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FAQs on Copper Use, Science & Nonsense
Related Articles: Copper Use in Marine
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Use of Biological Cleaners, Aquatic
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Copper FAQs 4, & FAQs on Copper: Science,
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Product FAQs, Copper Test FAQs,
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Copper Removal 2, &
Live Rock, Marine Parasitic
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Parasitic Marine Tanks,
Parasitic Reef Tanks,
Cryptocaryoniasis, Marine Ich,
Marine Velvet Disease, Medications/Treatments
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Sulfas, Treating Disease,
Treatment Tanks,
Medications/Treatments II,
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Disease 1, Puffer Disease, | .JPG)
Not to be used in the presence of wanted invertebrate or algal life. |
Cu concentration use and duration revisited – 10/13/08 Hello
there, things not making sense to me hopefully someone can help: Quote
from WWW “Copper Safe needs to be effective from 1.5ppm - 2 ppm (from
instruction) and Cupramine is 0.5ppm. Now, I am confused on why such
great discrepancy? Not to mention that your site here says 0.2-0.3 is
ideal. <Let's try to clear this up (for sure) here... the last
values are for Cu++, free cupric ion... the two sets ahead are for
(broken by testing protocol) chelated copper compounds... Is this
clear?>” From: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/cuduration.htm Just
confused about the above because: 1) Cupramine is Cu+2 reference:
http://www.seachem.com/Library/SeaGrams/Cupramine.pdf <Mmm, yes...
"An organic complex" (e.g. amine/s...)... is NOT chelation?
http://www.oralchelation.com/LifeGlowBasic/description/p8.htm I
taught only H.S. level chemistry... and perhaps definitions have
changed, but this material IS chelated according to my understanding>
2) Cupramine is not chelated reference:
http://www.seachem.com/Library/Instructions/0966-CopperWE-4.2.pdf
listed in the instructions sections <I see this assertion... it IS
liganded in some fashion... again, a def. diff.> 3) Cu+1 is much more
toxic than Cu+2 reference:
http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Cupramine.html listed in the
second question <Yes, but... what form/at does the copper in
Cupramine, other products "end up" as?> So Bob stated 0.2-0.3ppm (the
lowest concentration) for the most toxic form of Cu being Cu+2 (at least
that’s what I interpreted from Bob’s quote). Now Seachem states Cu+1 is
most toxic. Also is Cupramine chelated? Can you see my dilemma? Can
some elaborate and clear this discrepancy on what concentrations to use
and for how long (I assume duration is still approx 3 weeks). Thanks
in advance! <I do see this... and I am sorry if my "operative"
definitions are serving to only confuse you, others... I don't know what
the doc. mentioned is referring to as Cu +1... the "normal" or most
common oxidation state of Copper is +2...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper my understanding is that all
coppers in actual physiological use are of this oxidation state... that
Cupramine (chelated or not), copper sulfate pentahydrate (citrated or
not), all other brands of copper solutions sold commercially... "DO"
what they do as "free cupric ion, = Cu ++... I would ask you to write
the fine folks at SeaChem for their further explanation. Bob Fenner>
Canthigaster valentini with Crypt – 01/02/2008 Hi,
<Hello.> I have a Valentini Puffer fish that has ich and has had
it for about 2 weeks. He's doing fine, been eating well and looking
healthy other than the white spots. I first tried soaking all his
food in garlic and Zoë and then went about using some organic rid
ich med (because it was more an organic deal and not a med). The
tank he's in is a FOWLR tank and some of the live rock was more base
rock then anything. I decided to use CopperSafe in the DT tank
(don't kill me) <I won’t, but just can tell you that quarantine
tanks are much more efficient.> and have a chelated copper test
kit for API to watch closely. After looking all over the web, it
seems that I should keep this particular brand copper at about
1.4-2ppm. I have kept it about 1.5 or so as I'm worried about using
copper with this puffer as it is. <Should be okay. This is a
chelated product (those chelated molecules are heavier than ionic
copper) that aside of copper consist of other chemicals. Therefore
the necessary level is high compared to ionic copper
recommendations. The good thing with chelated products is that they
release the copper over time. However, substrate and rock will
influence the copper efficiency, one reason why all copper products
should only be used in quarantine tanks.> I think that CopperSafe
is the least toxic copper treatment out there. This morning he
puffed up for the first time when no other fish was around or
messing with him. I've heard that this is normal but that it might
also be stress. What should be my next steps? Thanks. <Monitor
with your chelated copper test kit, keep the level, and also check
your ammonia level daily. Read
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm and the linked FAQs to
learn about the life cycle of the parasite. Keep the copper level
for at least 7-10 days. After that time and if the spots disappear
use activated carbon to remove the copper from the system. Change
the carbon every 14 days. If the spots come back in a new cycle use
a quarantine tank without rocks and substrate for treatment. Cheers
und good luck, Marco.>
Canthigaster valentini with Crypt – follow up – 01/02/2008 So
it’s now day 5 of copper treatment and everybody is doing great. The
