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FAQs on Marine Water Quality involving Phosphates,
Control
Related Articles:
Phosphates
in Marine Aquarium Systems by Marco Lichtenberger,
Ammonia,
Nitrates, Nitrites,
Silicates, Marine Chemical Filtrants,
Related FAQs: Phosphates 1, Phosphates 2,
& FAQs on Phosphate: Importance,
Science, Measure,
Sources,
Chemical Filtrants,
Troubleshooting/Fixing,
& Nitrates, Nitrites, Ammonia,
Silicates, Avoiding
Algae Problems in Marine System,
Nutrient Control and Export,
Algae Control, Marine
Maintenance, Alkalinity, Chemical
Filtrants,
|
Mmm, prevention... biological uptake/harvest (macro-algae,
maybe micro-, photosynthetic and chemoautotrophic life/metabolism...
Dilution through water change... and Chemical means... precipitation,
insolubilization, ad- absorption... |
phosphate
control – 10/10/08
Hi Bob,
<David>
I am moving towards a refugium and or deep sand bed for the grow out system in
the clown house. I have a few questions though. I have 2 items that I need to
address in regards to filtration for the grow out system. I am wanting to get
these issues resolved before I add a whole bunch more fish to this system which
is going to happen in the near term as I have 5 different clowns that are now
spawning (well 4 as the ocellaris are on vacation) . I am still having an algae
problem that needs to be addressed also.
<Mmm, okay>
The first is
nitrates. I believe that in our conversation while you were here that you had
mentioned that a deep sand bed may be a good addition for the removal of
nitrates versus a commercial denitrator.
<Yes... much more stable, safe...
and good for much more than simply natural denitration>
I have a 29g, 55g, or
possibly a 90g tank that I could use for a deep sand bed. If I remember
correctly you had mentioned running all system flow through the deep sand bed
and then back to the main sump where the skimmer, heater, uv sterilizer, etc. .
was housed. I'll try to bullet the questions to make it easier to answer.
If
I use the 55g tank then we are talking about a few hundred pounds of sand to
make a 9-10" DSB (I thought you had said 9"-10")?
<Yes>
Do I need you use
varying sizes of sands at different depths?
<Mmm, no... better IMO to just
use one grade... of very/quite fine oolithic sand>
Would pumping a certain
amount of water from the sump through the DSB and back to the sump work as well
if I didn't want to change the drain and supply plumbing right away?
<Mmm, I
would NOT do this pumping back and forth... I would ONLY rely on gravity in
going/coming one way or t'other>
The second issue I think may be a cause of
the excess algae along with the nitrates is Phosphates. I do approx. 25-30%
water changes in the grow out system twice a month and the phosphates are still
vary high (2-3ppm).
Is there a good way to deal with phosphates naturally
without a bunch of chemicals?
<Yes... the purposeful culture of organisms
(likely macro algae) that will readily absorb these (and much more again)...
Gracilaria, Chaetomorpha are two present fave genera here>
Would adding macro
algae's to the deep sand bed we worth the effort. Ex Chaeto, Caulerpa or others
and making this more of a refugium/DSB?
<I would NOT use the genus
Caulerpa... the other algae, some nominal lighting... perhaps dividing the area
into two sections, lighting one side then the other alternating... such that
some light is on all the time... would be my choice>
Obviously as this system
grows it will consume more time and the more simplified I can make the
maintenance the better. It does get old continuously scraping the glass... Am I
heading in the right direction?
<IMO/E yes... the use of aluminum, iron-based
contactors, resin-type filtrants is expensive, hard to regulate, and really
unnecessary. Go the biological route here David>
Other than those two issues,
I think that adding Ozone and the new larger skimmer is helping. Just want to
keep moving forward.
<I understand>
I have the picture to send to you for
you autograph. Should I send it to your house in San Diego? I have the address
if that is the best place to send it.
<Yes, here in SD: 8586 Menkar Rd., San
Diego, CA 92126>
Thanks,
Dave Durr
<Be chatting, Bob Fenner>
Mud bed vs. DSB vs. bare bottom
8/31/08
Refugium Confusion...
Dear crew,
<Scott F. your Crew member tonight!>
I am in the process of changing things around for my 210 g FOWLR (putting a
larger skimmer in a sump, replacing my 2 Remora hang-ons).
My specific question is regarding my refugium. It's been in use for 3 years with
a mud bed. In that time I've had a constant battle with hair algae in my main
tank, can't get coralline to take over and I swear my tank always has a slight
green tint. However, my fish have never been healthier. In the past I've always
had problems with lateral line disease on certain fish. I have a blue hippo tang
that I've had for the last 3 years who is beautiful without a mark on him.
<Interesting...Seems a lot like what I've heard in the ads for Eco System
Miracle Mud!>
I have a suspicion that the mud has been a contributing factor to the phosphates
and hydrogen sulfide.
<A possibility, although phosphates often come from food and source water, and
can be reduced, or even eliminated via use of water pre-treatment (RO/DI) and
good protein skimming. On the other hand, hydrogen sulfide could be coming from
a disturbance in the deep mud bed>
What are most aquarists doing now for their refugiums? Using mud, sand or
nothing at all?
<Wow...hard to say. So many different ways to go. It depends on what you're
trying to accomplish. If your goal is to grow macroalgae, such as Chaetomorpha,
you may be able to get away without any substrate at all. On the other hand,
many hobbyists are taking advantage of their refugiums to run a supplemental
deep sand bed. I've even seen hobbyists use their refugia for seagrasses-an
interesting and attractive concept.>
Today I'm emptying my refugium to put in my new sump and refugium set-up. I
don't know whether to keep the mud or not. I have Chaetomorpha, Caulerpa, and 2
mangroves growing as well as some live rock and assorted other
inhabitants. Thanks for your input.
