Fish food ingredient suppliers    8/8/08
I am looking to experiment with fish/coral foods and looking for suppliers of ingredients such as zooplankton, phytoplankton, freeze dried copepods, mysis, etc...can you recommend any suppliers of such ingredients? I am looking for bulk quantities.
<Mmm, the best, bar none that I'm aware of is Argent Labs: http://www.argent-labs.com/
Bob Fenner>

Homemade food question 02/25/2008
Crew,
<<G'Morning, Andrew today>>
Thank you in advance for your response. I would like to make my own frozen food recipe for my tank mates. I purchased something I found in the frozen food section of my grocery store and want to make sure it's okay. It is a package that contains; raw octopus, raw cuttlefish, raw squid, raw shrimp and cooked clams or mussels. My questions are these. Should I take out the cooked clams or mussels?
<<Yes, please do. All foods used in making your own homemade prep's should be raw>>
I have to thaw this bag in order to put it in the blender then I re-freeze the finished product. I've always heard re-freezing is bad but aren't all shrimp etc. "previously frozen? Bob's recipe in his book has raw shrimp as one of the ingredients and any raw shrimp I can get is "previously frozen" and then I will be re-freezing. Is this okay?
<<Where ever possible, its best to visit your local fish monger, fish department at a local super market and buy the seafood from there. This way, its not already frozen, its fresh. I am very finicky about re-freezing foods after its been thawed, so, I would not do this>>
The full recipe will contain the following in addition to whatever you say I should add from the above: Prime Reef flakes, Formula One gel pack, Cyclopeeze flake, Garlic clove, Selcon & dried seaweed/algae sheets. Thank You!
<<All of them additions sound fine to me>>
Ben
<<Thanks for the questions, A Nixon>>

Maintaining Calcium, Alkalinity, & PH + Homemade Fish Food -12/19/2007
Hello WetWebMedia,
<Hi, sorry for the delay...>
I am currently using B-Ionics Part A & B to maintain alkalinity at 8.3 dKH, calcium at 340 ppm, and PH daytime 8.27 nighttime 8.37.
<It rises at night? Huh. Usually the opposite is the case.>
I would like to house hard corals at some point, but I believe my calcium needs to be much higher.
<It depends on what type of stony corals. 400ppm is enough for the slower-growing "LPS" corals and such.>
Not certain how to make that happen. I have a 90 gallon tank with a 20 gallon sump. I add 20 cc's of part A and 50 cc's of part B each morning to maintain these levels.
<Two part solutions are great for smaller tanks, but they're not so helpful in larger systems. You're likely going to have to start dosing Kalk and/or calcium chloride and baking soda (more likely some combination of all those).>
I wonder if there is another means by which I can increase calcium without adversely affecting my alkalinity and PH. I am almost out of B-Ionics. Would you suggest I continue to use B-Ionics (which isn't cheap),
<No, because, like you said, it's not cheap (thus good for small systems where you don't need much, but unreasonably expensive to use for larger systems).>
or would it be better and more cost effective if I switch to Kalkwasser?
You can either switch to Kalk or start using Kalk in addition to the two-part solution. It's up to you. Try different things (slowly), always measuring your calcium and alkalinity. Don't change anything too fast.>
Just as an aside, I can't afford a calcium reactor.
<You don't need one.>
Also, I'm thinking of making my own fish food because my LFS does not always have what I need in stock. In addition to adding shrimp, sea fish (any recommendations?), clam, squid, clams/mussels, flake food; I was think about adding Green Food Feast powder. Here is a list of ingredients:
Spirulina, chlorella, alfalfa leaf, nettles leaf, dandelion leaf, cilantro leaf, bladderwrack, kelp, Irish moss, wheat grass, barley grass, oat grass, rose hips, broccoli, cabbage, kale, spinach, red clover blossoms, bee pollen, acerola berry extract, cranberries, licorice root, and ginger root
<I'm not sure about all the terrestrial vegetation you got here. When I make "veggie" food I only use seaweeds (typically sold in Asian food markets or those high-end new-age places like Whole Foods). For some tips/info on making your own food:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/feeding.htm
and here
http://www.asira.org/feedingyourtanks>
Is there anything listed that would be harmful to my tank inhabitants?
<It's hard to say... I think you have some things in there that are "untested"/"un-reasearched" for use as marine pet fish foods. There's nothing that stands out to me as obviously potentially toxic (though I could be wrong). But in any case, why use things like bee pollen?>
I have a Yellow Tang, Kole Tang, Royal Gramma, Engineer Goby, Pink Spotted Goby, Coris Wrasse, Dispar Anthias, BTA, Rock Anemone, Star Polyp, Torch Coral, Candy Cane Coral, Mushrooms, Xenia, Cleaner Shrimp, Fire Shrimp, Coral Banded Shrimp, Emerald Crab, Sally Lightfoot Crab, Red Fromia Star, Brittle Star, hermit crabs, and snails.
Thanks,
Jackie
<De nada,
Sara M.>