spots on the puffer are gone and I test for copper both AM and PM
and test daily for the ammonia levels and PH levels. I will probably
go through day 10 before I start using the carbon and after a while
I will add some more live rock to seed the, now, base rock. If my
research is correct, I will have killed off the parasites and,
unless brought in to the tank again by a fish, should never see ich
again... correct? <Yes, hopefully!> Its my understanding
that fish don't create ich out of nothing, but that they get it from
somewhere and pass it along.... <Right, these are ciliate
Protozoans, they have to come from somewhere. Only their free
swimming stage (theronts) is affected effectively by chemical
treatments. In a bare bottom tank you’d also have the possibility to
remove many/all of the protomont and tomont stage (by siphoning the
bottom every day), which are encysted and now my rest in the
substrate. I do hope none of them survives the 10 days of treatment
in your tank, chances are not too bad. However, if the spots (this
is the trophont stage infesting the fish) return, because a few
tomonts survived in the substrate, move the puffer to a bare bottom
quarantine tank and treat, while the display stays fallow for at
least 4 weeks. This seems to be the most effective procedure. Good
luck, Marco.>
Canthigaster valentini with Crypt – follow up II... Cu use... same
as it ever was f' – 01/02/2008 Well I have more than just the
puffer in the tank, so I'm going to continue to treat in the
display. <Okay, but be prepared that the substrate might absorb
some of the copper and release it over time.> I read yesterday
where the life cycle of the parasite is about 3 weeks so 4 weeks of
copper should do. However they also say that you should treat the
fish 3 weeks more after the last time you see white spots, so it
might be longer. Fortunately the ich spots are gone and I'm now just
waiting the 3 weeks and testing ammonia/PH/copper levels every
evening. <Okay, but do not use the copper for more than the
planned 4 entire weeks. Besides killing the parasite, it also
affects the health of the fishes. Copper treatments should be as
long as necessary, but also as short as possible. I’d consider 7-10
days as the minimum and 4 weeks as the maximum, depending on the
copper level. Anything in between can work. Marco.> |
Using Cu to control algae in a marine system Sir, With your
expert advice and guidance, I was able to successfully thwart an
outbreak of ich using copper in my saltwater fish-only display tank. In
fact, I didn't lose one occupant!!! (I know, you said to get a
quarantine tank and I am working on it!) <Good> During the 14 day
treatment regime, I noticed that virtually all traces of algae stopped
growing and eventually disappeared, making the tank look much nicer!!!
Is there any harm in continuing to use copper to control the growth of
algae? If so, what level should I maintain in the tank to prevent
harming the fish? Thanks again!!!! Mike Basciano <Large/public
aquariums do use copper compounds to both control nuisance algae and
epizootics... But I caution against this in residential/hobbyist
settings... it's too easy to "get into trouble"... and to some degree
poison ones fish livestock while thwarting the algae... Better to look
to other control mechanisms (limiting nutrients, providing predators,
competitors...) as listed here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/algaeconMar.htm Bob Fenner>
Working With Copper Thanks for the response... I've moved the
fish to the treatment tank with SeaCure copper treatment after a five
minute freshwater dip last night. <Excellent procedure...Treat the
fish in a separate tank!> This morning the fish that aren't hiding
are twitching a little...does a copper treatment effect fish
behavior? How can I discern copper treatment behavior from the stress
of the catch and dip? <Well, if copper is negatively affecting your
fishes, you'll often see some physical manifestations, such as damage to
the skin, possible heavy breathing, and obvious distress. I would not be
overly concerned about the "twitching" that you're observing, as long as
the fishes are otherwise okay, and as long as you are monitoring the
copper levels regularly to assure that they are at proper levels.>
The wrasse did a header into the glass during his dip and he seemed to
be listless this morning. <Well, remember- freshwater dips do
induce some stress/shock on fishes...some handle it better than others.
However, if done correctly, the dip process is quite safe and generally
harmless to most fishes> How little room for error is there on the
level of copper in the water? <Really, IMO- not too much. Copper is a
reliable, effective, and largely safe cure for Cryptocaryon and
Amyloodinium, but you absolutely have to monitor the level of copper in
your water to avoid killing your fish!> Does carbon, like in the
Magnum 350 I have on the treatment tank, effect copper levels? <It
will remove some copper, so be sure to test and maintain a proper
therapeutic level in the treatment tank> Please explain the
difference in the types of copper treatments in relation the copper
test kits available. I used a Red Sea test kit...I've never had good
experiences with their test kits and I'm going to get another one today.
Thanks for all your help, Damon <Well, Damon- this explanation would
fill the page! Fortunately for you, the WWM site has lots of information
on the use of copper, and how to test for it in your aquarium. Do a
search of the site and you'll find more information than you could
imagine on this topic! It's good reading, and very important. Good luck!
Regards, Scott F>
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