Jeff
<I'd try some of the other controls for phosphate mentioned above first, before
tearing out your mud bed. I would, however, properly dispose of the Caulerpa, as
it has some real drawbacks. You'll find that the Chaetomorpha is a far better
nutrient export vehicle than Caulerpa, and has none of the drawbacks (ie;
potential to release gametes, possible toxicity to corals, and super aggressive
growth). If harvested regularly, you can achieve tremendous nutrient export with
Chaetomorpha. In the end, configure your refugium to do what you want it to do
(ie; provide nutrient export, create a safe haven for larval fishes,
supplemental food production, etc.) and you will be happier overall with your
results. Hope this helps! Regards, Scott F.>
Kalk, Skimmer and Phosphate
Precipitation Questions – 08/27/08
Hi Gang,
<<Hello X>>
First many thanks for the incredible resource you guys provide for us!
<<On behalf of the Crew…you’re quite welcome>>
I have an 850 gallon tank, 240 gallon sump and a 150 gallon refugium.
<<Very nice… And I with my 375g tank, 75g sump, and 55g refugium am quite
envious. Though I must confess obtaining a larger system would entail having to
give up a spouse. Okay, sorry…back with the program>>
I have been reef keeping for over 10 years and the more I learn the less I
realize I know.
<<I do understand… I’ve been in the hobby for more than three decades, with the
last two being devoted entirely to reef keeping. And for me, I don’t think I
“really” started to learn until I started trying to help others>>
I battle with phosphates in the aquarium from the fish load and feedings
(Salifert tests between 0.1 and 0.5).
<<I see… I’m a BIG believer in feeding your fishes, and even “the tank” for that
matter…but water quality must be maintained/not suffer. If ancillary filtration
is sufficient then perhaps your fish load is just too much? As for the Phosphate
readings, how does your tank respond re? Phosphate is “required” by all living
organisms; and though these readings are higher than generally recommended for a
reef system…how is the tank taking them? Does it suffer nuisance algae
outbreaks? …loss of coral growth? …loss of color? If not, then perhaps you
needn’t worry re the Phosphate level. I’m not saying that a reading of 0.5ppm
shouldn’t be deleterious; but to allow for possible inaccuracies in the test kit
or even your testing methods, let the condition of the tank rule your actions>>
I have been toying with the idea of raising my pH to get phosphates to
precipitate to some degree to help "bridge" the phosphate gap between water
changes.
<<Okay… There are some other avenues to explore as well like macroalgae in the
refugium and chemical Phosphate remover such as one of the iron-based products
or Poly-Filter pads…though the chemical removal option would be quite expensive
in a system as large as yours>>
The idea I have been thinking is this: I will drip in Kalk water with a vacuum
pump (Tom brand) that is controlled by my Neptune controller at a set point of
8.5 to "hold" the pH high enough to precipitate the phosphates.
<<Okay…and once reached, this should immediately precipitate Phosphate. Though
do be aware that suddenly reducing the Phosphate level of the “system” to zero
may also harm your corals. In fact, I such reductions of phosphate may do
“instant and permanent harm.” This may be held up by the anecdotal accounts of
coral bleaching and/or necrotic events by those using/overusing the very
efficient iron-based Phosphate removers…which sometimes continue even after
removal of the media from the system>>
Is this safe to hold pH that high on a "permanent" basis?
<<I have heard of it being done for several weeks at a time to combat certain
stubborn nuisance algae strains (e.g. - Bryopsis), but as a “permanent” solution
it may not be desirable, nor do I think it is necessary. Merely adding the
Kalkwasser to help maintain a lower pH and/or facilitate Calcium replenishment
will precipitate Phosphate from exposure to the extremely high pH of the
solution in the area of introduction>>
Is 8.5 high enough?
<<Should be>>
Is it best to send the Kalk down the drain that feeds my skimmer directly for
reasons of saponification?
<<You could…though saponification will still occur if you don’t, in the area of
introduction. But I would not/choose not to do this for reasons of reducing the
Calcium deposits on the moving/friction heated parts of the skimmer pump(s).
It’s up to you, but I let Kalkwasser enter my system at my refugium where is
then gravity feeds (a bit more “diluted”) to the pump chamber of my sump>>
This one (of (3) 1.5 drains) drain only goes from the overflow box to the
skimmer (A-300 H&S) then into the sump, or is dripping it anywhere in the sump
just as good?
<<Anywhere in the system will suffice… As stated, I prefer to introduce the
mixture to my “pump less” refugium>>
Is this a decent/good method for helping keep the phosphates under control long
term?
<<I think that depends on who you ask. Some may tout this as a big
advantage/argument for dosing Kalkwasser…but I have come to believe it is of
limited utility re Phosphate control. The biggest problem is this method does
not “remove” Phosphate from the system and the “stored” Phosphate can be
reintroduced in a soluble form by changes in water chemistry and maybe even by
some bacterial/biological activities. Better by far to remove excess Phosphate
when possible. The “safest” method is likely export via harvesting macroalgae
from the refugium, though this is also probably the slowest means requiring a
large amount of material to be removed to have an impact if levels are very
high. If levels are such as to be dangerous/deleterious to the system then
“judicious” use of a chemical media, along with careful monitoring/testing may
be best>>
I have searched and have not found a whole lot of info that details this idea.
If I use the Kalk to keep pH up will it become too much calcium for the tank (I
will obviously test to see long term results)?
<<That depends on the Calcium demands of your system…but will be evidenced by
your testing>>
I have ran a "trial" run doing what I stated above and it seems that I need to
drip in about 3-5 gallons of Kalk a day to keep the pH this high. Is that too
much daily?
