Sharks / crypt/ Brooklynella copper   1/1/08
Hi
<Marc>
I have a 19,000 gallon aquarium with a wide range of Atlantic fish including 2 sharks. The sharks are a 42" blacknose & a 36" Bonnethead.. We had crypt show up 1st and have been treating with hyposalinity at 15 ppt and formalin 1ml per 10 gal. (1900 ml), every other day.
<Yikes.... dangerous>
I am not clear on copper with the sharks.
<Is generally a poor idea. In my early years in the "scientific" part of the trade I used to necropsy, diagnose shark et al. losses at public institutions. Copper compounds are contraindicated for a few reasons with cartilaginous fishes...>
I even was worried about the hyposalinity, but other than a suppressed appetite, they are fine.
<Yes... most all Elasmobranchs do fine with lowered salinity for a time>
It has been 3 weeks and the crypt is still there (all verified by scrape and microscope). Also now fish have Brooklynella and lots. I have never seen formalin so ineffective.
<Mmm... I DO wish you had another facility... to give a more concentrated bath... move the fish stock to...>
Water parameters are NH3=0 NO2=.15 Sal = 15ppt ph = 7.9 KH = 140 temp = 79 f. I have even upped the dose to 2 liters with no effect. My main question is : Can I use non-chelated copper (Cupramine) on the sharks?
<I would NOT>
How long can they stand it? Will copper kill Brooklynella?
<No... not usually... See WWM, articles and books by myself, others>
Will Chloroquine kill crypt or brook? Do you have any other suggestions ?
Marc C
<The best possible solution is with quinines here... Do you have a copy of Ed Noga's work on Fish Disease? Please read: http://wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm
Bob Fenner>

Medicine reactions, Quinones, sharks...   7/28/07
Another opinion needed! After speaking with Natl. Fish Pharm, I purchase some quinine sulfate to kill Ick in my tank in the presence of a shark.
Though it isn't recommended, we are treating the main system. My snails were removed before treatment and it does not affect the hermit crabs at all. The treatment as prescribed was to add the quinine (done Tuesday) and after five days perform a 25% water change and run carbon to remove the quinine, then after a day repeat the treatment.
<Okay>
No fish appears to be bothered by the treatment, and they are no longer scratching on rocks at all, so I am sure it is working. My question is about the shark. He still looks really healthy. On Tuesday he ate quite a bit of shark formula w/ Zoe, right after the quinine was added. Day two he came out at feeding time and ate a few pieces. Day three (Thursday) he didn't really show any interest in the food. I've noticed he seems a bit more lethargic and doesn't seem to have an appetite. I'm tempted to go home today and do the partial water change and run carbon to remove the quinine.
Tomorrow is day 4 of the treatment though, and I'm wondering if I should try and make it the five days. Do you think that this quinine is bothering the shark?
<Not likely>
And, have you any experience with the quinine and ick?
<Ah, yes>
What would you think is the minimum effective treatment duration?
<Two weeks>
I'm in a catch 22 here. The sole reason for the quinine is to effectively whack the ick without hurting the shark. I'd like your opinion on it. There is very little in FAQ about quinine & sharks but one or two notes.
Thanks a million.
Thomas Roach
<Time to purchase or borrow some books Tom... Look for the name Ed Noga. RMF>

