LR FAQs

FAQs about Live Rock 1

Related Articles: Live Rock, Answering Some LR FAQs by James Fatherree, Live Rock, Reef Systems, Refugiums,

Real live rock... in the Andaman Sea, Thailand.

Live rock in a cold water marine system 11/7/05
Hello crew
<Hi there Patrick>
I kinda have a dumb question if you don't mind; could cured tropical live rock be placed in a cold water marine setup, without affecting the beneficial bacteria?
<Mmm, depends on how much cooler... will subtend metabolism... might create a physiological stop for a time... but usually some will live, prosper a few days, to weeks later>
Thank you for your time, Patrick.
<Cheers, Bob Fenner>

Live Rock Turning White 10/18/05
Hi guys,
<Hey, Mike G with you this evening.>
I have a question about the 79 lbs of Live Rock in my 75 gallon tank, it is turning whitish in color, do you guys know why?
<Coralline die off. Coralline algae is a benign, desirable calcareous algae that grows in profusion in established aquaria and on the reefs of the world. It comes in a vast array of colors, all in the Red-Purple-Orange area. Often, new aquaria do not possess the facilities to properly care for this algae, and it dies off, leaving behind its (white) skeletal remains.>
I had heard that this means that your live rock is dying or decaying, but It has been in there for about 5 weeks and is fully cycled, it was really flourishing until I noticed a few areas of the rock turning white, it isn't all white yet though.... In the tank I have a Neon Goby, 2 ocellaris clowns, 3 blue green chromis, and a twin spot goby, all of the fish are doing great. here are my water parameters:
Nitrate: 10
<Decent.>
Nitrite: 0
Ammonia: 0
pH: 8.3
Salinity: 1.025
<Good.>
Calcium: 350
<Low, could be a factor in the coralline die off.>
Alkalinity: 10
<A bit low.>
Temperature: 80.5
<Fine.>
I just did a 12 gallon water change about 4 days ago, anything else I should be testing, or do you see why this would be happening?
<See above.>
Also, the surface of my water looks like it has oil in it
<Common problem. Get a powerhead to agitate the surface, no real way to prevent it.>
I use RO/DI water for water changes so I don't know why this would be
<Dust, etc. from the air.>
but like I said everything other than the rock is doing great.
<As should be expected.>
Any insights, thoughts, ideas, or actions you tell me to take are greatly appreciated :)
Thanks,
<No problem.>
Clare
<Mike G>

Live rock cycle jumpstart? Foundation equipment - 7/31/05
Hi guys, hope all's been well.
<Hi Jon, Ali here>
I have another question for you. (obviously) I am setting up another tank. It is a 140 gallon with so far a mag 350 and several powerheads, and 150 lbs of Aragamax.
<Is this a reef or a fish only with live rock??>
I will add more filtration, probably a sump soon, I was just trying to get a jump on cycling the tank.
<If you plan on keeping corals, dump the mag 350, add the sump and a heavy duty skimmer. Read up on the Euroreef, AquaC models and invest in a good quality RO/DI water filtration system. Additionally consider having at least a 3-4" sandbed with the Aragamax. To achieve this, 300 pounds of sand will more than likely be needed.>
But, my question is this: I purchased 100lb of live rock, from an online store that I have used many times. I never got an ammonia spike, or any change in ammonia at all for that matter. On previous tanks I was usually off the charts within a day or two. Any advice would be appreciated. I have enjoyed your site for many years, your teams wisdom is impressive.
<You want to jump start your cycle? Why? Stability is extremely important and generally nothing good ever comes from jump starting something in a saltwater aquarium. Add the sand bed, fill your tank up with properly filtered RO/di saltwater, add as much current/circulation as you can, add your live rock and let your tank 'run' with just the sand and rock for a good 2 months at least (keep your lights on no more than 3 to 5 hours a day during this time). Even if your levels appear to read low, maintain the tank for the full two months as stated above. After this time, test your water, and begin adding animals,...slowly. Once again, remember to invest in the skimmer and RO/di filter. These two items shouldn't be looked at as add-ons or upgrades. They should be looked at as foundation equipment, just as important as the main aquarium itself.>
Thanks in advance. Jon
<Good luck Jon! Keep reading/researching and enjoy your new system - Ali>

A Tank Without Live Rock... 7/29/05
Hello Crew,
<Hey there! Scott F. here today!>
I have been searching WWM but can't seem to find an answer to my
specific question. I am in the process of upgrading from a 55G to a 180G tank. About 2 months ago, I bought approx 150 lbs of Fiji liverock from a friend who was moving. I wasn't ready for the new rock yet, but I got it cheap. So it currently is cooking in a Rubbermaid container in my laundry room. My existing tank has about 60 lbs of live rock in it. The new tank has arrived and I am ready to build my aquascape and add water. Here is the issue. I want to use all of the live rock from the old tank as well as the new stuff. Obviously, to do this the old system would be "rock free" for 4-8 weeks while the new tank cycles. Will not having this filtration in place for that length of time be a problem for the livestock which will be left behind? It is
currently equipped with an AquaC Remora Skimmer and a 15W UV Sterilizer; I have mostly mushrooms, leathers, a few LPS, and fish. Would you recommend some sort of alternative filtration during this time frame? As you may suspect, the livestock will be moved to the new tank once it is ready.
Thanks in advance!
Dave
<Well, Dave- this is a neat question. However, in my experience, I have not noticed any significant problems when removing rock for periods of time. As long as you maintain good husbandry habits and observe your fishes carefully, I think that you'll be fine! Best of luck! Regards, Scott F.>

A Follow Up (tank cycle) - 06/29/05
Thanks for the quick replies!
<<My pleasure>>
The remaining Clownfish and Cleaner shrimp are now being babysat at a LFS.
<<Excellent my friend!>>
The ammonia level has gone back down to 0.25 by itself.
<<OK>>
I haven't bought a new test kit yet, because I'm broker than
Michael Jackson at the moment (hey, topical humor is in right now, right?). The kit that I have been using is Aquarium Pharmaceuticals.
<<Do try Seachem or Salifert if you can.>>
In about two weeks I'll have some expendable money, and plan on adding about 30-40 pounds of fresh live rock.
<>
I'm hoping this will add the much needed bacteria.
<<Will add bacteria, yes.>>
I've been receiving a lot of advice for how to run a marine tank lately, and I'm starting to feel more confused than George W. Bush when he reads Curious George (that's cool right?). This has been my plan so far for the filtration: the 120 gallon tank with about 150-200 pounds of live rock; a sump with floss and the pumps and skimmer; no wet/dry systems, refugiums, or fancy expensive devices. What's your take on this?
<<Can be done. I would recommend a bit less rock (100-120 lbs) to give fish room to swim/corals room to grow, and skip the floss in the sump.>>
And if it is sound, when would it be safe to introduce livestock again.
<<After adding the new rock?...after ammonia and nitrite fall and stay at zero, and nitrate below 5ppm. Please do have a peek at our FAQs on tank cycling: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/estbiofiltmar.htm>>
Thanks a lot for your help!
Derek
<<Regards, Eric R.>>