<<That remains to be seen as well. It really only becomes “too much” when it
elevates pH to dangerous levels, elevates Calcium to exceedingly high levels
presenting a danger of spontaneous precipitation of bio-mineral and alkaline
content, strips Magnesium from the system (you will need to monitor/supplement
as necessary), or exceeds the evaporation rate of the system causing dilution
and lowering of Salinity>>
I have a MTC ProCal reactor that for the most part keeps up with calcium/Alk
demands although the more stonies I add the more it requires from the reactor to
the point that I now need to start dosing some extra calcium (thus the need for
the Kalk).
<<Ah…okay>>
So I am hoping to kill 2 birds with one stone here. Please if you have any links
that can provide any additional info would be great.
Thanks!
<<If you haven’t already, do have a look here and among the associated links in
blue at the top of the page:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/po4faqs.htm .
Regards, EricR>>
Vodka Dosing – 08/19/08
Hi –
<<Hello>>
I've searched your site and a few others and read some interesting articles
about the concept of vodka or ethanol dosing to reduce/eliminate Nitrate and
Phosphate in reef tanks.
<<Indeed>>
Most of it was fairly dated however and I was curious as to whether the idea
still has currency.
<<Possibly, with caveats… Firstly, this methodology is not without danger...the
right combination of circumstances can be catastrophic (I speak from
experience). Secondly, this method only treats the symptom and is not a cure-all
for what ails your system re buildup of nitrogenous/organic compounds. Are you
aware of how this method works? The premise is the addition of a concentrated
form of carbon (Vodka/ethanol) provides a food source that promotes the
artificially high production of certain strains of bacteria for a limited period
(until the carbon/food source is depleted). Some of these strains of bacteria
have the ability to “double their populations every 20-minutes.” As this mostly
aerobic bacteria population grows, along with the carbon source, excess
nutrients are also oxidized. As implied by the name, this process is driven by
oxygen consumed by the bacteria to drive their metabolisms…and therein lays the
greatest danger in my opinion. Coupled with the wrong conditions (already low
oxygen levels from overstocking, inadequate water movement, etc.) or unfortunate
circumstance (loss of power/sump pump circulation) the artificially high
bacteria population can rapidly consume all the available oxygen creating a
severe anoxic condition>>
I'm home in the middle of a vacation for a day or two and just tested my
nitrates which are disturbingly high as I had to shut down my skimmer while I've
been gone.
<<Hmm…don’t know what “disturbingly high” is>>
I was thinking that it might be a way to bring them down quickly and give me
time to deal with it when I return home in a week or so.
<<As stated, this method only treats the symptom…and then only briefly. One or
two “doses” before leaving the tank for a week or so will have little overall
impact. I think your system would be much better served here by a canister
filter filled with cut-up Poly-Filter>>
So my questions are: 1) does it work?
<<It can, yes… I have found it especially good for removal of
Cyanobacteria…after determining and attending to the initial cause/source of the
outbreak>>
2) Should I do it in this circumstance?
<<I would not…for reasons already mentioned>>
3) Can you suggest a dosage;
<<Would rather not as I wish to discourage your use of this methodology>>
and 4) are there any risks since I won't be around to monitor anything but the
short term effects?
<<I strongly urge you to find/use a different method to bring down your Nitrates
in this situation. And the obvious…keeping the skimmer running and having
someone check on/feed your system and empty the skimmer while you are gone. A
week is too long to leave your reef system unattended, in my opinion>>
Thank you for taking the time to share your most valuable experience and
expertise.
Eric
<<A pleasure to assist. Eric Russell>>
Ps disturbingly high is around 60-70 ppm
<<Ah…yes indeed. I would confirm the validity of this test (new/different test
kit) and if accurate, determine the reason/fix what is causing such a high
reading…skimmer on or not. Regards, EricR>> Bringing Down The
Phosphate…Understanding Elevated-pH Phosphate Removal Mechanisms – 03/13/08
Hello, Crew.
<<Greetings, Todd>>
While trying to run down the source of my elevated phosphate in my 225 gal fish
and invertebrate system, I would like to bring it down fairly quickly (a
band-aid only, I know).
<<Indeed>>
I have read about the method of raising the pH overnight to precipitate the
phosphate in the Wet Web Media pages, but I'm too big of a weenie to do this.
<<I see… But Todd, you don’t want to raise the pH for the entire display to the
level required to “precipitate” Phosphate, as that would certainly be deadly to
the system. Instead, you would “slowly” elevate and maintain the pH at 8.4 to
maximize the “binding” of Phosphate to the Aragonite surfaces in your tank. This
can be done with Kalkwasser additions, which will also “precipitate” Phosphate
from the water column in the area of locally high pH where the Kalkwasser/
Limewater enter the system. The “binding” of Phosphate to the Aragonite surfaces
is arguably problematic as there is some speculation that if the Calcite
crystals stop growing there is potential for releasing Phosphate. The
“precipitation” of Phosphate in the water column may be less problematic since
the Phosphate might become coated with organics and be removed by the skimmer.
The short-term advantages here for Phosphate removal seem obvious…the long-term
effects could be debated, in my opinion. “Complete removal” of Phosphate from
the system is likely the best answer…as in the use of macroalgae in a refugium
(periodically “pruned” and discarded), the use of reactor with an iron-based
binding agent, etc.>>
Can't such a rapid pH change hurt my fish or inverts?
<<Rapid changes to “anything” in your system can be deleterious, yes>>
I also ran across a Korallin product (P04 minus) which apparently complexes the
phosphate to something that is easily skimmed (I have a pretty aggressive
skimmer running), thereby "exporting" the phosphate through the skimmer. Any
experience with this method?