Ich - Frustrated, Shark Treatment 7/18/07
Bob (or others),
<Hello, others here today, Chris specifically.>
Yes, probably more ignorant questions, but I assure you I'm trying to do this right using all of this info. <No worries.> I do keep reading all of the FAQ, I don't know if I'm getting too much info and it doesn't mesh together, but The summary is as in past, I had the 80gal with a baby banded cat shark, small dogface, yellow tang, and passer angel. You helped with info on the swap, as we purchased the 200 gallon, and set it up. I have been keeping fish since I was 5, transitioning to marine fish say 7 years ago.
In the freshwater setups, I had dealt with ich rather easily, even as a kid.
For about 3 years before purchasing my angel and tang, I had just a puffer and a red emperor snapper in the system (I do not recommend the purchase of this fish; though they are darling as youngsters and offered in every Petco, they get huge and are very territorial). <Agreed> After donating the snapper to a high school for display in a huge tank, <nice> I set it up for the fish stated above. You know the rest, as my emails to WetWebMedia resulted in someone who thought they knew plenty realizing he didn't and the investment in the large 200 gallon tank.
<A constant learning process for sure.>
Anyway, things were great in the new tank. The shark loves the room and the new, soft substrate, and the fish have been healthy and happy. I purchased a powder brown tang as a final addition to the system. I purchased it because it's different body shape and color pattern it does not have any conflicts with the Yellow tang. I do not have the resources for a specific quarantine tank, however I have a 20 gallon reef tank set up with no fish, just live rock, fan worms, and a cleaner shrimp in it, so I placed the tang in that initially for observation.
<Ok for QT, but not much use if you have to treat it for anything. Might be worth picking up a large Rubbermaid container for a hospital tank.>
Now, as I understand it, Crypt has a life cycle of 3 to 7 days.
<Hmmm, maybe this is where you are confused. 3 to 7 days is correct for freshwater ich, Ichthyophthirius multifilius, however this is not what you are dealing with. In the marine environment you are dealing with Cryptocaryon irritans, which while similar to Ichthyophthirius multifilius is unrelated and has a longer lifecycle, closer to 2 weeks.>
It is identified by white, crystal like dots on fish. Having seen it many times, it is easily recognizable, is that a safe statement?
<Most likely, although there are a few diseases that look somewhat similar, although tend to be much more virulent and kill much quicker, mostly velvet, Amyloodinium ocellatum.>
Here's where I get confused and am left scratching my head.
The Powder Brown tang, for two weeks, showed no ich on it. At which time I then transferred it to the big system. <Just wasn't long enough, need 4 to six weeks for marine fish due to the longer lifecycle of marine ich.>
The 200 gallon, for three weeks, had no issues at all. The yellow tang, which I consider to be more prone to ich, has never had it. The conditions in the tank are salinity at 1.022, 0 ppm of ammonia and nitrites, 10 ppm or less of nitrates, PH of 8.2. My feeding consists of Angel Formula for the Passer and tangs, with either Marine Cuisine or Emerald Entrée, Frozen Krill and cocktail shrimp for the puffer. Each feeding is soaked in garlic and/or Zoe. The shark receives Shark Formula soaked in Zoe.
<Good>
Upon adding the Powder Brown, after three days he is covered in Ich. My questions, and I have read FAQ, I promise, are these:
The system has ich still. <Was likely clean, but reinfected with the new tang.> Why does it only affect the Powder Brown? <Most likely they all are infected with the parasite, however the brown is most susceptible and has had the longest exposure.> I sit
for hours sometimes observing these fish. There is no indication whatsoever of ich on any other fish at all. <It infects the gills first, not visible on the body yet.>
How can it so greatly affect one fish?
<Genetic predisposition, lower natural immune response, higher stress level due to new home, longer exposure to the parasite.>
In the past, you have said the other fish don't YET have it. But, for it to so greatly affect this one fish and not be present on any other? I am baffled by this.
<Is present, just not displaying symptoms you can see, if you were to take a gill scraping (not recommended on a life fish by the way) likely you would find Cryptocaryon irritans.>
After reading more FAQ, specifically about the unproven effects of garlic, my only possible explanation is suspect. I was thinking that once the fish consume enough garlic soaked food so that they have garlic in their system, the ich cannot tolerate it and will not attach. In your opinion is there any validity to that thought at all? <Not to me, at best I see garlic as a appetite stimulant, which helps encourage sick fish to eat, but I'm not even %100 behind this.>
To have a yellow tang swimming side by side with a powder brown, being in the system longer and never contract crypt, I don't have an answer for. <I know I'm repeating myself, but likely is infected just not symptomatic.> There is a cleaner wrasse in the system, to which you scolded me after the purchase of. He is still the same one, naturally once he was there I would keep him, though I have promised never to purchase another. <Good> He does seem to have some effect, but obviously he is not the solution.
<This is not their natural diet, Ich is too small to sustain this fish. My guess is that it is providing some wound management from where the ich has caused irritation, maybe removing the parasite incidentally here, but that is just my unscientific guess.>
FAQ mentions the use of quinine hydrochloride as a possible treatment to use in the presence of a shark. If this is a viable option, is there a particular brand of medicine that contains it, or is there a more common name for it? <Yes it is a viable treatment but can be tough to find, but I have found it through on-line vendors before, but was quite difficult. It was labeled as Quinine, no common name that I have seen.>
Yesterday I went to the largest specialized LFS in Houston, and looked at ingredients on all of there ick medications, and could not find it. The associates were unfamiliar with it. They of course carry copper, and various bogus treatments. I have used RXP, which I have no faith in. Finally, I have used formalin (in the guise of Quick Cure) with success in the past, however some sites say that sharks will not tolerate it, others say use in a weakened form, still others say it is a remedy that can be used with sharks. None of it gives me any confidence to use with the shark present. Do you have any thoughts on formalin and sharks? <Would definitely not be my first choice, Quinine is a much better product for this application.>
Every thing you have told me has been right on the money. <In that case let me tell you why I should rule the world.> I cannot think of a better source for accurate advice. You do a world of good for many of us.
<Thanks, but take our advice with a grain of salt as well, you will find that even among the crew there are many different opinions on a wide range of topics. Best bet is to read and read some more, and then form your own opinions based on evidence you understand.>
One final suggestion; if you accept donations for your site, you might mention it in your daily FAQ, just as a reminder. I think many of us would be glad to help out.
<Think we have a PayPal beggars box somewhere on the main page, I don't think Bob is interested in making it any more intrusive. But he can comment more specifically on that.><<We had some very good input, questioning re this aspect just today... Am not that interested as Chris states... There are troubles when there is too little money, and too much. RMF>>
Sincerely,
Thomas Roach
<Keep at it, and really think strongly of getting a proper bare bottom QT set up, does not need to be a permanent setup.>
<Chris>