"Twice cooked" Live Rock
Hi gang (Bob, James, Steve and Anthony...)
<Anthony>
I read all the Q&A about live rock and didn't find anybody writing you about the same unfortunate/stupid situation
I purchased 30 lbs of Lalo live rock from Drs. Foster & Smith 2 weeks ago and in the process of curing may have cooked it with near 90 degree temps in 2 occasions within the last 3 days. First from a malfunctioning heater and second due to high outdoor temps. Prior to both incidents, the rocks had a lot of die-off in the 1st week. Though the water was clear of ammonia and nitrates and smelling good the day before the mishap. Then after each incident, the rocks had that rotten egg smell.
Here are my questions:
1. Are the rocks still live or mostly dead?
<Likely mostly alive>
2. Are these Lalo live rocks "so nice" to warrant the effort or should I just go to the LFS and buy cured Fiji rock from? I'm setting up a 60g FOWLR and was planning on 60 lbs of Lalo.
<Up to you>
3. How long can my first batch of pets last in a 20g practice/quarantine tank. I have had the following for over 3 weeks now (they're all doing well):
<Keep monitoring water quality, have new water to change out...>
3" coral beauty angel
3" royal Gramma
1.5" true percula
3/4" yellow tail damsels (2)
1.5" skunk cleaner shrimp
I know this is a lot but I wasn't planning on them being there for longer than 2-3 weeks. At the rate I'm going, the 60g tank won't be ready for another 3-4 weeks.
Thanks in advance, Anthony
<... I'd switch the rock out with the fishes... put the LR in the smaller twenty for curing. Bob Fenner>

New Setup, Old Rock
Hello again WWM crew,
<Hi there! Scott F. with you today!>
I have another quick question.
<Ask away!>
Although I have had my tank (55 gal.) for several years, its quality hasn't been all that great. This is partly due to being stubborn, lazy and... lack of funds.
<We can all relate!>
Well, the tank finally crashed a few months ago. The rocks started turning white and most of the fish died except for
two. A hermit crab that I recently bought committed suicide. (YES, the tank was that bad.).
<Yikes!>
Anyway, I cleaned out the tank, rearranged the rocks, bought new equipment (Euro-reef skimmer, Salifert test kits, refractometer, etc) and it has now been running for about a month and a half. All parameters are good. Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrite are showing zero. Calcium, I believe is about 400. pH is 8.2. Not sure about
alkalinity.
<A parameter worth knowing...Do get a decent test kit for alkalinity and monitor regularly.>
Anyway, my question is, do I need to buy a couple of live rocks to
seed my existing rocks with the needed "organisms", or will the few
remaining ones rebound from the bad environment I gave them? Is there an alternative other than buying new rocks?
That is all. Thanks in advance for your answers and keep up the great work. Sincerely,
Aldrin
<Well, Aldrin, some surviving life from the rocks will no doubt re-colonize the system, but you may want to introduce a few pieces of new rock to help "diversify" things a bit. Also, do ask yourself what were the factors that led to the "crash" of the prior tank. It is important to learn from these tragedies to prevent them from happening again. Good luck! Regards, Scott F>

Removing hitch-hikers from live rock
G'day WWMers <Good day to you>
I occasionally add a new chunk of live rock to a well-established fish-only aquarium, partly to play with landscaping and partly to see what crawls out. I recently bought two pieces that were just right for a particular corner but noticed once I got them home that they have extensive infestations of very young [almost invisible] Aiptasia. From past experience I wouldn't even bother trying to remove these little bastards - as far as I'm concerned the only solution is to throw the entire rock away before it spreads.
The problem I have is with the occupants of the live rock. The live rock have some nice little crabs and brittle stars and probably other critters that I'd like to invite into the aquarium. How do I get these little blokes out of the live rock before I throw the rock into the garbage? I have seen their eyes - they are cunning and are faster and smarter than me. Are there any sure-fire ways of luring them out? The crabs I think I can trick with a bottle and some bait, but the stars? Any advice would be appreciated.
This is probably also a good time to thank all of you [and the other question askers too] for a continual stream of excellent advice and information. I know there are at least a dozen little fishies who wouldn't be alive now if I hadn't looked up the answers to my problems on WWM. <The stars should be similar. Once they sense the food, they to will enter the bottle. Best to set the trap in the evening. Good luck. James (Salty Dog)>
Many thanks
Denis

Dead rock, copper...
Hi, okay so about 5 months ago I put copper in my tank without any knowledge of what it would do to live rock. I later found out why my rock is not growing anything on it but algae. So the Fish Guy told me to take it out because when its dead it lets out toxins and I can lay it outside to dry and recure it and put it in my tank once its cured again. Is this true? Will it start growing things again and regain its purpose? Thank you.
-Adam
<Mmm, the copper is likely "all gone"... not practically able to resolubilize... Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/curemovalfaqs.htm
Bob Fenner>

Re: dead rock
Sorry to bother you again, but my question wasn't about copper, it was about whether or not I can reuse my live rock after drying it out in the sun. Thank you.
Adam
<Uhh, same place to read re... On WWM re copper, live rock... Bob Fenner>

Cold Soak For Tropical Live Rock?
Hi Bob,
<Scott F. here today!>
I had a question in regards to liverock. Most wholesalers here in Hayward, California Keep their liverock in the original boxes, Sometimes even for weeks. Is the liverock still good??
<Well, this is certainly not an ideal practice. Weeks could result in much of the desirable life form expiring. The rock will definitely have to go through a curing process to salvage what is left, if anything. Remarkably, a good number of organisms DO survive, but great attention must be paid to the rock during curing to salvage them.>
I need some bad for my new setup and was wondering if all of the life on it has died?
<As above, a significant amount of the life is probably dead, but the rock may be a good "seed" for your system when cured and given the time to colonize new life forms.>
Also, I live in Monterey Peninsula CA. If I buy uncured liverock. Can I take it to the local tide pools and scrub off my live rock their? Will it be ok? The water here in Monterey is pristine.
<And the surf ain't too bad, either!>
But cold.
<Yep...very cold! I would NOT commingle non-native life into local tidepools under any circumstances! Even though we are talking about tropical animals in a temperate environment, it is not ethical or responsible to do this. You risk the (improbable though it may be) chance of contaminating a native ecosystem, not to mention killing what may be left on the live rock. Better to mix up some synthetic sea water of the proper temperature in a nice plastic container to accomplish this!>
Thanks,
Lee
<You're quite welcome! Regards, Scott F.>

