Sea Apple For a Nano?--Not Advisable (6/7/05)Hi,
I inherited a 12 gallon nano cube and am interested in keeping a sea apple. The only other livestock I plan on having is zoanthids, Blasto, and possibly a couple sexy shrimp. Will this tank be large enough and will the lighting be bright enough (24 watt pc) to accommodate what I am planning on stocking? Also, is there anything that I mention that may not get along with the sea apple? Could you possibly point out some of the more notorious apple antagonizers so I can avoid them? <Anything that nips, as in virtually any fish.> The apple is definitely the focus of the tank and I'm willing to house only that creature if need be, but I'd love to make things look a little more interesting. Thank you. Mike <Sorry Mike, but I have to advise against this. The vast majority of Sea Apples slowly waste away and die even in big tanks. They are very difficult to feed. In a small tank such as yours, the chances would be even less, not to mention the devastation if it releases its toxins. Study the FAQs and articles about these on WWM and elsewhere. It is possible to set up a nice little Nano reef in a 12. I suggest you study WWM and check out our Nano forum on our chat forum for info. Hope this helps. Steve Allen.>

Sea Cukes
Quick question:  
Bob's book & your site both suggest only a nut case would keep sea cucumbers. Yet the book also implies that they might be good in a refugium. These seem to contradict.
<Actually, it's mainly the larger species, particularly the "Sea Apples" which are problematical. Many small species are fine>
I saw some fascinating small sea cucumbers (pink & bumpy--look like attached photo borrowed from your site). Am interested in one of these for my DSB/LR/Algae refugium. Am I nuts?
<Not about these cukes at least! They're fine for refugium use. Bob Fenner>
Steve

Starfish Addition Possibilities (cucumber too?) - 2/6/03
Hey again: Furniture - ugh!  Definitely not how I meant it.
<heehee... didn't think so :) But you scared me a little <G>>
Thanks for the sea star advice.  "Freshwater veteran, Marine newbie" - I am taking this endeavor very seriously (and I take deaths very badly)!
<very good, my friend>
But, alas, I have fallen short grammatically :(!  
<I have that problem daily and I get paid (a little) to do it. Ha!>
I currently have a 10 gal QT and all future inhabitants will rest there first.  
<excellent!>
Now that you mention it, any chance for a cucumber too?  
<a few are hardy... most are not worth the trouble. One of the easiest serves no useful purpose at all but is quite handsome. The Bright Yellow Fijian Cucumarid is a filter feeder that fares well and reproduces by division easily>
I haven't gotten to that section of your site yet.  I have some hitchhiking slugs from LR (or I think they are - they look like snails without shell, but with sort of a pint-size shell on
bodies).  
<actually... you have a paper shell snail of the genus Stomatella... do use that genus name to find pics on the Internet to confirm>
I did read in a recent AFM article (or other mag) that cucumbers are too hard, and to get a lettuce slug instead.  
<although most Nudibranchs are even more delicate than the Holothuroid cucumbers at large, I would agree that the lettuce slug is hardy if you can grow enough to keep it fed. Still... the choices overall are weak (sea star, cucumber or sea slug). Have you considered any of the hardier Echinoid urchins instead? Some real beauties like the Tuxedo urchin>
Would  you agree with that statement (if I have paraphrased
correctly)?  
<agreed>
I just love all the different life forms, but I know I am limited by tank size.
<actually... by species selection at this point. Do consider some hardier options to be safe. Brittle and serpent starfish are excellent too>
Thanks, again!  Rich
<best regards, Anthony>

Sea cuke too big!
Bob,
<Linda>
Hi there!  We talked a few years ago as I converted my tank to include
a Caulerpa refugium in the built-in sump area in the back.  It has
worked out pretty well.  After growing up my human babies a little, I
decided to stock the tank with a couple of interesting critters.  From
a reputable mail-order place.  I got a fancy serpent star, a
sand-sifting star, a bulb anemone, a tiger tail sea cucumber, a dwarf
feather duster, a small maroon clown (tank-raised), and a small
red-headed goby (tank-raised).  Also, a couple of macroalgae "plants"
for the display.  The sand-sifting star was doa (this was refunded
immediately).  The rest of the specimens look great and are behaving
normally.  The clownfish has bonded thoroughly with the anemone and the
goby is scooting around.  The feather duster is trying to find its
happiest spot and has attached upside-down to some rock (weird!).
The sea cucumber had really murky water and looked like it might have
expelled some stuff on shipping or it was shipped with a bunch of
detritus.  Having been forewarned, I am very wary of problems with
cukes.  I observed it in a fish bucket overnight with an airstone and
heater and several small partial water changes during that time, since
I don't have a sponge filter ready to go yet.  Upon closer observation,
it appeared fully intact with good color and was moving about.
<Good precautionary measures here>
  I added
it to my tank and am observing it.  It looks as though it is starting
to do what it should be doing.  Unfortunately, I think it is WAY too
large for my tank.
<This can be trouble... take a read through the June ish of FAMA (2003) for a pc. by Iggy Tavares re his experiences and reflections of using Sea Apples...>
It came in a package for a 30 gallon tank, which is
at least 50% smaller than mine (I undersized carefully).  Also, the
place I bought it from advertises that these specimens will be 2-5"
when sold.  Mine is at least 12 and probably more like 16"!!!!  It is
beautiful, to be sure, but I am afraid that it will not find a suitable
home in my tank.
<Agreed. I would try to trade this in>
Should I offer it to the LFS so they can find it a more appropriate
home?
<Definitely>
Your friend in fish,
Linda
<Be chatting, Bob Fenner>