Re: Ich - Frustrated, Shark Treatment 7/18/07
I have been on the 'net searching for someone that sells quinine for over an hour... sighs... Any ideas?
Thanks...
Thomas Roach
<I would try here, http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/ . Give them a call if you can, they are very knowledgeable and friendly.>

Re: Ich - Frustrated, Shark Treatment 7/18/07
I had to share this with you guys. I don't know if you care for specific references to suppliers, but this may help someone, it certainly did me. In my search for quinine for treating the ick in the below situation, I found this: http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/
<Yes, my experience with them has been quite positive.>
Calling them, I spoke with Dr. Brian (sp) who answered the phone. He does research there, and was able to provide me with quinine sulfate. He was very informative and very interested in answering my questions. Apparently his father founded this company after being fed up with bogus medicines and treatments and their misapplication. <Need more of that in the hobby.>
He told me about different treatments and why not to use each one, explaining how each worked and the results to be expected. Specifically he told me that quinine sulfate would work better than the hydrochloride and that it was an excellent treatment with sharks present. It is very effective on crypt. He even suggested an alternate treatment program as to save me some money, so he was not interested in selling me something I did not need.
<Nice>
If you want to post this for your readers or look at the site yourselves please do so. <Will do so.> It is nice to find, along with WetWebMedia, and informative source that is so willing to help the average hobbyist. I hope this helps another reader some other time.
<I'm sure it will>
Sincerely,
Thomas Roach
<Thanks for sharing, always good to here people getting real help, retailers going beyond the minimum to help their customers.>
<Chris>

Re: Ick update 9/6/07
When I said I feed him by hand, he is a Brown banded bamboo shark, or banded cat shark, I've seen it called both.
<Me too>
He was about 6" when hatched, now he's closer to 9". I don't feed him by hand all the time...
<But... the point of what is unusual... It is not to have this animal feed from a hand, nor at night>
I did initially, when I wanted to see if he was definitely eating, so I would make sure that small cubes of the shark formula soaked in either Zoë or Zoecon was placed right by his nose. Up until this quinine treatment he would eat them well.
You've seen the frozen cubes, I'm sure. I would cut one in half, then cut the half into 4 to 6 pieces, soak them in the Zoë, then drop them down to wherever he was, and he would eat them all. I never had to hand feed him after he started eating. I've been doing it as of late because he hasn't been taking the food. Now, I'll put one piece at a time in front of him, or let him take it out of my fingers (No, we won't do this as he grows, trust me), and he'll mouth it, spit it out, mouth it, spit it out, eventually leaving it. It's almost like he's sucking the Zoë out of it, leaving the rest. I bought more ghost shrimps yesterday, and watched him eat some of those. I was really worried more about a mouth injury or infection, not sure now after seeing him munch on some ghost shrimp. I'll purchase some silversides today, and soak them in the vitamins as well, and see how that goes.
<Better to insert parts of the tablets of Mazuri (.com) inside such foodstuffs>
Water quality is 0 ppm both Ammonia & Nitrites, Nitrates less than 10 ppm, PH is at 8.2, and the salinity is a 1.024, 200 gallon 72" tank. I have the FX5 for bio and water movement, of which the pads are cleaned weekly now, I added a wet/dry because that is good for a high bio load (it has a filter pad before the bio media which I clean weekly), I run carbon in a magnum hang on periodically, and I have a 200 gallon rated protein skimmer that produces nasty stuff.
As for the little tank, I'm going to put my live rock and snails in a cooler and drain the tank and replace the substrate with sand, that way I can pick the tank up and manipulate it to get the firefish out, I can put him in my QT tank and treat it with copper, then just let him reside in there for a month while the 20 gallon goes fallow. Then I can move the snails.
Thomas Roach
<Well, the lack of feeding could be from a few influences... the Quinine exposure... metabolites of many sorts... I would add a few pounds of activated carbon to your filter flow path... in bag/s, and be patient. Bob Fenner>