Making food with baby vitamins 12/15/2007
Hi, I found out you can sometimes use baby vitamins for reef aquariums and was wondering if liquid poly-vi-sol multivitamin for infants would work. here is a link so you can see ingredients. http://www.walgreens.com/store/product.jsp?CATID=100149&navAction=jump&navCount=1&skuid=sku303489&id=prod3489#nutrition
<Yes, this would be fine... though there are more complete formulations, products>
If not could you give me a brand name that you would suggest?
<Most all human-intended are fine... the ones with "more 100% of daily requirement" mixes are better>
Also, how can I apply it directly (safely) to a 45 gallon tank with 2 clowns and full of soft and hard corals.
<Can be simply dropped in>
How much should I use to make a batch of homemade food say per/pound?
<Mmm, 10-20 drops per pound of mix is fine>
Also I found this website showing the vitamins fish need. http://www2.hawaii.edu/~delbeek/delb16.html#table1 it gives examples of vitamins like A, C, D, E, B1-B6, B12 and others. Do you know of any application where you buy these vitamins at a pharmacy and grind them up for use?
<Try the "health food stores"... online or brick and mortar... I would just use liquid prep.s>
Maybe a recipe to make sure not to overdose.
<Very hard to do... only the "carriers" in the fat soluble (e.g. D and E) are really problematical... for coating the water surface area... and with good skimming, circulation, not even these are problematical>
I just thought that by doing this you could make sure and get all the vitamins you think necessary and none that you don't. Thanks so much for all the help!
<Mmm, okay... and welcome! Bob Fenner>

Re: Making Food With Baby Vitamins, addended, Copper Preservative Concern 12/16/07
<Hi, Pufferpunk here with you tonight.>
Thanks for the fast reply and I'm sorry to bother you again. I was searching for a human multivitamin and noticed that the ones I looked at had copper in them and thought that might not be a good choice.
<Correct. Copper is deadly to your inverts & leeches into your rock & sand. You definitely don't want that in your tank.>
<<Actually, the concentration, amount of copper here is miniscule... a preservative of no consequence... and Copper is indeed a micro-nutrient... for most life, including our own. Do not be concerned re its consequences here. Bob Fenner>>
Also some had alcohol in them and thought I should probably avoid those as well.
<<Also not a worry. RMF>>
<Agreed!>
I looked at GNC pharmacy. Am I not looking in the right place? Also as far as adding them to the tank directly how many drops per gallon do you suggest and how often? Thanks always!
<Personally, I would not skimp when it comes to your reef tank. Marine vitamins are not that expensive & are extremely concentrated. Make the leap & purchase some for your inhabitants. Try Selcon or Zoa vitamins. Soak their food (prepared frozen mix, frozen Mysis, etc. I also add other foods in the mix, including oyster eggs & DT's phytoplankton) overnight & spot-feed your LPS with a turkey baster & any other meaty corals, including your palys. Your fish will thank you too! I also feed my marine fish daily, alternating pellets & frozen foods. ~PP>

Sodium tripolyphosphate; Is supermarket shrimp safe for marine fish?  4/5/07
Is the sodium tripolyphosphate found in supermarket frozen raw shrimp safe for marine fish?<I wouldn’t use anything with it in it. Depending on what livestock you’re feeding, I’d go with frozen krill, or similar, available through your local fish/pet store. Sodium tripolyphosphate, or STPP, is a chemical preservative that has the added merchant bonus of increasing the sellable weight of a product. It also makes seafood taste funny! We don’t need it and neither do our little fishy friends!>Thank you for your time.<You're welcome! -Lynn>