Scared of turds?
WOW!
  After reading http://www.wetwebmedia.com/seacukes.htm , I think I'd rather scrub each grain of sand by hand than deal with a sandsifter like a cucumber! I don't want to turn my tank into a dangerous neighborhood!
<Hehe, no worries, the cuc's that I'm recommending are the turd-like Caribbean varieties (Holothuria floridiana) and tiger tail cuc's. Neither I, nor any of my customers, nor any search on the popular reef boards has yielded a toxic experience with these critters. Check out Dr. Shimek's forum on reef central for some more reassurance.>
What other options exist?
<Hermit crabs pretty much "scrub each grain of sand by hand", Nassarius snails turn over bits of the sand as they burrow, and so do sand sifting gobies (which are detrimental to the sandbed fauna). -Kevin>
Rich

Sea Cucumber Questions (10/21/04)
Hello crew. I hope this finds you all well. <Thank you. I hope you are well to. Steve Allen tonight.> Thank you for the prompt and informative response to my last question. I'm hoping you could field a few more about Sea Cucumbers. <I'll give it a shot.> I absolutely adore the little critters <Fascinating indeed, but some are quite risky.> and would like to add more to my 200 Gal tank. As it stands I have a pair of Pink and Green guys <Pentacta anceps> that are getting along quite well now that the Butterfly is leaving them alone. <How long have you had them. It may take months for them to starve to death if underfed.> According to your cukes page, they are
one of the more docile species. <all cukes are docile in the behavioral meaning of the word, as in not aggressive. It's their poisonous insides that are a problem.> I'm well aware of the risk in keeping any cucumber, <Good> but assuming one were intent on doing so, can you recommend (some of) the species that tend to get along well in captivity? <I'm a big fan of the small yellow Colochirus robustus, which often reproduce by fission in the tank. I started with two and now have six. Some of the detritus-eaters, such as Tiger Tails are hardy. I'd skip Medusa Worms and Sea Apples.> Perhaps you could rank those on your cukes page in terms of difficulty? If that's too much trouble, I'm specifically curious about Pink, Yellow, Black, and Tigertail Cucumbers. Do these tend to get along well in the reef aquarium? Is my tank large enough to house the latter most? Any negative interactions I should watch out for between species or with other common tank mates? Thanks for you time. <I highly recommend reading the Sea Cucumber chapter in Fenner & Calfo's "Reef Invertebrates"--very practical and useful. Another great one is Volume 4 of Fosså & Nielsen's "The Modern Coral Reef Aquarium." Hope this helps.>

Cucumber Follow-Up (10/22/04)
Okay, so I decided to get a Tigertail and a couple Black Cucumbers. I also plan to add some Yellows a little later, but I digress. I think my Tigertail is in trouble...he appears to be shedding! <Could be problem. >I noticed on your second cuke FAQs page that someone else has encountered this problem. You
(that is, Steve Allen) said that it was not normal. I was curious about what exactly is going on and did some online research. <good> I found several sources which agree it is abnormal and sign of poor health. However, I also found a number of sites which said that they secrete a mucus-like substance when stressed and still other sites which said they can accumulate a thin layer of sand which they occasionally shed - both of which say its nothing to worry about. <Well, I'd worry about "stress." This varying information shows just how much we don't know about these creatures.> Now, I'm inclined to take your word over these other sources, especially given that he's not moving around much, but I wonder if you could tell me a little more about what exactly is happening to my cucumber? <I think that the key here is its behavior. It may indeed be normal for them to shed some material, but the skin should remain intact. If not, there is a problem. Additionally, a creature that does not behave normally is having some issue. I trust you acclimated these echinoderms slowly. Hard to say if it is a water quality issue, stress from being moved to a new home, or some illness.> Also I've also emailed the conflicting
sources for more info because I'm really rather concerned about the poor little guy. I'm going to try and track down one of the texts you recommended later this weekend, but would really appreciate some quick advice. Please help. If he is indeed sick, what can I do? <Keep an eye on things and maintain excellent water quality. Consider moving it to a quarantine tank for observation and then treatment with antibiotics if this appears to be indicated.> I don't have the heart to simply yank him out.
Oh, also, I've had the Pentacta anceps for a couple months. When I first got them, they didn't look so good and there was the trouble with the Butterfly, but I feed them a ton (directly) and their colors have really come out so I think they're doing well. <Good job.> Thanks again for your help! <I certainly hope things work out. Steve Allen.>