<<Not personally, but I do have a friend here in town who owns an LFS/Service
business who swears by this stuff. But then, he swears by “everything” he sells
[grin]>>
I worry about what desirable ions it might bind and remove via my skimmer.
<<Indeed…and maybe not so much removal by the skimmer as just outright
precipitation from the water column. The literature seems to indicate the
product may cloud the water…and to keep an eye on KH to prevent a dangerous
drop… Warning flags? Sure… But then this product is likely no more dangerous to
your system than Kalkwasser. Give it a try if you wish. But just like anything
else, use good sense/judgment…and proceed with caution>>
Thanks in advance for your help and thanks for the great web page!
Todd in Montana
<<Happy to share. EricR in SC>>
PO4 Trouble... soln.s
2/5/08
Hello Crew!
<Patrick>
I've recently switched over from a 125 gallon reef setup to a 200 gallon setup
successfully with no losses under your guidance. The old setup had a huge PO4
problem due to the flake food I used to feed the fish. This had caused the rocks
to acquire a green tint to them. During the switch, I transferred the rock to a
huge bin which I kept all the premixed saltwater in for the new tank. There was
no lights over this setup, only a few powerheads and a heater.
<... for?>
Once the new tank was up and running, I noticed the rocks had gained their
white, tan coloration back. I figured the 5 day dark period had gotten rid of
the algae growth.
<Mmm>
I had failed to acknowledge the PO4 that remained in the new water itself.
<Yes>
The new tank has been setup for about 4 weeks now, and I am having trouble with
a brown and green algae film coating the glass, causing me to have to clean it
every other day compared. From talking to other reefers, most people are
reporting only having to do this every week or so.
The green coloration is starting to come back on the rock work and really
beginning to take a toll on the tank aesthetically. I've tried testing the water
for phosphates, but the API test kit I have leaves results inconclusive due to
the fact that it is VERY hard to read. The coral have shown minimal growth
results, and I'm thinking it may be due to the high phosphates.
<And do know that phosphate in a few chemical formats... may not register... as
being readily "bound up", being used here...>
All food entering the tank (frozen mysis, silversides, and DT's oyster eggs) is
thoroughly defrosted and rinsed with RO/DI water before entering the tank.
<Good>
DT's phyto is also fed about once a week. I'm currently running GFO
<For the unfamiliar with this acronym: granular ferric oxide (GFO) or alumina
oxide (AO) are typically employed in fluidized media reactors...>
and no carbon. I have a refugium full of Chaeto and all water changes and top
off is done with RO/DI water. Water parameters are currently:
Ammonia and Nitrite 0
Nitrate < 5
pH 8.2 - 8.4
Ca 420
Alk 11 dKH
Mg 1150
Phosphate ?
Will running the GFO and changing it out every 4 days or so make a dent in the
algae development?
Should I employ more herbivores to combat the development of the algae?
What would be a good way of ridding this algae from the rocks besides light
deprivation (there are already corals in the tank)
<... Competition, anaerobic binding, export through macro-algal culture...>
Thanks again for the help. Your website and advise has always proven helpful.
BTW if you get a chance can you tell Mr. Fenner that I had just picked up his
book and it has made a huge difference in my husbandry... Thanks again.
Patrick in Cali
<Mmm, please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/nutrientcontrol.htm
and the linked files at top... am wanting to hypnotize/sensitize you here... to
the magic and mystery of sump/refugiums... Bob Fenner>
Phosphate – 08/08/07
Good morning,
As always, thank you for your wonderful website and for sharing your amazing
knowledge with us! I just have a quick question.
<Thanks, I will try to help>
I have been battling hair algae, and came to the conclusion that phosphate in my
tap water is fueling the beast. As a result, I have been using bottled RO water
until I have been able to get a Kold-Steril unit up and running. As a result of
switching to RO, the algae has been slowly dying off. (I'm assuming it is, as it
is turning to a light brown color instead of deep green, and it feels like I can
pick it off with much more ease.) In getting the Kold-Steril up and running, I
have been able to reduce phosphates from 1.0 mg/L down to 0.5 mg/L. My question
is this: Is 0.5 mg/L low enough to keep the algae from roaring back once I
switch from bottled RO to the Kold-Steril filtered water?
(I am avoiding using a home RO system because of the obscene waste water, and
buying bottled RO water is quite expensive, and very labor intensive!)
<the problem with RO water and the Kold-Steril kit is TDS. They both have TDS
post filtration and need to go thru a Mixed bed DI resin. If you add a DI unit
onto your output hose of your Kold-steril unit you should have 0 TDS and no
phosphates until the DI resin exhausts. Fortunately these are rechargeable.>
I am in the middle of working with the maker of Kold-Steril to see if I can get
the phosphate lower, but I don't know if that will happen. Any advice you have
is greatly appreciated. (Some have told me to add DI to the Kold-Steril, but
others have said it won't help. Not sure who is correct.)
<The DI will help. I use 2 chambers in a row in my Filtration unit to get better
results. Try adding some phosphate removing resins to the tank filtration also.
Use the iron oxide forms red in color)>
Thank you for your help,
Regards,
<thank you, Rich aka Mr. Firemouth>
Kim
Re: Phosphate 8/9/07
Thank you for your help Rick! It is much appreciated.
<No Problem>
I have one question in response to your email below. I know every situation is
different and it all depends upon each person's tap water, but about how many
gallons of water will it take to exhaust DI resin?
<Every system will have different hardness that affects the life of the resin. I
average about 500g per cartridge with my water. You will have to wait and see.
Also, please buy a TDS meter. They are under $20 USD.>
I'm starting to wonder if I will spend more money in DI resin than I will in
wasted water of an RO unit.