Bacteria and old LR
I read one of Bob's postings in which he stated that even under ideal (I assume for the present state of the art) conditions a great deal of all the bacteria that was originally on saltwater live rock will have disappeared after 9 months to a year.
<Mmm, not the bacteria... more the macro-life, surface area, soluble components of use (biominerals)...>
Thus necessitating live rock replacement. Why is that?
<Loss of biodiversity, alkaline reserve... all that goes with these>
The disappearance of the original bacteria that is! Scarcity of their food, bad h2o conditions? Perhaps a lack of a host(s)?
Thanks Much,
Benjamin
<As stated, not microbes as much as other, larger life. Established aquatic systems have plentiful nitrifiers... on all substances... unless these are killed or their metabolism altered... e.g. by chemicals, changes in water quality, competition... Bob Fenner>

LR/S idea Question and Praise
Bob:
<Rick>
I have been a fan for a few years now. I have read your columns, used your advice re: live rock and sand, and had a wonderful reef tank by utilizing your methods and advice (I am a lurker... just reading, using your advice and quietly reaping the benefits ::grinning:: ).
<Sounds good>
I have moved a few times and my old tank was given to a friend back in 2002. I still have the 'bug' (don't we all!) and still find your articles and read them from time-to-time. And enjoy your knowledge as well as your humour. Keep up the good work!
<Will endeavor to do so>
I have an off the wall question for you involving a business idea with live rock/sand and would like to discuss it with you for your take on the matter. I have an opportunity for something unique, or should I say a 'variation on a theme' that may be kind of cool. Please let me know if you would be willing to discuss it with me
<Could we do so on the Net? Time is dear>
Rick Kasparek
West Texas
(in the area of the old Permian Sea... near the extinct Capitan Reef)


Making LR
Bob...
Here in West Texas, in Imperial is a Shrimp Farm that is the first to be certified 'Organic' by the USDA. The gentleman that started the farm is a marine biologist who saw an opportunity to utilize the Permian Sea water that exists underground to raise shrimp. Cool idea and it seems to be working. Seagulls in the desert (how do they know where to find shrimp?)!
<Amazing creatures... how did they get on out to Utah? Flying I guess...>
At any rate I have approached the gentleman and we have a meeting on Saturday to discuss the possibilities of combining what he is doing with the seawater with raising live rock. This shrimp farm is located within what used to be the Capitan Reef (back a few [million] years ago). Fairly close to this area are parts of the reef that are exposed and
fossils of ancient reef critters are exposed.
<Yes>
Are you familiar with Aragocrete from GARF?
<Yes>
The idea is that I might be able to make molds of the fossils, build 'rock' in their shape and charge them with 'life' to produce a 'live' simulated fossil from the Permian Sea - Capitan Reef... grown in Permian Sea water. An oddity perhaps, but with the available sea water in a controlled environment, I figure it may even add nutrients to the shrimps' diet.
<Could be done>
Okay... so much for the off-the-wall idea. I just figured that with all of that salt water just sitting there being used by shrimp, I might be able to tag along and raise captive live rock. Your thoughts thus far?
Regards,
Rick
<I would look into the possibility of using what is there instead of "making" phony cement rock... the "Arago" products are too toxic, cost too much labor and materials to be practical IMO. Some natural carbonaceous material there could likely be made to work however. Bob Fenner>

Re: LR making, tok to LeGuin
Actually that was my first choice... second choice was looking for a 'gimmick' I guess. But nothing wrong with utilizing Live Rock from Capitan Reef. Just wanted your take on it. Thanks!
<The gimmick, hook in my lingo, would/will be the origin... ancient reef, made anew!>
Keep up the good work - I know you will.
Rick
<Thank you my friend. BobF>

Follow UP- Live Rock and Critters within
Thanks again !
You guys should be Wet Web Encyclomedia.
<Neat term>
Just to follow up with ya on the live rock.. Yes, he sold me a hefty
nugget that had sponges, and some other soft duster looking things all
over it, among other things. This new LFS is really cool, and lets me
in the back room, and I get to gawk at all the stuff he is curing, and
he lets me pick out the stuff with the most thingy-ma-bobs on it. If I
can throw a plug in... it's the Aquatic Depot in Berlin CT. :)
<Great to have good dealers>
Once again, THANKS for this service. You guys save us a TON of TIME and
MONEY, and help to avoid, or at least soothe royal headaches !! !!
<Welcome>
John
<Bob Fenner>

When to add live rock and how to do it
Hello.
I am setting up my 420 litres tank (100 gallons ?) with from 4 to 5 in of aragonite sugar size DSB and 130 pounds of Heliopora live rocks. < Sounds good. > At the moment in the tank there is only the DSB for 1,5 month and the live rocks are curing in a separated vessel with powerheads and skimmer. They already have been there for 7-8 weeks but phosphate are still high so I have to wait till PO4 go down. < You will have to grow macro algae or something to remove those phosphates. Otherwise they will never just go down. >
What I ask myself and You is how many time sand has to be let alone in the tank before introducing cured live rocks (2-3-4-5 months ?). < No time at all. You can add live rock right away. I would add right away. > Then I want to know if is important non to lay rock on sand but let them "suspended" over DSB (I think I have to build a structure to rise the rockscape) to let the water gently flow between rock and sand. < Keeping most of the rock off of the sand is a good idea. But you can stack it so that only a few pieces are on the sand. A platform to hold the rock up is a nice addition. > Finally I'd like to know how to take sand clean from what escapes from rock when I put them into the system.
I explain what I mean: When in other tanks of mine I add cured rock they let down detritus or something else. When it occur in tank with no sand or where I/You can aspire there are no problems, but in a DSB system in not allowed to siphoning so all detritus remain in tank and I am scared of decomposition product...< Best thing to do is to have a lot of water movement. This will keep the detritus in the water and not down on the sand. Then your protein skimmer or filters can pull the detritus out of the water. > How can I do to have a quite clean sand? In few words I would be pleasing if you explained to me step by step how to fill up tank with sand (already in) and rock, especially how to obtain clean rock and sand (I mean not shocking bright sand but not an agricultural field). < Well I just fill the tank with about 4 inches of sand before I add water. Then I add the salt water and make sure it is the right temperature. Then I just add my live rock. Wait 3 weeks and then add corals. Wait a few months and then add fish. >
I am sorry for my bad English, < No problem, you write well. Trust me I can't write a single word in Italian. ;) > thank You very much.
Marco Nanni
Italy.
< Blundell >