DIY Food  3/23/07
Hi Bob.
<Hello Brandon in Bob's stead.>
I have been making my own DIY food.
<Cool.>
I have put in sliced and fresh jellyfish in it.
<Hmmm.  What kind of grocery store do you have in town?>
Blend it with all the other food. Some said that jellyfish is not in the diet of fish and corals so I was wondering if it will cause any harm.
<This is sort of true.  There are fish that will eat them such as the Banner Fish, Arrow Crabs have bee known to eat them as well as certain other fish and snails.>
I only considered the addition of jellyfish after looking up for its nutritional value. It is part of the diet of sea turtle.
<This is true.>
Is it all right to have jellyfish as part of the diet for fish and corals?
<I would not be concerned with the addition.  I would watch the fishes after I fed it to them looking for abnormal behavior.  Brandon.>

Small Octopus as fresh food  7/18/06
Hello WWM crew!
  I have been able to catch some baby octopus in my area which i froze, intending to use them for bait, but i never ended up using them. Do you think these would be a safe food to feed my fish? My fish are 1 flame hawk, 4 Nemos, 1 eibli angel, and 1 Bluering angel.
<Should be fine. I might cut out the beak and ink gland first, cut into bite-sized pieces, give them a rinse ahead of time. Bob Fenner>

Feeding the Reef Tank   7/4/06
Hi there....sorry for asking 2 questions in one day.
<No worries.>
  I'll make this short.  
<Awesome.>
What product do you recommend as food for SPS corals?
<Large refugia is great, other than that variety...specifically?; Read this: http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic20086-9-1.aspx .>
Or personally, what product have you used for SPS food and have had great results?  
<Google: Eric "Hugo" Borneman Recipe.>
Thank you
<Adam J.>

CSS125 (skimmer) crazy for clam   6/11/06
Hello again oh wise Wet Ones,
<Ahh, Grasshoppahfish>
Another query for you:  I have a 75 gallon FOWLR that I occasionally feed cherrystone clams. I buy them at the supermarket, freeze them for 3 days, thaw them in the fridge and then feed the tank by cracking open the shell and dropping the whole thing in. I later remove the empty shell.  Every time I do this (feed the tank with the clam) my skimmer (Coralife Super Skimmer 125) goes nuts.
<Yep. To be expected...>
The collection cup fills up in less than an hour and if I don't empty it it will proceed to overflow.  The skimmate is a watery green as opposed to the usual brown muck it pulls out.  Am I doing something wrong or is this normal?
Thanks again,
Eric
<Is "normal"... from added surfactant with the clam... I'd just empty the cup in time... Bob Fenner>

Getting Double Saddle Butterfly to eat  - 3/1/2006
Hi Bob and Crew....hope you're all keeping well.
<I am, thanks>
I acquired a Double Saddle Butterfly last weekend for my 55 Gall FOWLR.
<... a small world for this species>
I made sure I acclimated him properly and added him to the tank on Saturday afternoon. Only other inhabitants are a couple of Green Chromis.
<Can be bullies in such a sized system, tankmate>
I was told by my LFS that he would eat pretty much anything.....
<Mmm, when in good health, adjusted... yes>
I'd done some research on your site first and found out that he is one of the easier to keep butterflies. Anyways after he'd been in the tank for around 5 hours,
I added some Mysis for my Chromis and he seemed to have a bit of a go at it as well (I'm not sure if he actually ate any of it because the lights were out).
<Not likely to feed the first day or two>
Day 2 I gave more Mysis and as soon as it hit the water he was up looking for it, but turned his nose up at it when he saw what it was. Next
day I tried again, but added some Garlic Extreme before feeding. He went into a frenzy but again never took any (I also added some very finely
chopped Mussel). Day 3 (today) and same...he was actually at the front of the tank looking for food when I came home from work.
<Mmm, might have damaged mouth... very common... from capture, transport, bagging...>
I'm not overly concerned, because he looks a really healthy specimen. He's about 3 inches and acting fine. I'm off to my LFS tomorrow to pick up some
live Brine Shrimp (does this sound OK?)
<For periodic use, yes>
....can you suggest anything else to get him eating?
<Posted... on WWM...>
I've noticed he has a pick at the LR so hopefully he's getting some goodness out of that for now.
Thanks in advance
Phil P
<I do hope/trust you have healthy live rock in abundance as well. Bob Fenner>