Do you have a preferred brand/company to buy from? I've seen some two stage DI
systems that have refillable (as opposed to recharging) resin.
Sounds like you take the exhausted out, and put in the new resin. Is this
acceptable?
<do a Google search for DI resin refills, this will let you shop comparatively.
Yes, just dump out the old and replace with the new and your good to go! I use
the old resins and old carbon in my flower beds as fertilizer>
Does this resin have a much shorter life, or is it all the same - just different
approaches?
<Purchase "Mixed Bed Resins" and yes they are all pretty much the same. The TDS
meter will tell you when you have exhausted them. The color changing feature of
the resin is not reliable for nutrient control. Once the TDS reading reaches
2ppm I change mine out.>
Thanks again.
Kind Regards,
Kim
<Hope I have helped, Rich aka Mr. Firemouth>
Re: Phosphate - for Rich aka
Mr. Firemouth 8/10/07
Thank you so much Rich. This has been a very big help to me. I have
researched DI, and have one last question.
Could you please compare/contrast for me the following?
1. A basic two stage DI with re-fillable mixed bed resin, such as
http://www.thefilterguys.biz/di_systems.htm
2. A three stage DI with refillable cation and anion resins such as Kent Marine
Deion 200-R
http://www.kentmarine.com/waterfilters/deionizers/deion-200r.htm
(I would not attempt to re-charge here......just replace)
Obviously there is a big price difference between the two, but if the Kent
system will produce better quality water, or all else equal - have longer
lasting resins, then it may be worth the upfront cost. I just don't know.
Any thoughts you have are GREATLY appreciated.
Thank you for your patience,
Regards,
Kim
<I am unsure about listing companies by name in the FAQ's, so BobF please
moderate if necessary. I purchased my 7 stage RO/DI unit from the filter guys
and they are a great bunch of guys. I reviewed the prices of each unit. The 3
stage unit would back up a KOLD-Steril unit well, but may be overkill. I own the
Tsunami unit from Filterguys. A dependable product and will serve the same
purpose. For resin replacement do a search for DI RESIN BULK, it will save some
money annually. HTH, Rich aka Mr. Firemouth>
Re: Phosphate - for Rich aka
Mr. Firemouth 8/25/07
Hi Rich,
I'm attaching our correspondence below since it has been a while. Since we have
written, I decided to purchase a TDS meter before moving forward with buying a
DI system. My tap water runs about 190 ppm TDS. Water coming out of the Kold
Steril unit is not much different. (I don't know if that is normal or not.)
Since my TDS is high, I'm second guessing my thought of adding DI to the Kold
Steril, and just going right to RO/DI instead. (Kold Steril has been nothing but
trouble since day one for me.) It seems to me that with the high TDS, I will
blow through DI resin very quickly. Is that a correct assumption? If so, it
seems to me that the cost of wasted water of a RO/DI system will be comparable,
if not cheaper than the cost of replacing DI resin so frequently.
Thoughts here? RO/DI is my best option - isn't it? (Even though it kills me that
the $325 Kold Steril unit was one HUGE waste of money.)
Regards,
Kim
<Kim, sorry you have not experienced the outcome you were looking for. The
Kold-Steril unit IMO is great for Freshwater fish rooms, but because of the
issues TDS have in Saltwater reef tanks, I agree you have purchased the wrong
unit. Please revisit my recommendations for "The Filter Guys" and with any RO/DI
system if you tap water PSI is below 60 then buy the recommended booster pump.
The boosted pressure will make the unit more efficient and produce more water a
day which means less waste water. I also prefer Warner Marines phoSar for
phosphate removal.>
<Thanks Rich aka Mr. Firemouth>
Enhancing Nutrient Export Processes - 03/05/06
Hello,
<Hi there! Scott F. here today!>
I currently have a 90 gallon salt water tank. We have live sand and about 70lbs
of live rock in our tank. We have an Eel, Trigger Fish, Grouper, Lionfish, and
an Angel.
<Quite a crowd for a modest sized tank. I hope larger quarters are in the near
future for this bunch?>
We are having a serious problem of phosphates.
<Ahh...that can be solved.>
We are getting a reading of 4-6 depending on the week. We been doing a 20
gallon water change every week, we cut back on food and made sure it was all
being eaten. We feed them flake and frozen silversides. We have a skimmer along
with bio balls. I am trying to find out the cause of my phosphate problem. I
been told many different things and I don't know where to start. I was told
live rock can cause phosphates then someone told me that since it is cured it
can not. Somebody then told me it was my sand, but I have 4 inches of live
sand. I am getting frustrated because I can not figure out what my cause of
phosphates is. Can you please help me? I would appreciate it. Thanks
Karrie
<Well, Karrie- you are embracing some aspects of nutrient control/export, which
will serve you well in reducing the phosphate, but you need to continue with
some other steps. First, in my opinion, your aquarium is quite overcrowded. Even
though you are maintaining a commendable water change schedule, the fact is that
these fish are producing copious amounts of metabolic wastes that can severely
compromise water quality. One of the first things you should do is to
substantially reduce the bioload in this tank. Feeding of just about any kind of
food will add some phosphates to the water. When you feed foods like
Silversides, they are pretty "messy", and can release lots of processing and
other "juices" into the water, which are very rich in phosphate. Pre-rinsing
frozen foods before feeding, and avoiding simply dumping the foods in the tank
can go a long way towards reducing phosphates. Live rock can have materials in
it that become (or more correctly, accumulate) phosphate sources over time.
However, live rock in and of itself is not your likely source. Do be careful to
siphon visible detritus from the rock and other parts of the substrate. Finally,
keep at it with the skimming and utilize chemical filtration media (activated
carbon/PolyFilter) as a supplement to you other efforts. Reducing the
population, continued water changes, aggressive protein skimming, and good
feeding habits will all contribute to the defeat of this problem. Good luck!