Feeding Live Rock (4/22/05)
Hey Gang. Love this site.
<Glad you like it. A pleasure for me to play a small part, Steve Allen.>
I searched and searched, but could not find this question.... Or answer. I have a 55 gal FOWLR tank (very few fish) with a bunch of snails and 2 cleaner shrimp. I have recently found a new LFS (new to me anyway) after a bad incident at my previous, who shall remain nameless. ANYWAY, this new store's live rock was jamming with stuff. I'm talking sponges, dusters, polyps, you name it, it was poking out of the rocks...
<It surely is an amazing variety of life one can get from such rock. Will they sell you some as starter?>
My LR has decent Coralline Algae (4 different colors) but it has shown barely a tube worm.
<Perhaps one of your "few fish" ate them. The best way to get a variety of great life on live rock is to leave a tank fishless for several months. If I could do anything over again it would be to leave have left my reef fish-free for 6-9 month. But like everyone else, I was to anxious to add fish.>
Supposedly, my rock is Fiji Rock...
<Much of it in the trade is.>
The new LFS owner tried to get me into an expensive
<The key word!>
cocktail of iodide, and other chemicals, to add to the water to "feed my rock". I have never heard of feeding the "stuff" in Live Rock.
<Clearly, it needs nutrients, but not a bunch of expensive chemicals.>
Does the Reef Crystal salt that I use for water changes do the deed (at least for trace elements)?
<Absolutely the case if you are doing water changes at least twice a month. You can test for the key elements to be sure, and then supplement if needed. If you search WWM under "supplements," you'll find a lot about this subject.>
IF there is a value in feeding LR, to bring out hidden life? Or have I starved it out a few months ago? Or did I get some not-so-live-rock?
<It takes time for it to thrive. I find new stuff on my LR even more than a year after I bought it. Yes, nutrition is useful, but the microbes and algae tend to provide the foundation for this. Remember that virtually all of the calories on the earth started out via photosynthesis and various small molecules. Filter-feeding invertebrates would benefit from feeding with something like frozen Cyclop-eeze. Expensive cocktails of unnamed "trace elements" and "secret ingredients" are not generally needed.>
John M. Mulrooney

Rock Stuff, Don't Send us Messages Like This, Please
Hello
In my 10 gallon nano, I have 14 lbs of Fiji live rock. I've had the rock since Nov. 04when I first got the aquarium. The tank looks very empty. I've tried to add bigger coral but no success. Could I add about 4 to 6 more lbs of live rock. Is this too much. In the book ''The New Marine Aquarium'' it says to not pick rock according to pounds but to fill the aquarium as desired.
<The first is a gross oversimplification>
Also, my toadstool coral has been closed for 2 weeks and is falling sideways. whats the problem. It looks like shedding but it has shed a lot and has never been closed for so long. The water tested perfect. Also, is my Coralife 96 watt 50/50 fixture good for all corals. Are there some I cant keep because of lighting. Can I keep a crocea clam. Finally, is it better to have a glass canopy or none. I went to my LFS and they said that the glass filters out light and direct
light is better. The lights look better without glass.
Thanks
Todd
<Todd... your message is dismally illiterate, and your answers are already posted over and over on WWM. Learn to send properly spelled, grammatically correct messages and read there. Bob Fenner>

Holy Rock Still Eroding
Hi Anthony,
<greetings salty friend>
I haven't noticed any beavers with SCUBA gear, but I thought I saw a moose carrying sandpaper....! ;-) <heheh..>
I don't think I can get a good close-up picture of the rocks, but they look like any other live rock; bumpy, holey, 80% covered with purple coralline algae. The topmost rock has a round hole in the top which was about 3/4" across and is now about 1 1/4" across.
<Over what period of time does the hole expand...this is extraordinary>
My royal Gramma goes in this hole to sleep at night. It also comes out a "back door" and there are some smaller holes that I can now see daylight through and I couldn't before. I had a feather duster worm that I thought was dead (about 3 months ago) so I tried to take it out of the tank...it broke in half because the other end was stuck in a hole in the rock. After a while, I noticed the piece sticking out of the rock was moving! Then it disappeared inside the rock. I haven't seen hide nor feather of it since.
<many abort their gills (the feathers) under stress and regrow them days or weeks later>
In addition to the Gramma, I have a yellowtail blue damsel, two scarlet reef crabs, two turbo snails and two bumble bee snails. I do a one-gallon water change every week, and the only additive I use is calcium. I put in 1/2 a tablespoon twice a week. I use R.O./D.I. water for the changes and for topping up the tank. Water is 80 degrees constantly and SG is 1.023.
<sounds very good overall>
I've included a picture of the tank, I don't know how much you can tell from it, but it's the best I can do. Thanks, Donna
<Donna, keep on the lookout for a small urchin to appear at night and keep us posted... some burrow in rock. kindly, Anthony.

Re: Live Rock question
Hi, it's the pest again,
<no trouble at all!>
No way! Really? An urchin? Better get my flashlight out!
<just a candidate... you have an uncommon situation... I can't think of a common occurrence to otherwise explain it.>
If there is an urchin in there, will it hurt the Gramma?
<certainly not>
Also, what should I do about it if it's in there?
<typically no... but if he is that destructive to change the rockwork in weeks to months, I'd say remove him>
What do you think happened to the worm? Could it still be alive in there?
<remarkably hardy... don't give up yet. give it a few weeks>
I have discovered two new snails, (at least that's what I think they are) they look exactly like snails, about a half inch long now, but without the shell. It looks like they're growing shells now but are still soft. They clean the glass just like the other snails.
<Yes, most likely a Stomatella species... reference a picture. AKA the paper shell snail... very fast moving, right?>
Yesterday, I saw them do the weirdest thing...they were both standing UPRIGHT at the top of the rock and spasmodically spewing tiny white specks into the water above them. The two fish thought this was grand, and chased them around to eat them. I assume they were eggs. You think? :-)
<agreed and wonderful!>
Sorry to keep peppering you with questions, hope you don't mind.
The big hole in the rock expanded over a period of about 4 months.
Thanks again. Donna
<my pleasure, Anthony>

Holy Rock
Hi Robert,
<Donna... Anthony Calfo here in your service while Bob travels in search of the holy grail... or Southern California, whichever comes first>
I have a 15 gallon saltwater tank with 20lbs. of live sand and 13lbs. of live rock. Everything has been fine for the past 6 months, however I have noticed that the live rock seems to be eroding. The holes in the rocks are a lot bigger than they were 6 months ago and I see small pieces of the rocks on the surface of the sand. I assume this is normal,
<very abnormal in such a short period of time! You haven't seen any beavers wearing SCUBA gear in your tank have you? Never mind. Although there are many organisms (sponges, Urchins, worms, etc) that "dissolve" carbonate material (your rock) the process takes many months if not years. I have no logical explanation for what you observe. Would it be possible to e-mail some pictures?>
so should I add another piece or two to the tank?
<usually a wonderful idea... although it may not correct this specific symptom>
Thanks for your help. Donna
<quite welcome. Regards, Anthony>