Re: Getting Double Saddle Butterfly to eat - Part II    3/2/06
Bob, thanks for the quick reply....
<Welcome>
I got the Live Brine shrimp on my way home and added it to the tank. He takes the food in his mouth but then spits it back out. It's as if he wants
something else instead (but I don't know what!!). His mouth looks perfectly healthy (no signs of any reddening at all, or obvious damage).
<Good>
There's plenty of Live Rock in there (about 60lbs, I'm adding another few pounds of cured at the weekend)
<Also good>
I'm a bit confused over your comment re the bullying in the tank. Do you mean the Chromis might be a bully, or the Butterfly?
<The Chromis... though rare for the genus in general (in comparison to many other Pomacentrids), in such a small volume (four feet long is not much running room), even relatively "peaceful" damsels can pester easily-disturbed fishes like most all Butterflies to the point of non-feeding. This being said, it is not uncommon for new Chaetodonts to not feed for a few days after arrival. I would just keep offering an assortment of small meaty foods and observing this specimen. Bob Fenner>

Re: Getting Double Saddle Butterfly to eat - Part III  - 03/05/06
Bob,
<Phil>
Thought I'd give you an update. The DSB has been eating happily for the last two days now. I concocted a finely chopped mix of Mysis, Cockle and
Lancefish tails and added two drops of extreme garlic per teaspoonful. I feed about 1/4 teaspoon in one go. He takes some of it in the water column
and then picks the rest off the LR for a while later. The Chromis seems to like it too. Hope this helps anyone else who is looking for advice.
Many Thanks
Phil P
<Ah, outstanding. Congratulations on your success... will post. Bob Fenner>

D.I.Y. Fish food
    I have found several recipes for homemade or DIY fish food for saltwater/reef tanks on the internet and in books.  Some suggest using canned oysters/clams/crab meat etc, but says to watch for preservatives.  They seem to fail to mention what preservatives to watch for or should they be avoided in all instances?
<Mmm, better to find/use fresh... or frozen/defrosted>
I used the search but didn't find anything relating to this subject.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.           Thank You!
<Most seafoods are "preserved" with sterile techniques, possibly extra salt... can be simply rinsed in freshwater if these are used... fresher are better. Bob Fenner>

Reef Chili?
Hi Bob,
< Bob at IMAC, Blundell here. >
Are you familiar with Reef Chili, a zooplankton/phytoplankton formula for coral feeding? < Yep. > It comes in a very, very fine powder-like form which is to be shaken seriously with tank water (a blender would work well) before feeding (includes a tiny spoon for precise measuring).  I believe this product was originally available in a frozen formula but the expense of shipping drove it to the "powder" formula.  The feeding response appears to be good, but it's obviously difficult to determine actual consumption. < Indeed, be careful to not overfeed as small particles can become trapped in filters and breakdown. >   Others appear to have had good results (daughter colonies on LPS's, etc.)  Care to opine? < I think it is great food.  Nothing bad to say about it.  However, I think you can get better food, or cheaper food, or just make your own.  But as for convenience and small size it is great.  I'd probably also use golden pearls (brineshrimpdirect.com) or Cyclop-eeze or rotifers and things like that as well. >
Thanks.
<  Blundell  >

Disease from fish food?
Hello Crew. I have a quick question for you regarding disease from a food mixture that I made. I took an oyster, several clams and several mussels and ground them up in a blender, and then froze the mixture for maybe 12 hours before feeding some to my tank. I know freezing is supposed to kill parasites, but my coral beauty angel fish has a dusty looking rash on his face the day after feeding. My other fish look fine.
I was wondering if I should have allowed the mixture to be frozen longer than 12 hours to assure that there were no parasites or disease in the mixture. It has been 2-3 weeks now and besides the rash there is no heavy breathing or other sick behavior by the angel. 
Thanks for your help. I know if anyone can help me you guys can, and I really appreciate all the help you give all of us who read your web site.
Cord.
<Half a day should've been long enough to kill all pathogens... Perhaps the food influenced your water quality negatively... Or could be entirely unrelated... Am tempted to write that you could try an experiment with another tank, feeding this food to see if there are similar results... Good observations, writing. Bob Fenner>

Use of a fresh clam for Marine fish
Would it be advisable to use a clam every time bringing home a fish? Specifically, a Butterfly, Tang, or Angel? <You could if you wanted> 
Or do I run the risk of spoiling the fish with this treat from the get-go? <Not likely, but depends on the species> 
Also, after freezing the clam for a day, do I then let it thaw in salt water before dropping it in the tank? <Countertop, microwave, however :) Just be aware of the biological concerns when handling raw meat, as always> 
Thanks again, Michael! 
<No problem> 
Daniel