Regards, Scott F.>
Phosphate removal - 03/11/2006
Hi Crew,
I have a 180g FOWLR, the tank has been in existence for 5 years but I
recently added 150 lbs of LR in Sept 2005. I have a large emperor angel,
majestic angel,
<I would stick with just one large pomacanthid in this size system... even it
will outgrow a 180>
Foxface, Heniochus angel,
<Butterfly>
a damsel, and three medium size clowns. About 20-30 snails, 4 skunk cleaner
shrimp, 20-30 hermits and one neon goby. I have various anemone mushrooms all
doing great and dividing. Lighting 320 w actinic white and 60 w actinic 12 hrs
daily. Two skimmers one EuroReef RS 135 and AquaC EV180. Nitrates 25 ppm.
<Mmm, would be better to get/keep this lower>
I have 2 wet dry filters and between the main pumps and the powerheads in the
tank I move ~ 2200 gal/ hour. ( For those wondering why 2 skimmers, these were
the largest skimmers that I could fit under this tank, and the addition of the
Euroreef to the existing Aqua C DID make a huge difference... Nitrates now stay
at 25 PPM even with once monthly 25% water change )
<Please read on WWM re nitrate avoidance...>
I also run a 57w UV.
When I initially added the rock I noted that the tank went thru a period of
time where it was growing some Cyanobacteria.
<Very common>
Now that the coralline algae has gone a long way to establish itself the amount
of Cyano is minimal. I initially used PhosBan and brought my phosphates down to
barely detectable. Over the past month my third batch of PhosBan has exhausted
and my phosphates are again on the rise. Should I continue using the PhosBan ?
<One approach... where might you read re others?>
It would be no problem for me to do so, but is it really necessary, or better
? The system is really humming at this point.
Thanks Jimmy
<Keep reading Jimmy. Bob Fenner>
Phosguard and SPS coral - 5/18/2006
Hey everyone,
<Hello Marc>
Just a question about some information I received from a local LFS. The guy told
me that the continued use of Phosguard (by SeaChem) will slow the rate of growth
of my SPS corals. Have you heard this before or had any experience with it and
have you found any other 'chemical' absorption media or the like that can be an
issue with corals???
<Marc, the SeaChem Phosguard is aluminum based and extended use can release
potentially toxic aluminum into your tank. There are phosphate removing
products that are not aluminum based and safe to use. One such product is ROWA
phos.>
Thanks
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Marc
Kalk skimmer injection / Phosphate removal? 1/18/07
Crew-
<Craig.>
Just doing some reading in the Marine Reef Aquarium Handbook
by Dr. Robert J. Goldstein <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/002-2180612-6836823?%5Fencoding=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books&field-author=Dr.%20Robert%20J.%20Goldstein>
:
http://www.amazon.com/Marine-Aquarium-Handbook-Complete-Owners/dp/0812095987.
Excellent book. The author suggests running the Kalk drip line directly into the
skimmer injector, as this process precipitates phosphate in the skimmer
effluent.
<This is talked about in circles every now and then, and usually results in
someone reminding the others that there is no direct removal of phosphates.
Phosphates themselves aren't surfactants. They are the eventual result of
dissolved organic compounds that eventually form the in-organic phosphates that
algae and other forms of life utilize.>
The author claims this method is several hundred times more effective than other
methods.
<Have not read this one... Maybe Bob would like to add a double-bracket to this
one... but I think the normal dosing of Kalk is still very beneficial to
skimmate production.> <<Agreed on this last. RMF. I don't think the mixing
here can/will result in the stated "hundred times" improvement in PO4
precipitation... but would experiment re>>
This book has largely been mostly dead-on in its material and independently
verified by a triangulation of numerous other sources. Can we verify this
tactic?
<We? ...or you? I think that would be a great experiment for you. I am currently
involved in the development stages of a very exciting project with biotelemetry
supplementation with Rick Oellers that takes most of my critical thinking time.
I recommend it!>
Additionally, can anyone describe the precipitated phosphate? Running the drip
line into my skimmer does produce considerably more skimmate, but the effluent
appears white and I am wondering if I am just skimming particulate calcium
carbonate suspended in the solution. Need/want pictures of what I am talking
about?
<No need, I know exactly what you are referring to. Am not sure about actual
composition of skimmate with this characteristic, but if you do some searching
on "saponification" you will better understand how Kalk and skimmers work
together. HTH
-Graham T.>
cj
Phosphate Levels
Hi - I was wondering if you could briefly explain phosphate levels and how to
control them.
<You would be better of reading our coverage on www.WetWebMedia.com. This is
a rather large question that cannot be answer briefly in an email. The simple
answer is to control their input into the tank, i.e.. use purified water and not
overfeed.>
I have been constantly having problem with diatoms (brown growth mainly on the
glass). I explained this to my LFS and they said I should test phosphate.
<More likely high silicates (new tank?) or heavy handed use of iodine.>
As it turns out it is .08 which indicates as Coral Growth Retarded (too high).
What can I do the control this other than water changes (I change about 8
gallons every 7 days in a 72 gallon tank with 25 soft and 10 SPS corals which
all very small-propagated tank raised corals).
<General nutrient control measures; careful feeding, use of purified water,
good/high quality/clean salt mix, aggressive nutrient export, etc.>
My tank has a Kent Nautilus protein skimmer and Kent Biorocker. It also has a
260 watt power compact which I am in the process of replacing with a 380 watt
VHO hood. I am not sure if stronger lighting may make my Phosphate situation
worse.