Yellow Cucumber Follow-Up (11/30/04)
Hi Steve. <Greetings>
Thanks for your help, that is just what happens here, now I have 2 cucumbers. <cool!> That was something I was wondering but never really believed because I try to find information from books and all I find was that this creature can poison everything in the tank. <Seeing is believing. Check out Anthony Calfo & Bob Fenner's "Reef Invertebrates" book for great info on many sea cucumbers and other cool creatures, as well as excellent chapters on refugiums and algae. As for wipeout, these smaller critters are very unlikely to cause this in all but smaller tanks. It's the Sea Apples that are the big risk. Some other larger sea cucumbers are also a risk, but these little yellow ones are seldom a problem.> So lets see how many I will have next year. <Hopefully  quite a few if you can keep them healthy and well-fed.> Thank you again for so many help for this hobby. <My pleasure to play a small part in the wonderful service that WWM is.> John Hyttinen

Sea Apple liability... lawyer question?
Bob,
Who should be held responsible when a retailer sells a customer a sea apple 
which poisons the tank and doesn't even tell the customer how to feed it? In 
looking back now, soon after I purchased my first sea apple and added it to 
the tank, I started losing fish quickly. My first sea apple died because I 
wasn't told how to feed it and was told that it blew up from the inside out 
because of lack of food. I was told when I bought it that it fed much like 
that of an anemone. I have purchased a second sea apple now from the same 
retailer and I am starting to see my fish die again, one by one (four in the 
first 24 hours the sea apple was in the tank). I didn't know about the 
poison the sea apple puts out until recently and I read the question sent in 
to you by Ryan. The retailer where I bought both of my sea apples says he 
took the poison out of both of them. My question to you is: Is this 
possible?
<Re the first responsibility question... I don't know. The retailer for assuming the customer knows enough? The customer for buying something without investigating it sufficiently ahead of time? Concerning the second question; I've never heard of such a thing as removing the poisoning capacity of sea cucumbers... but don't believe it really can be done. They have a few mechanisms (front and back)... including "throwing up" much of their internal organs... some bits of which are toxic. and regenerating them later. How would you do this preventative surgery?>
I also bought a spotted moray eel (approximate size: 8") which ate other 
expensive fish and bit me! I was also sold a panther grouper that ate my 
shrimp the first night it was in the tank. I was never warned by the 
retailer about the eel or the panther grouper's eating habits or their 
aggressive behavior.
<Hmmm, maybe time to look around for other dealers.>
I am not asking you to be an attorney, but in your professional opinion, 
don't you think the retailer has a responsibility to the customers he sells 
to advise them of possible problems or special feeding habits--especially 
in a community tank such as mine. This certain retailer has even been to my 
house and is familiar with my tank.
Sincerely Submitted,
Ronnie
<Sounds dedicated, just not very well informed.
Bob Fenner >>

Question: First off I would like to say you have a great site, keep up the good work. My question is about a sea apple. I recently bought one and now I think I may have made a mistake. I have talked to may local retailer, and he tells stories about being sued for sea apples poisoning an entire tank. Also, he commented about their eggs killing an entire tank. In the past few weeks I have noticed small white growths all over my live rock, and I am concerned that these are "baby" sea apples. I would appreciate any input you have on this matter.
Bob's Answer: Ryan, I doubt that these are "baby" Sea Apples (they're definitely not). But you should be concerned. Paracucumaria, in particular of all their Order, are bad news. They don't have to reproduce to cause real trouble. Just getting "upset" by being sucked against an intake, burned by a heater, tormented by you or a tank mate... can/does bring about the end of many a pet fish hobbyists avocation.

Sea Apple?
Dear Bob:
I just received an order from FFExpress and one of the things I got for 
my reef tank is an Australian Sea Apple. This apple is huge! Its about 10" X 
4.5" What my question is, will this apple release toxins if it gets near my 
anemones. About 20 minutes after I put the apple in my tank it started 
heading straight for my biggest long tentacle anemone (8"). Then when my 
apple fell right into the anemone I got worried so I moved him to the other 
side of the tank. 
Any suggestions would be great! Thanks, Boyd Bunk
>>
These animals are very poor risks for small marine systems (only hundreds of gallons)... Keep an eye on your livestock... and be prepared to dump most all the water and replace it... add PolyFilter... and remove the animal/or the rest of your livestock if/when the Apple/cucumber eviscerates, or dies...
Bob Fenner

Sea Cucumber
I was thinking on getting a small Sea Cucumber to help rid the tank of
Detritus and to stir up the live sand. My concern is whether my brittle
star will eat the cucumber. I have never seen it take a snail or hermit
crab but wanted to make sure.
>>
Need to be careful here... Depending on the species of cucumber (make it/them small ones... more numbers rather than larger ones... definitely not the Sea Apple...too toxic, likely to cause poisoning troubles)... and your size of system (bigger than a sixty?...) you ought to look for fish-stirrers rather than cukes...
Bob Fenner, whose sand-stirrer, Sea Cucumber, Marine Scavenger pieces can be found archived at www.WetWebMedia.com