Clam Questions (4/8/2004)
Hello everyone, <Hi, Michael here this morning> thank you so much for your site, and your time for questions! <You're welcome>
With regards to using a fresh clam to entice finicky eaters, are you guys talking about going to the local market, <yep> and buying a clam from their seafood section?  Any clam? <Any clan fit for human consumption.  Make sure you freeze it for a day or so to help kill off any pathogens>
Thank you very much! <Anytime>
Daniel
<M. Maddox>

Trick to dicing Squid/meaty fish foods 3/28/04
Hello Crew!
<whassup>
Thanks again for a wonderful site full of great information!  I am wondering if the crew knows of an trick or technique to help me out.  Per your recommendations, I have added fresh squid to
the feeding routine for my minireef.  I rotate through
Formula one, Brine shrimp, Mysis shrimp (both soaked in
Vita-chem), and Bio-Blend.  
<please do reconsider using brine shrimp even soaked... it really is a hollow food (very poor nutritionally). Use most any other ocean meats instead: Pacifica plankton, diced krill, fish roe, etc... or Cyclops-eeze (frozen or freeze-dried)>
OK, what is the best way to cut/grind the rubbery squid up so it is in small enough pieces for my fish (perculas, damsel, gobies) to eat without me having to do a fishy Heimlich on??  It currently takes me 10 minutes with a razor blade trying to cut it up and it is frustrating!  ARRRRGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!  There HAS to be a
better way!
<yes... a very simple/easy trick: cut ocean meats while frozen or nearly so (food processor or cutting by hand with knife). A breeze>
Thanks and guys rule!
<rock on my salty brother. Anthony>

Cooked foods
Hi WWM crew! <Hi Jonathan>
I feed my porcupine puffer a variety of meaty foods (krill, shelled shrimp,
octopus, squid, scallops, mussels and clams) and would like to feed him some
crab legs to ensure his teeth are getting a good grinding.  My grocery store
only sells pre-cooked crab legs and I was wondering if this is ok to feed
him, or if I should go to an Asian market and get live crabs.  I also
noticed in the FAQs that some people were feeding their puffers canned
seafood.  Aren't canned foods cooked? <The biggest problem is what they are cooked with. So you need to check the ingredients closely, I don't think they need things like butter etc.>  My main concern is if feeding cooked foods can cause health problems. <Just check for what they are cooked with and make sure they are pretty much clean. Rinse them if necessary. Good luck, MacL>
Thanks,
Jonathan

Shrimp for food
Bob, <Steve Allen tonight>
I have read in a book that you can buy shrimp for your local grocery store. Freeze it. Shave it. Feed it.
Is this true? <Yes> If so I would think that this would be
a fresher method for vs. the prepared frozen foods. <Not necessarily better, but a good part of a balanced diet.>
I have
-Damsels
-Tomato Clowns
-False Clowns
-Anenomes (Long Hair)
-Button Polyp
-Yellow Polyp
-Hairy Mushroom coral
-Mushroom coral
-Numerous inverts (emerald, arrow, sandsifter, snails)
Would any of these species benefit from this type of feeding within the rotation? <All fish certainly benefit from a varied diet, just like we do. I rotate 4 kinds of dry food, 5 or 6 frozen and some fresh in my tank. Bob's book "The Conscientious Marine Aquarium" has his great recipe for homemade fish food. I by a disgusting "seafood gumbo" mix at Albertson's (shrimp/octopus/squid/mussel/fake crab) and use that. The fish gobble it up. Soaking foods in HUFAs & maybe vitamins is also a good idea.>
Thanks <You're welcome> -CPN