<It may given you even more algae troubles.>
Please let me know. Also, one other quick question. Today for the first time I
noticed a strong odor coming from my tank when I went to do a water change. It
smelled like rotten eggs when I removed the glass lids. It wasn't over whelming
but noticeable.
<I have occasionally noticed a smell coming from growth on the glass covers.
Do see if that is your origin of the smell. Otherwise, you may have some real
problems appearing soon.>
Again all my levels are good except phosphates. Thanks Ron
<You are welcome. -Steven Pro>
Phosphate question and skimming
Anthony & Crew- Anthony helped me last time with
drilling overflows in my new tank. I just ordered by 215 with six 1"
overflows This tank is going to rock! Thanks again Mr. Calfo.
<excellent, bubba><<One inchers? Nah! RMF>>
I am now writing about my 20 gallon tank that has a bad outbreak of green hair
algae.
<almost always nutrient driven. I would be surprised if you said you skimmer
has been giving you even 3 full cups of skimmate weekly, let alone daily
skimmate>
I know it had to do with a old DI cartage that I have replaced.
<weak argument... true that source water can impart measurable nutrients that
feed algae... but it never compares to the nutrients imported from daily/weekly
feeding... poor skimming... weak water change schedule, etc>
Also with nutrients in the water. I just replaced my PC lights and started using
a phosphate sponge.
<hmmm... OK. Treating the symptom though and not the problem, rather>
No refugium or skimmer.
<Ahem...>
I know I should have both but I had to knock down a wall and use a garage for my
new tank, I really have no room for a sump or refugium with this tank.
<Tunze has a tiny top mount skimmer that firs discreetly on any aquarium
($120)... Aqua-C has the slimmest HOT skimmer on the market (that works well!)..
The Remora ($160)... no refugium, sump or demolition crew needed. Just a
skimmer>
It has to go when the new tank is up and running so I don't want to sink the
money into that right now.
<my advice would be to not buy any livestock until you get a skimmer. Let the
next $150 you spend be in plastic, not life forms>
My question is about something I read on one of the message boards. I read that
if you take all of the phosphates from the water with the new DI and sponge
there is still phosphates in the hair algae itself.
<most all algae... some more than others. True>
That when I pull out the hair it will release phosphates into the water which
will feed the hair left behind, Is that true?
<sort of... why not starve it into submission by skimming... or... let a
natural herbivore (urchins are killer for this) turn it into fecal pellets that
a skimmer can export. Algae will be gone in two weeks with a good skimmer
(adjusted properly)>
I am going to add some macro algae in to the main tank and see if that will
help. Am I on the right path? Thank you again for your
time! Josh **Will you ever
come to Hawaii (Maui) sometime this year??**
<the crew is talking about it very seriously... I'm guessing in the second
half of the year if so. Looking forward to it! Anthony>
Phosphate in Fish Only
Hi folks,
<Right back at you, Don here>
Moved to a new town.... City tap is all good, yet high O-phosphate..1.08mg/l.
For a fish only marine ...110g is RO going to be a necessity and if so , why?
Other friends in the area are running without it. I anticipate getting one for
my reef but that is a year down the road....NEED FISH NOW! But little cash for
RO/DI unit... Any thoughts would be helpful. As I said all other parameters on
tap come up clean!
<Phosphate will act as nutrient for algae. Many kinds of 'sponges' available
to remove it, or if algae does not become a problem, just live with it>
Marine Philodendrons?
Hi,
Have you ever heard of a method where a plant with outside roots (Philodendron)
is used to extract nitrates and phosphates from water? The plant is placed above
the aquarium and its roots are dipped in aquarium water... this is quite popular
with Discus owners. I wonder if this would work with saltwater, too. I.e. will
the Philodendron not get damaged if its roots are dipped in salt water?
Thanks,
Luke
<Good idea... but one would have to use salt-loving plants (called Halophytes
in science), not plants that can utilize only fresh. Bob Fenner>
Marine Philodendrons?
> Hi,
> Have you ever heard of a method where a plant with outside roots
(Philodendron) is used to extract nitrates and phosphates from water? The
plant is placed above the aquarium and its roots are dipped in aquarium
water... this is quite popular with Discus owners. I wonder if this would
work with saltwater, too. I.e. will the Philodendron not get damaged if its
roots are dipped in salt water?
> Thanks,
> Luke
> <Good idea... but one would have to use salt-loving plants (called
Halophytes in science), not plants that can utilize only fresh. Bob Fenner>
Are they widely available fro purchase?
<Have not seen such plants offered for sale per se, but have seen experiments
(e.g. with Spartina foliosa) for this function>
Is there a particular species that
has roots like Philodendron that could be submersed into saltwater tank?
<Take a read at a large library near you (please see here re such searches: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/litsrchart.htm
or try your internet search engines with terms like "halophyte",
"salt-loving plants". Bob Fenner>
Thank you,
Luke
Phosphate solutions 7/31/03
Hi Anthony, I need your opinion.
<my pleasure>
My problem is my phosphates level: 2mg/l.
<wow!>
I know right approach is identifying where my phosphates are being imported from
(source water, foods, etc) and screen it there first (better prefiltered FW,
change of food, etc) and using specialized chemical filtrants to remove
phosphates treat the symptom (phosphate) and not the problem
<yes... correct my friend>
but I've checked my RO water is phos free.
<do check the foods you are using... soak them in water and test for
phosphate before and after to see which one if any is especially contributory.
Do the same for other aspects of the system until you identify the source (live
sand sample, live rock sample, etc)>
What can you tell me about ROWAphos?
<it has a very good reputation but is again treating only the symptom and not
the problem>
Hi I'd like to know if 2 litres of Rowaphos are enough to reduce to 0.1 my PO4
level in my tank and how long they can last in your opinion.