How much live rock?
Dear Mr. Fenner,
I have a 125 gallon tank that I want to put some live rock in. I was wondering how much live rock do I have to put in.
<Mmm, as much as you want>
I'm not making a reef tank. I just wanted to get the different color schemes that grow on the live rock. I will have all sorts of species of fish in this tank. Will it help with the tank cycling also.
<Oh yes. Please read through the various Live Rock sections posted on our principal site, starting here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/liverock1.htm>
Thanks,
<Be chatting. Bob Fenner>
Richard Corcoran

New tank
Bob I am new to saltwater. I am building a new 135 gallon reef and fish tank, and my local dealer wants $5.00 a lb for Live rock at this price I will be buying it slowly.....
<I'd consider buying it at discount, through e-tailers who have much less cost involved... Please read the Live Rock sections here: and beyond... I'd get a couple or three nominal 45# boxes and cure it myself... for about two dollars a pound>
I will be adding water and salt tomorrow and my emperor 400(I will build a refugium very soon but the 400 for now)...I have 60 lbs of aragonite that I will add also...... on Wednesday or so, I was going to stop and get more sand and some live sand....OK now the question - is it a good idea to save some money by purchasing live rock from ff (I live in so cal small shipping charge for me) and toss it in as soon as it hits my door because my tank is new and can cure in my tank??
<All this covered as above>
Since there will be LR and LS only is this a good idea and if so any things to watch out for??
<Too rapidly accumulating ammonia, nitrite...>
Thanks for helping I love this site I have learned a lot!!!
<Keep studying, planning, building my friend. Bob Fenner>
Joe Grunstad IV

Re: Switching out LR occasionally
I bought some live rock sometime ago and I do have an all fish tank. Was
wondering how I know when the live rock is dead and I need new live rock. Is there someway to know or just a certain amount of time? Is it good to do a 50% water change or should I do 20% now and 20% a couple of days later? I'm trying to lower my Nitrate. If the live rock is dead is it bad to leave in the tank for decor? Thanks
<Please read the following sections on our site re these questions:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/lrfaqs.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/water.htm
Bob Fenner>

Disappearing/dissolving live rock
Hi Bob, I have a 30 gallon reef with about 25 pounds of live rock. The
problem is that the live rock seems to be dissipating. Holes are developing
in the rock and some rock looks like lattice. Some rock is actually half its
original size. any idea? Thanks Jerry.
<Mmm. Well, live rock of carbonate make-up does "disappear" over time, dissolving, being vacuumed out with water changes (it's alkaline in nature, and captive systems tend toward acidity...). But dissolving so fast that you can really tell? Do you know the origin/country, perhaps the collecting/processing company of this rock? Bob Fenner>

Algae culture on new live rock
Hi and good evening, Bob. I still haven't set up my tank because the test kit hasn't arrived yet. But I have put two pieces of rock in a container with sea water in the sun to grow algae on them and later I want to put them back in the tank when it is cycled. Is that a good idea?
<Yes>
I'm reading that almost all reef fish like to pick on algae.
Also, somebody suggested that I put my coral rock in some vinegar for some days to clean it of phosphate. Is that o.k.?
<Hmm, not necessary, or advised>
Should I dilute a bottle of vinegar with water because otherwise I will need about 20 gal of vinegar to cover all rock?
<If you want/ed to use an acid to wash your rock (again, I wouldn't do this) there are inorganic like HCl, hydrochloric, likely sold in 3 molar concentrations as Muriatic Acid (likely for masonry work) in your area... Just use the sun-bleached rock as is.>
Thanks and good night, Bernd Oh. p.s. My LFS has 'Chrysiptera parasema' in stock. Is that a good fish to use as first stock? And if, how many?
<Yes, a good Damsel... not too mean, pretty hardy and pretty all the way around. Wait till your system is cycled completely... about one per twenty gallons. Bob Fenner>

Too much rock?
I have a 65 gallon reef tank with only 4 fish--maroon clown with anemone, yellow watchman goby, African Flameback angel, and a purple tang. The former 2 understandably do not swim around very much, but the latter 2 seem to hide all day.
I see the fish only when I feed. I have A LOT of live rock in my tank though. Are they just indirectly hiding?
<Indirectly? All should come out to some extent... Is there much "activity" around the area, folks walking by during the day? Perhaps a very active "dither-fish" like a hardy Damselfish species would do well to make all more outgoing. Consider A four or three stripe or others: http://wetwebmedia.com/damsels.htm
One that stays smallish>
Or do they just need to be enticed out into the open by more social fish?
<Ah! There you go>
The tank is fully stocked with corals and my cleaning regimen is very pristine. What should I do so I can see more of my fish?
<Try a/the dither fish idea here. Bob Fenner>

Lighting
Hi!
I own a Eclipse System 12 tank. I Have 3 Damsels and some live sand in it. I plan on getting some live rock soon. My question is, how much live rock should I get?
<A few pounds... perhaps ten or so if you can secure same in good, clean, cured condition>
I changed the light to a 13 watt A blue/White bulb, so I don't think there will be a problem keeping the rock alive. Another question, How long should I keep the light on per day?
<Twelve or so hours per day... best done with a timer... can be "punctuated"... i.e. set to be on when you are likely home, around to enjoy your system. Bob Fenner>
Thanks for the information! John

Re: live rock question
Bob-
That's quite a relief, its always strange to see new things appear in the
tanks- somewhat amazing, thanks for your help and knowledge!!! -Joe
<You're welcome my friend. Be chatting. Bob Fenner>

A few quick questions (LR collection impact)
Bob,
As always, thanks for good advice. I have a few quick questions.

1. I've heard of Caulerpa becoming "sexual" and releasing poison. Do I need to worry about this? Can it kill my fish?
<Worry? No... be aware of, yes... can be detected, controlled (careful observation, regular pruning...) Not likely to kill your fish, other livestock given diligence>
2. If I want to mail order live rock, how can I be sure that it wasn't
harvested by destroying the reefs?
<Hmm... in traveling in Florida, the South Pacific... have never seen an instance of "the reef" being impugned (some studies even point to benefits) of damage to reefs from such removal... This material is almost always either cultured (FLA) or extracted from shallow to intertidal regions... more damage to the overall environment from the fuel used to transport it.>
The place you listed on your website
does not sell direct. I assume he is eco-friendly. Who does he sell to?
Flying Fish Express?
<Walt Smith? He is the "800 pound Gorilla" (Not by looks, weight!... as in "category killer".) in the trade, and a paragon of excellence in this part of the industry (among others)... and does sell to FFE (amongst their other sources) as well as many other dealers worldwide>
3. I hear Fiji rock is not as good as some of the surrounding islands (again,
I worry about whether we're destroying the reefs). Is this true?
<Mmm, good questions as always... There is considerable "within group" differences in quality (i.e., not all Fiji rock is collected, processed similarly... some is excellent, other times... Other sources are very good as well. Do express your concerns (quality, reef destruction) to your actual supplier/s... they can greatly help steer you to excellent quality, value... and no to little negative impact on the world's reefs. Please read through my recent pitch (given at last month's MACNA XIII in Baltimore (on Sources of Reef Destruction on the World's Reefs), archived on our site: http://wetwebmedia.com/sourcesmortworldreefs.htm>
Thanks again, Allyson
<Chat with you soon my friend. Bob Fenner>