Human food?
<Hello, Ananda answering the puffer questions tonight...>
Well, I'm happy to say that this is the first time that I'm sending an email without sickness or a fishy funeral pending. In fact, everything is going just fine except that my fridge went out,
<Gack!>
so all of the meaty stuff that I feed my porcupine puffer is no good, and I don't want to make him subsist on Spirulina flakes until the repair and restock can occur (2 more days).
<While he may not be thrilled with Spirulina flakes, he would be okay for a day or three. But I completely understand the desire to feed your fish the good stuff.>
So, what other human food can he eat?  Fruits, nuts?  Canned tuna, sardines, clams?
<You could stop at the grocery store or deli and get a small package of frozen shrimp, or one of those "krab" sticks. I think I would avoid the oily canned fish (sardines, any oil-packed fish). Perhaps canned shrimp or crab -- rinse well to get rid of any added salt. If you live in any of the northern states, you might be able to use your car as a temporary refrigerator for the opened food container. Regarding fruit, I have heard of one porcupine puffer who loved bananas!>
Or should I just go for sushi tonight and bring him home a treat from the sushi bar?
<Ah, sushi is such a wonderful thing....I would go to my favorite sushi place and ask the sushi chefs if they have any day-old "leftovers", or scraps that are cosmetically unsuitable for sushi. Those would probably be fine for your puffer.>
<Hopefully this reaches you in time for your sushi excursion...
Regards, Ananda>

Human food?
Well, I'm happy to say that this is the first time that I'm sending an email
without sickness or a fishy funeral pending.  In fact, everything is going
just fine except that my fridge went out, so all of the meaty stuff that I
feed my porcupine puffer is no good, and I don't want to make him subsist on
Spirulina flakes until the repair and restock can occur (2 more days).
<If it's not too "stinky" can likely be refrozen, saved, fed>
So, what other human food can he eat?  Fruits, nuts?  Canned tuna, sardines,
clams?
<Clams of all these>
Or should I just go for sushi tonight and bring him home a treat from the
sushi bar?
<To heck with the puffer, I'm coming right over! Actually, I would hold off for the two days if necessary, or proffer freeze-dried krill (one of their faves). No problem. Bob Fenner>

RE: Human food?
Actually, he loves the Spirulina flakes from O.S.I.
<Ah, I was hoping it was those...they have a good percentage of shrimp, which is probably why the puffer likes them.>
I just know that there's no way to fill him up on them when he's used to frozen krill or frozen marine blend, which I rotate.  And yes, I already do the sushi scrap trick when I go out...they must think that we're nuts.
<Many people would say that we are. :-) >
Bananas huh?  I've always thought that he'd like stuff like that, or dried apricots and apples, but they're all so high in sugar that I didn't think it would be very healthy for him. Besides, you never know what weird allergy they might have. Do they even have allergies to foods?
<I have never heard of that happening. Dried fruits are always higher in sugar on a per-weight basis than fresh fruits, so I wouldn't recommend dried fruit. But an occasional bit of banana shouldn't hurt.>  
Anyway, hopefully the repair guy will get the right parts tomorrow.  Till then, the frozen stuff was actually saved, but it's across town at my girlfriends place.  Here in gusty SoCal.
<Glad to hear you were able to keep the frozen stuff safe.>
Thanks for your help...y'all are the best!
<You're quite welcome...and thank you. --Ananda>

The Real Bob Sneaks In... for Gelatin
Bob, I read on your Foods/feeding/nutrition FAQs that you recommend "alginates" as a substitute for gelatin on food preparation.
You also mention that the alginates are not necessarily too easy to find, that you need to order them from chemical companies.
<Yes>
I was wondering if you ever heard of this... Though I don't remember the name, I remember buying it at the natural foods store,
a gelatin substitute, made out of a seaweed.
<Yes... "these are them">
I remember it being some colorless flakes that you would mix with fruit juice or whatever it was you wanted to have gelatinized. I thought it was worth mentioning, unless you already know about it and I am just trying to re-invent the wheel.
David
<Thank you much... the company "Kelco" here in town (Used to belong to Merck) makes a few tons of these glucoproteins a day for beer foam (yum), emulsifiers for ice creams, cosmetics... many more products. Bob Fenner>

DIY Selcon?
Sorry if my previous e-mail finds its way to you and this is a repost.
<Haven't seen it>
I found this recipe for DIY Selcon on a message board. Is this comparable to the brand name? If not, is it safe as an additive to frozen/dry foods?
<Mmm, yes to the latter. Not exactly the same components, formulation.>
125ml pure cod liver - menhaden oil (or a mixture of omega 3 fatty acids such as DHA/EPA) add 12 ml lecithin 2 grams Spirulina powder (20 microns) and 100 ml RO water.
Blend all this until its like a pudding consistency.
Thanks in advance.
Ted
<Bob Fenner>