Re: Saltwater questions: Epaulette and Snowflake Eel   2/24/06
Hey Bob,
<Joe>
Thanks for the reply. Your crew have made my transition from fresh to saltwater so much easier. I have a couple more questions to ask you. First
of all, how long after a tank has cycled (or reached a zero ammonia and nitrite level) should a water change take place?
<... posted on WWM... a few weeks>
I would also like to know if I can feed my fish some seaweed flakes which I bought from an Asian grocery store...except they contain a little bit of
corn oil and sunflower oil. Will this pose a problem?
<Likely not. But I would take care to not allow a "scum" to form, stay on your water surface>
These were the most plain flakes I could find. Last of all, an owner of one of my local fish stores commented to me that getting 'white spot' was an inevitable part of keeping saltwater fish despite any quarantine measures which are used.
<Incorrect. There are SPF (Specific Pathogen Free) marine systems, entire culture facilities. If Cryptocaryon is disallowed, it does not magically appear...>
He said that it would happen sooner or later. Is there any truth or merit in his statement?
<Not unless s/he means that marine whitespot can "hide" undetected if not excluded, no>
I am determined to prove him wrong. ;) How does the amount of live rock in one's tank affect or keep at bay the symptoms or severity of White Spot??
<Good question... I suspect there is some negative correlation here. The more LR, the less prevalent the infestations>
Once again, thanks in advance. Regards,
Joe
<Thank you. Bob Fenner>

Ick on my shark - How to treat
First, thank you for taking the time to help us hobbyist.  The wealth of information you guys share is amazing.
My situation: I have a 110 gal FOWLR (and fine grain sand) DAS tank/filter/skimmer housing a 4" dogface puffer, 5" antennata lionfish, and a 7" banded cat shark (I know this tank is too small to keep the shark for long,
<Do monitor nitrogenous waste content as well (ammonia...) as the Dutch Aquarium Systems filters are puny, inconstant>
plans for the near future include a custom 12' 350-400 gallon tank built into my living room wall). My last addition to the tank was a 4" Porkfish.
My problem:
Everything went fine for about 2 months then all of the sudden Ick broke out (the day before I left town for a week I noticed it). When I returned the Porkfish was very sick and died a couple days later. My puffer is also ill now. He has taken to swimming directly in front of a powerhead - I guess it is kind of like being rubbed without being scratched by the rock - really a neat behavior but I would rather have never witnessed it. My shark is showing a handful of Ick spots. The lion is fine. I have lowered the SG to just under 1.018 which has helped but not cured the problem.
<It won't>
It seems like they are not getting worse but they are not getting better.  I assume a lot of the parasites are dying due to the SG but the stronger ones are living to attach to a host.  
<A good way to put this>
Instead of a massive infection killing my puffer I am afraid of the cumulative impact they are having on his gills.  If I don't get this treated I am going to have a puffer with emphysema.  All parameters (pH, nitrite, nitrate, ammonia....) are good. Whether I move the fish to a treatment "tank" or treat in the main tank - what medication can I use? I am afraid CopperSafe will kill my shark. I have Paragon II but I do not know enough about it to use it just yet. What can I do?  Should I go lower on the SG, around 1.015?
Thanks
<You might have success with a combination of elevated temperature (to the mid 80's F.) and the administration of Quinine Hydrochloride solution... sold still... and used as an anti-protozoal with some fishes. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2004-27,GGLD:en&q=quinine+hydrochloride+fish+disease&spell=1
This is a treatment I have used with success with juvenile sharks... many years ago... as a consultant to public aquariums. Bob Fenner>