RE: a few quick questions
Bob,
Thanks for all that information the ecological impact of humans on reefs.
It's horrifying to see that they're used as CEMENT!!!
<Yes...>
If they only knew how much money they could make on selling a few of these creatures instead!
<Or eco-tourism...>
We recently learned to scuba dive and I wondered. Divers wear lead to help them sink. Often this lead is in powder form as a weight belt. Can this
lead get into the water and harm the reefs?
<Mmm, not much... actually as beads little dissolves>
Also about Caulerpa. If we have it in our tank and siphon our water, are
there any steps we need to take to make sure it does not spread to the water system?
<Run this and all other pet-fish water down to the sanitary sewer... not into storm drains, onto the ground where it can get to rivers, seas...>
Would the typical purification system prevent it from spreading as
a pest?
<Yes>
Thanks, Allyson
<Be chatting my friend. Bob Fenner>

Inverts WITHOUT Live Rock?!?!
Hello Bob (Again! - You helped me on a lighting question a few days ago),
I have a pre-tank setup dilemma that I am interested in your help with. I
am planning a new 100 SW gallon set up with Fish and invertebrates. Since
the tank will be setup in our family living room I am needing to make sure
that it is aesthetically appealing as well as functionally efficient. The
tank will be an acrylic 60"L x 18"W x 20"H with pre-filter drilled for under
tank filtration. I am currently planning to have 220 watts lighting (via a
48" power compact system with 4-55 watt bulbs) and could even add an
additional 130 watts PC lighting or 220 watts VHO lighting IF necessary. I
have read, and believe, the copious amounts of information that you and
others have provided pertaining to the use of live rock for biological
filtration, however my better half doesn't like the decorative "looks" of
live rock - I am not in total disagreement. Instead, we are leaning towards
brightly colored faux corals for aquascaping in order to match our
contemporary home and furniture decor.
<Can still be done>
I am pretty sure this would be of little consequence in a fish only tank,
<Actually no... all biological systems benefit from having more "biological" moderating influences>
however, my dilemma is that I would also like very much to keep inverts - in fact I insist on it. Specifically, I am interested in keeping starfish,
brittle stars, urchins, feather dusters, and anemones (1 or 2 of each). To
cut to the chase, is it possible/advisable to keep inverts WITHOUT live rock in the tank?
<Possible yes (this was done for years before the advent/popularity of LR), advisable? No>
Would live rock in the sump (instead of a wet/dry filter) be an adequate "work around" for not having live rock in the tank itself?
<Yes, a good/nice compromise filtration-wise... but how about foods/feeding using the live rock?>
Finally, while I have you, could you please confirm that the lighting that I
have described is adequate for the inverts that I plan to keep?
<Depends on what types of anemones, where they're placed... not easy animals to keep>
Also I would very much appreciate your suggestion of 2 or three anemones which are compatible with clownfish that could be kept successfully with 220 watts of PC lighting?
<This is gone over on our site: www.WetWebMedia.com>
Thanks in advance for your willingness to help me and others that are "new
to the game"!!
<Anytime my friend. Just a cautionary statement that will should all too familiar. I will help others who only help themselves. Bob Fenner>
Calvin

Magical Mystery Worms/Rock
Hi Bob,
Hope you are/did enjoy your visit to Asia.
<Oh yes>
I checked throughout WWM but didn't find anything that really addressed a question I have.
I was doing a little rearranging in my reef tank tonight and came across a couple of "somethings" that were a bit unusual. I suspect they are some form of polychaete/Serpulidae worm, but was hoping to get some confirmation.
The first one appears to be calcareous tube of a wine color with ridges or segments a la an earthworms body. It has a beginning diameter of @ 1/8" growing to @ 1/4" via an erratic counterclockwise spiral. I did not see any evidence of the builder.
The second one also appears to be calcareous tube. This one does not have ridges, but rather periodic protrusions similar to the dorsal plates of a stegosaurus. It is an ivory color with a beginning diameter of @ 1/16" growing in a counterclockwise spiral up to about 1/8". There appears to be a red colored creature in the tube.
Neither of them appear to display the crown that I, in my layman's view, consider "typical" of polychaete worms.
Any thoughts on what these beasties may be?
Thanks as always for your help, Mike
<Agree with your overall assessment... "some type of tubiculous worms", though perhaps encrusting mollusks... and likely no worries. Bob Fenner>

Worms in the rock?
Bob, I have a 45 gallon saltwater tank with all of the proper equipment. My problem is I bought live rock about 20lbs. of it about 3 months ago and now I am noticing something strange. It seems one of my live rocks is deteriorating and I also see these transparent type of worms coming in and out of the live rock. are these creature dangerous for my tank? Will affect my existing fish, I have a yellow tang, strawberry gamma, false percula clownfish and some invertebrate?
<Well, good live rock is highly perforated... but already coming apart? Have you contacted the outfit that sold it to you? Most "worms" (there are thousands of species) are innocuous... I wouldn't panic at this point unless these ones get way big, too numerous. Bob Fenner>

Live rock questions
I am very sorry but I don't understand --- Could you please explain the
details of "Live Rock" collection and their export market, and how this
differs from collection of corals. There is probably a very simple
explanation but I have never heard the term before, nor met a live rock so
I don't understand the terminology. Could you please explain it for me.
<Live corals I take to mean scleractinians (stony or true corals... possibly
alcyonaceans... and in the hobby of pet-fish keeping/husbandry, a wider
assortment of stinging-celled animal life. "Live rock" is a term applied to
a mix of non-living matrix (typically mostly calcium carbonate based) that
is to some degree covered and penetrated with other life... mainly
encrusting and attached microphytic algae, sponges, tunicates...
specifically NOT stinging-celled life. This material is collected/used for
filtration, decor, food in marine aquarium systems. Further input re its
utility, sources, curing... can be found in the archives posted on the
site: www.WetWebMedia.com>
Regards, Andrew Branson