Bob's Recipe
Bob, I have been using your fish food recipe for years. It has been
incredible for me. I have a couple of questions because of something
that has popped up in a local discussion.
<Okay>
Fatty acids - Omega 3 being more important than protein in fish food..
<Not more important, but a group of essential nutrients. Both are important, necessary for fish health, growth, reproduction.>
This led me to wonder about your recipe. Is the gelatin there to bind
the oil, as well as keep the puree in some larger chunks for the fish ?
<Both actually. Bob Fenner>
Deb Hadford

Gelatin-based foods - 2/12/03
Greetings Krewe!!!
<whassup G-money?>
I continue to have algae problems in my 20 Gallon mini-reef. My water parameters are good - 0 Ammonia, 0 Nitrates, 0 Nitrites, 8.2 Ph. I'm changing about 3 gallons per week with pre-mixed and aerated water.
<all good>
The only abnormal parameter is low Calcium. Will/can increasing Calcium in tank help with algae?
<the calcium does not per se (other than long term support of desirable calcifying algae that can out-compete nuisance forms)... however, some calcium like Kalkwasser can precipitate phosphates and raise pH which both immediately inhibit some nuisance algae>
What's the best method for this size tank?
<likely bigger water changes actually>
I have been doing my best to reduce nutrient import. I feed twice weekly with a mix of Formula 1, Formula 2, and Mysis.
<The Formula foods are good... but messy>
Export is via Remora Pro skimmer and macro algae in hang-on refugium.
<awesome>
Today's FAQ's have a reply from Anthony in reply to draining frozen
food: "Gelatin based foods cannot be treated this way... of course, gelatin based foods are also catch-22 and arguably not the best fare either. Best regards, Anthony"
I am doing my best to drain my food, but I'm still having trouble. Are the Formula brand foods gelatin-based?
<yep>
Am I suffering from gelatin-based food syndrome??
<likely not for the fine skimmer you have can temper it... there is some other nutrient issue at hand IMO. Does the skimmer work well (several cups of skimmate weekly in this case?)>
One more quick question - I'm having trouble finding a good method to block large pieces of algae and bubbles from flowing back into the tank while still allowing copepods and other small organisms to return to the main tank. Thoughts, ideas?
<not sure... is this an upstream or downstream refugium? Assumedly upstream? At any rate, neither the bubbles or algae should exist... we need to stop them at the source. I fear that your algae is Caulerpa or some other easily fragmented form (even the fine Gracilaria). Do consider a more stable macro in this case like Chaetomorpha>
Thanks! -Jeremy
<best regards, Anthony>

Home-made frozen foods
Bob,
I'm interested in putting together some frozen foods at home for my tangs, 
French Angel and trigger. What will work as a gel binder? Is it a good 
idea to make these foods at home or is it better just to buy them already 
made? Are there any good articles on the subject?
Thanks, Tony
>>
Good idea... very high cost savings per unit.. and fun to do. The best binder in my opinion are alginates (derived from marine algae)... they are completely digestible by microbes and bigger livestock... Down from there is... nothing! Just blending and freezing your components in little blocks (we, including a few commercial fish food manufacturers, used to do this using "egg-crate", aka Louver that you can buy at large home improvement centers... for overhead lighting... with 1/4" gaps...
Lastly, the use of gelatins for human use... some of these are of a dubious destiny in a captive aquatic system... mostly removed by skimmers, and periodic vacuuming of the substrate.
There are a few old articles on this subject, as well as a mention in Stephen Spotte's works (see Fish and Invertebrate Culture in Closed Systems), or my Conscientious Marine Aquarist. Bob Fenner

Sourcing Alginate Binders
Question: Hi....I noticed in FAQ #104 you mention alginates as the best
binder for creating your own frozen foods. Where can you find alginates?
>>
These common emulsifying agents may have to be special ordered through a chemical supply house. If it were me, I'd first take a look through your local "Yellow Pages" directory under the term "Chemicals", and call them for sodium alginate (most commonly used form as food binder). If there is no local source, try a larger) college (the biochemistry, biology departments) and ask them if they have some, can give you their source. Next, I would try the inserting the name: biological supply and alginates in your computers search engines... and following the sources it leads you to.
Bob Fenner