<I have little personal experience with this product alas... do seek a
consensus form the big message boards like reefcentral.com here>
I think to put them in my internal box filter which have 3500 (real it will be
2500) litres flow rate.
<I suspect this will be very helpful indeed>
I'll put some Caulerpa too for helping to reduce phosphates.
<do consider a safer and more stable macroalgae like Chaetomorpha, Ochtodes
or Gracilaria for this purpose>
What do you think about and what do you suggest? Thanks
Lorenzo
<kind regards, Anthony>
Media sans phosphates please
Hello!! Sorry to bother you guys with this newbie question. I will make
this real easy and short. My first question is:
1) Can you name a few carbon media that will not leach phosphate? << I think
most carbon media is the same, but I use Black Diamond made by Marineland >>
2) Can you name a few phosphate remover media that will not leach
phosphate? << All phosphate removers can leach phosphate, after they absorb
it. However, they absorb far more than they will leach. Basically when it
turns from a white color to a tan color, it is probably "used up" and should be
replaced. Hope that helps. >>
Thanks!!! << Adam Blundell >>
Super High Phosphates
I have a 55gal fish only tank with 30lbs of live sand and 60lbs of live rock. Recently our power was out for over four days. Since it came back on my Phosphates are very high at over 10ppm. I was wondering what's the best way to get them back down to
a safe level? Does Phosphate removing media work?
<Hello Kristen. Yes the phosphate removers do work but you need to check them again after two weeks to make sure the phosphate remover isn't exhausted.>
Should I get some Macro Algae? (I can pick up some Caulerpa pretty easily) and how much do I need?
<Yes, Caulerpa will use the phosphates, a couple clumps will do, it will soon spread and also help prevent nuisance algae growth.>
Should I do a couple of big water changes? Or just more frequent small ones?
<You should always do a 10% change weekly for the overall health of your tank.>
Lastly, will the high Phosphates hurt my fish? (Domino Damsel, Maroon Clown, Princess Damsel, Black Damsel, Red Scat, 3 Black Mollies, and a Marigold Sailfin Molly) I've been told very high Phosphates will stress the fish and make
them more susceptible to disease. Is this true? <No need to worry. James (Salty Dog).>
Thanks again for all your help, Kristen
High Phosphates
First I would like to say hello to everyone at WetWebMedia
<Welcome>
My name is Mike, I have a 150gal fish only tank which has been up and running for about 2 years. My livestock seems to do very well, except for off and on bouts of parasites which seemed to be enhanced by my Powder Blues vulnerability to contract marine ick. After about a year of going mental trying to pacify this pretty fish with copper treatments, I reluctantly decided to sell him back to my local fish store where I purchased him. I'm telling you this just to let you know that there is some copper left in my water at this time. I haven't seen any signs of ick for months, hopefully that will not be a issue for a while for I'm not planning to add any
more fish to the tank until I get rid of the copper in my system, and load my tank with live rock. However this brings us to jest of my problem (so) which I'm seeking your advice for. ( Which would be my phosphate/ slime problem.)
<Mmm, okay... am sure you're aware of chemical filtrants to absorb the copper...>
The problem I'm having is driving me nuts since I am very strict with my maintenance program (cleaning skimmer, water changes, etc.), one thing that I read in your book that sticks in my
head is that aquariums are nothing more than a glorified septic tank, and I feel that my fish deserve the best that modern
technology and my finances will allow. I don't think this is a feeding problem because the algae will start to go away to the point where my rocks are almost clear, then I do a water change and bingo within
a week it starts to come back. Sounds like a water problem right?
<Not necessarily... where else?...>
Well let me give the list of specs, and you can hopefully give me a very very simple solution that might solve my $3500.00 eye-sore in the middle of my house, Which I refuse to give up on until
it is loaded with pretty live rock and good coralline algae.
SPECS
Tank 150gal
Sump 50gal
Skimmer Aqua C adequate size
Mag Drive 1800gal hr
Power Heads 4- 802 in corners at bottom
Lights 200 Watt Power Compact / 2- 60 watt on 12 hr a day
Natural Light Tank sits in middle of room one side exposed to lots of sunlight
Salt Mix - Instant ocean
Water - R/O D/I
Water Changes - 35 gal every 7-10 days
Food
1/3 plastic spoon brine shrimp
1-1/2 rounded plastic spoon frozen Formula 1or 2 (1 time day)
Vitamins - Boyd's on food
LIVESTOCK
1 - Emperor Angle 7"
1 - Sailfin Tang 4-1/2"
1 - Fox Face 6"
1 - Convict Tang 3-1/2"
1 - Heniochus Butterfly 4"
1 - Flame Hawk 2"
1 - Skunk Clown 2"
1 - Anemone Clown 2"
1 - Half Orange Blenny 2-1/2"
4 - Green Chromis 2"
pH 8.0 - 8.2
Phosphates tested with Red Sea test kit around 1.0ppm
Tested R/O-D/I water reads .0ppm
Nitrates 20.ppm
Copper .10ppm
Trying Seachem Phos Guard 2 days
Well I hope I didn't forget anything which I'm sure I did, just want to say thanks.( Bob Fenner is a great inspiration to me)
Thanks Mike
<Mike, does sound/read like you're doing most everything "right"... limiting phosphate may serve you well here... I would try at least three avenues... in this order... Try the Kalk(wasser) trick... adding enough to elevate your pH to about 8.6... this will precipitate all soluble phosphate... immediately... and of course, just let time go by and your pH will fall back... Secondly, do make room for some macroalgae in that sump, and set a small light source over it... to be on when your tank lights are off... Thirdly, do consider utilizing some of the fancy schmancy iron-based phosphate chemical filtrant... or just plain
PolyFilter... in your water flow path. Bob Fenner>
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