Shark finning (& cheap shot at the aquarium interest by simple servant)
Sender: owner-coral-list@coral.aoml.noaa.gov
To: coral-list@coral.aoml.noaa.gov
Hello coral-listers,
I have been just informed that an agency on the Marshall Islands where I live and work has approved an agreement with a foreign company to allow shark fin fishing in local waters. The news are even more frightening and
disappointing than what this sounds since the agency that signed the agreement is in charge of the marine resources in the Country. Evidently, in charge of depleting and destroying them more than protecting and managing them.
Only a couple of months ago we also received information regarding another agreement between the same agency and a private investor for live rock collection. Fortunately for side reasons, the collection of corals never started and the project aborted.
I address my cry of disappointment and ask for help to the coral reef scientists and marine conservationists to have help, support and suggestion on how to fight this absurd new agreement and this sure promise of depletion of the shark communities.
I am sure that some of you had to face a similar problem somewhere else and some of you found a solution already.
I thank you for your advice and support,
Silvia Pinca,
College of the Marshall Islands
P.O. Box 1258
Majuro, Republic of the Marshall Islands
Excerpted: "Only a couple of months ago we also received information
regarding another agreement between the same agency and a
private investor for live rock collection. Fortunately for
side reasons, the collection of corals never started and
the project aborted."
<Live rock collection does not equate to collection of corals... the few
countries where this practice is licensed, particularly Fiji, utilize
otherwise wasted return air freight, local labor and enjoy considerable
hard
currency income from this industry... Further, the awareness that
captive husbandry of ornamental aquatics brings to the world is significant
"fuel to the fire" in awareness of environmental issues... Both promote the
"payment" for research and education.
Robert Fenner (who wishes Ed Lovell's work in Fiji on "live rock" was in
print) >

Unknown Life form
Hi Bob, My 92 gal. is about 3 mos. old now. My Walt Smith Precured Live rock purchased at FFExpress is about one month old. This morning when I turned my lights on I saw something that looked like a little critter of
some kind scurry into a hiding hole.
<All sorts of surprises...>
It was a milky white color and it was scurrying on the rock, not swimming. It was maybe 1/4 inch in length. Have any idea what this is and should I be freaking out or what?
<No real worries here... likely a species of amphipod... a sizable group of small crustaceans... of more use than harm at any length... but all-too often consumed in ongoing systems>
I checked as many FAQ's at FF and WetWebMedia that I could but I didn't see anything that looked like this little guy.
<Thanks for this... need to develop (or find someone's URL to refer to) with lots of the "common" mystery items like this...>
I appreciate any suggestions you might have on what I should do now. I have 2 yellowtail blue damsels, one domino and a scooter blenny. I would like to add some more livestock but I don't know if I should be worried about this "thing" or not.
<Not to worry... accept about being bitten by that Domino as it gets larger...>
OH one more thing...I have (had?) a feather duster that is attached to the rock that the alien scurried into. The feather duster lost its' top and the tube is still standing there. I read that it could be growing another, is that right?
<Yes, typically>
Thanks for your help....I read your site so much I feel like we are friends! I like your bio, too you're a cutie pie! Thanks again, Joyce
<Ah, a delight. Bob Fenner>

Cement live rock
Hello Bob,
I have recently come across a group of advocates for making live rock out of a combination of cement and oyster shells. The oyster shells are for creating a porous final product. Having a bit of experience with masonry, I know that cement can be made to be very porous a number of ways, which is one of the sought after qualities in good live rock. of course such a product would have to be placed in contact with existing live rock to become such. Do you have any knowledge of live rock being created in such away? Is it possible? Are there any down sides? Thank you, Steve B.
<Do know about these man-made rocks... and used to help make a few decades back for the public aquarium biz... GARF and my friend Walt Smith (WSI in Fiji) most notably advocate such materials use. Am not a huge fan, as you know the downsides of using masonry amongst the uninitiated... alkalinity and pH problems from incorrectly chosen "hydrated calcium silicates" to start with, induced algae problems from the same, huge waiting times for succession to occur (algae et al organisms to populate the artificial substrate)... However, a valid argument can be made for making/using cement rock for very large systems, large rocks use, design ideas, or just general experimentation... My advice? Look at GARF's info. and try making some... cure them in a "kiddie wading pool" with a dilute inorganic acid (like cut 3M hydrochloric, aka Muriatic acid) or a dilute organic like vinegar/acetic... testing the alkalinity of the remaining work for a few days in new water... The real downside is the potential for toxicity...
Bob Fenner>

FFExpress Rock--Really Cured?
Hello,
I have finally got my 55 gallon tank set up and am ready to get live rock. The rock that is on sale at FFExpress) right now is called precured. I am a member of Reefland.com's message board and several people there say that the rock that is called precured is not cured. I would like to know if it is going to smell up my whole house before buying it. So is precured fully cured? If not will it smell horrible? Would it be cheaper to air freight rock (90 pounds) to Virginia? Thank you, Andrew
<There really is "only a matter of degree" to any live rock's being "pre-cured" and a great deal of variability here... Chances are the new rock will not "stink up" your living place, and likely that the extra money for the "more" cured product is well worth the cost... as the time, water changes et al. from "more curing" on your end will very likely cost more in the long run. Air freight is about the only way to go here. Bob Fenner>

RE: My live rock
Bob-
I've been leaving my lights on like you said. Everything is going well,
except overnight almost there was a brown algae bloom. What should I do at this point? Thanks, Jeff
<At this point... just ignore it... this is just a transient diatom algae bloom. Bob Fenner>

COPPER
Hi again. I'm the one who had the penny dropped into my reef.
<Ah, yes, the "unlucky" penny...>
I have another question. What affect does copper have on the live rock in my tank?
<At appreciable levels, all negative... kills most all life...>
The coralline algae on my rock is or has died off and now I have a brown substance all over the place (substrate and on live rock). I was wondering if this is due to the copper problem?
<Likely yes, directly or not...>
Also, is it possible to still have copper in the rock and not the water itself (I had my water tested over the weekend, almost two weeks after the incident, and the Salifert kit did not read any copper)?
<Yes... and that the copper levels are lower than the sensitivity, yet high enough in concentration to be exerting toxic effects...>
Thanks again, Shawna
<Hang in there my friend.... Place a pad of PolyFilter in your filter flow path... the copper and your trials will soon be over. Bob Fenner>

Re: COPPER
Eventually, will my live rock grow coralline again or should I just chuck it
in the trash? I'm pretty sure I'm done with reefing for a while and
probably do fish only with some rock. Shawna
<Be assured that given enough biomineral, alkalinity, lighting, time, corallines will repopulate your rock. Bob Fenner>

Live Rock?
Mr. Fenner,
I have read your articles on WetWebMedia and I'd first like to thank you for all your insight on this great hobby of ours..
<Most of it borrowed from others...>
I have a 60 galloon fish only tank with some damsels and 3 tangs in it..
However, when I set up the tank, I used fake coral to provide hiding spaces for the fish..
I have read your articles on the benefits of live rock and want to know how and if it's possible to add live rock to my existing system...
<Yes, it certainly is possible, and recommended, especially with your tangs presence... Please read through the Live Rock FAQ sections re this process... adding live rock to an existing set-up.>
thanks for your time, Dindo
<You're welcome my friend. Bob Fenner>