So what are you saying re gelatin use in foods?
< Jules wrote to Jim >
>>did you say that the Prime Reef food had a gelatin base? Fenner 
>>says at P 131 that Gelatin Based frozen foods should never be 
>>used.<<
Bob,
correct me if I am wrong but most Ocean Nutrition frozen foods do contain gelatin as a binder ? if so why the negative comment towards gelatin ? did you and Chris Turk have a falling out ?
Jim Stime
Aquarium Design
http://www.aquarium-design.com
<Hey Jim, nah to any falling out, but haven't chatted with Chris in months. On this issue, he did/has at times used other binding/emulsifying agents (principally alginates... made here in San Diego BTW), but we/I do have a disagreement with the continuous use of gelatin in fish foods... but all else being equal (which it never is), if folks have decent maintenance protocols (water changes, vacuuming, skimmers...), there's little chance of "gelatin deaths".
Bob Fenner>

So what are you saying ?
>From: "Robert Fenner" <by Bob Fenner>
>there's little chance of "gelatin deaths". <
Bob,
I pondered about your message a bit more..... so is gelatin a resulting maintenance issue or a ( lack of ) nutritional issue ?
<Much more a maintenance issue... not much useful as a nutrient to fishes, other aquatic life... but gloms the substrate together...
Bob Fenner>
* sending this message as I look in my freezer full of Ocean Nutrition frozen foods * < lol >
Jim, Aquarium Design

Re: so what are you saying ?
>From: "Robert Fenner" <by Bob Fenner>
>Much more a maintenance issue... not much useful as a nutrient to 
>fishes, other aquatic life... but gloms the substrate together...
>Bob Fenner>
Bob,
that makes sense. I have another customer who uses the ON Frozen foods quite a bit and it explains why her gravel is always got lots of stuff that clumps it together.
<Yes... it's the gelatin>
so, what frozen food do you like ?
<Lines? You know this situation/game Jim... because these msg.s go who knows where am leery of unintentional endorsements... The best are those imported ones from TMC that are irradiated... but most any/all that don't involve gelatins are fine...>
Jim, Aquarium Design
<Bob Fenner, WWM>

Re: unidentified Algae, BGA
Thank you for your reply Bob.  I spoke with Boyd Enterprises regarding their product Chemi-Clean.
<Very nice boys... I knew their father, Dick Boyd... a real innovator>
  Would you recommend I try this product in my reef to rid the Cyano that is very present as "red slime" in my fuge and as the "blue-green Cyano" you recently identified from the reef pics I sent you?  They claim this product will have no adverse effects on the reef nor will it create any phosphate problems.  Do you agree and is it worth a try?
<Mmm, not entirely. Try as I might, I have not been able to find what this product is... other than that it does not contain Erythromycin...>
By the way, Boyd himself (son) also made a few recommendations to me.  He suggested I switch from Oceanic Salt mix to Tropic Marin.
<A good idea>
My Calcium is high 500 and has been as high as 550+ with no addition of Calcium.  He claims that when testing Oceanic, many batches contained very high Calcium levels 700+.
<Yikes!>
I am going to test the calcium on the batch I am currently using. He also recommended that I stray away from feeding my reef the delicious frozen concoction 3X per week made basically of Eric H. Borneman's recipe and try "Phycopure" made by Algagen and perhaps some "Cyclops Eeze". 
<Another worthy suggestion>
It was also recommended to continue to feed my fish pellets/Nori as I have been on alternate days. He felt my frozen cube recipe was just blowing too many nutrients around the reef.  Your thoughts would be appreciated.
<All sound good. Bob Fenner>
Thanks again.
Paul Maresca

Trick to dicing Squid/meaty fish foods 3/28/04
Hello Crew!
<whassup>
Thanks again for a wonderful site full of great information!  I am wondering if the crew knows of an trick or technique to help me out.  Per your recommendations, I have added fresh squid to
the feeding routine for my minireef.  I rotate through
Formula one, Brine shrimp, Mysis shrimp (both soaked in
Vita-chem), and Bio-Blend.  
<please do reconsider using brine shrimp even soaked... it really is a hollow food (very poor nutritionally). Use most any other ocean meats instead: Pacifica plankton, diced krill, fish roe, etc... or Cyclops-eeze (frozen or freeze-dried)>
OK, what is the best way to cut/grind the rubbery squid up so it is in small enough pieces for my fish (perculas, damsel, gobies) to eat without me having to do a fishy Heimlich on??  It currently takes me 10 minutes with a razor blade trying to cut it up and it is frustrating!  ARRRRGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!  There HAS to be a
better way!
<yes... a very simple/easy trick: cut ocean meats while frozen or nearly so (food processor or cutting by hand with knife). A breeze>
Thanks and guys rule!
<rock on my salty brother. Anthony>