is the most carefree so I do not think he is stressed. In any case it would seem to indicate that ick can be dormant for long periods. 
<Yes... can exist in background levels... as long as it has a fish or two to live on during those parts of its life cycle.> 
Or do you think it is something else? 
<Is most likely ich... I will say this, it's nearly impossible to have a parasite-free system. Very often, when fish are in good health and at low stress levels, they can often coexist with these parasite without being overwhelmed. I do have a concern that with such a small tank, you run the risk of suddenly tipping that fine balance... do keep up on water quality and try to save for a larger system.>
You guys do a great job so I am not sure why you bother to respond to abusive emails. The guy definitely has a problem. 
<Happens.> 
To bad he is not a fish then maybe you could help him. 
<He may be beyond help for the time being. Cheers, J -- >