Re: Live Rock?
Mr. Fenner,
Didn't think you would respond so quickly... sorry that I didn't find that area for live rock first...thank you once again, Dindo
<No worries my friend... much needs to be done to make the site more apparent, navigable. Be chatting. Bob Fenner>

Night Crawlers and other LR phenomena
I was looking in the tank tonight with a flashlight to see what popped up, and there were a few surprises. First, one of the live rocks has got tentacles coming out of it--about 2" long, and banded (lighter and darker "rings" around them). They retract on any motion. There are about 3 tentacles coming out--looks pretty eerie. There doesn't appear to be any central body, like Aiptasia, just the tentacles coming out of the holes in the rock (from several different holes in the same general location on the same rock). [The tentacles actually are pretty near the hammer coral. Am I in for a "stinging war" of sorts here?]
<Likely not>
The second thing I saw was a small crab--his shell is about 1/4" to 1/2" across, and is white/off-white. Proportionately, his symmetrical claws are very heavy (as compared to his body, they are of considerable mass) and are also white/off-white. However, his legs are sand colored, so that when he's on a rock, you don't notice him unless he moves--because with the darker-colored legs, all you see is his body, which looks like a small pebble.
Thought you might have some ideas on what these night crawlers might be.
<All sorts, but nothing definite>
I'm READY for the calc reactor--I can't seem to get my calc above 340-360 with the additives, and it's really messing up the tank, clogging the filters and leaving residue all over everything. . . However, the BGA (black slime) that had been growing on the rock where I had been putting in the calcium has all been consumed by a small, hungry sand goby that was added last weekend along with the maroon clown. That goby is worth it's weight in gold--he hasn't stopped filtering sand since he got here, and the substrate is getting much cleaner as well.
<Ah good>
P.S. I did find another Aiptasia today--on a "base rock" that really can't be removed and soaked. The Aiptasia haven't reappeared on the rocks that got soaked in freshwater. I may just leave this one be and add a predator later if it seems to be spreading, unless I should try to stamp it out now before it gets out of hand. (I guess my question here is, can this stuff "explode" and infest the tank rapidly, or can I observe it for a while with no significant risk of infestation?)
<Who knows? Perhaps.>
Hope you're having a nice weekend. No crisis this time--just a couple of inquiries. Thanks for your input! --James Deets
<Be chatting. Bob Fenner>

FAQ about marine aquarium
I just recently set up my tank, it is a 29gal. I've been reading different
books and asking different aquarium stores how to set my tank up. I went to a place where I got everything they told me to put in a "live rock". Than I was curious because all I want right now to start is just a fish aquarium. So I added some damsels to my tank and I was wondering is the live rock going to kill the damsels or are both the live rock and the damsels going to help cycle my tank? I would really appreciate if you could help me. Thanks
<I admire your inquisitiveness. The live rock will definitely add to the stability and optimization of water quality for your damsels... and your enjoyment of the hobby. Endless curious things going on here. Do read over as much of our site as you can take... www.wetwebmedia.com for much more. Bob Fenner>

A concern
In looking over your statements concerning Fiji Live Rock and the older photos taken at WSI (yes, have been there), am concerned re the obvious negative connotations and relation of your statements to Walt Smith and Walt Smith International. To wit, can you direct me to the person(s) who ascertain that WSI claims there rock or other products are "cured for six weeks"?
<I would appreciate your dropping the referral to WSI, to Walt Smith, a friend of mine, the trade's, and your business interests, and either identifying the images presented as to what facility, time frame they represent, and disavowing their connection to any "cured" warrantee. Bob Fenner>

Re: A concern
You should reread the page that is not what is stated.
PETS WAREHOUSE
For pet owners that are very passionate about the animals they choose to share their lives with!
<What? What does an irrelevant slogan have to do with defaming and slandering someone? Bob Fenner>

Live Rock
Are you sure about the rock becoming fully encrusted since its got no life on it now from being aired out for weeks? Will my rock provide bio filtration or not?
<As sure as I'm keying you my friend, Bob Fenner>

Base rock
I was wondering how long it takes for base rock to become "live". I
have a 90 gallon tank with about 50/50 live rock to base rock and I was
wondering, under proper conditions, when can I expect my base rock to
become "live"? I have heard different opinions from 6 months to 5 years
and was hoping I could get your opinion on this subject.
<Varying times... a few to several months under "propitious circumstances" (adequate lighting, circulation, nutrient availability, dearth of competitors, predators...)... Better to place some "live" live rock on and around the base to provide starter materials, organisms. Bob Fenner>

Live Rock Ok to add now?
Hi, I am scheduled to receive 45 pounds of live rock on Wednesday that I
ordered through FFExpress. I have a 55 gallon fish and hardy invert system.
The tank has been running for 6 weeks. I had a couple of clowns die through the cycling period and currently in the tank are a algae-eating blenny, strawberry Basslet, and an anemone crab. My ammonia level is 0 but my nitrites are off the chart.
<Should have waited on placing more live rock till the existing system had thoroughly cycled...>
I am using protein skimmer, wet/dry, etc. My questions are: When I receive the live rock from you guys, what do I need to do before placing it in my tank (rinse, scrub, etc.)?
<Not much... if the rock is in good shape, place it... see below... Scrubbing, rinsing will only boost your nitrogen (and other) toxic levels...>
Should I add small amounts per day or all of it at once The rock I ordered is pre-cured Fiji). Lastly, will my inhabitants be in danger after adding the live rock? Should I try to remove them or will they make it? Your help will be greatly appreciated....Thanks.

Live rocks
Dear Bob
I find your Q&A very informative and interesting. A year ago I started my first salt water tank (33gal), I had about 10 lbs of lava rocks, then I put in 6 pounds of live rocks because I found them interesting.
Now over the past year I now have 18 pounds of live rocks. My question
is: can the lava rocks be considered live since they are almost covered
with coralline algae , sponge and what I think are tunicates?
I have a protein skimmer, a Fluval 403(charcoal,bio-max,sponge)and 2
power heads 301 for circulation, 1 20w regular fluorescent. I have 2
Tubastrea faulkneri and 1 Heterogorgia natumani or Golden sea whip
which are both doing very well. Diane
<Absolutely on the question, what makes live rock "live"... Well done.
Bob Fenner>

Live rock
Bob,
I have a year-old saltwater tank (46 gallon) with crushed coral and approx. 75 lbs. of live rock. I purchased the live rock from a local dealer
(Virginia). The dealer said it was cured; however, it had bristle worms and
Aiptasia rock anemones in it. The bristle worms and anemones have been
eradicated. The rock was covered with macroalgae which has been eaten by my Regal Tang. The live rock now has a coating of brown and green algae. I have recently installed (today) a Berlin skimmer and I have a 400 gallon per hour power head. My question is: does live rock ever die?
<Not unless it is "nuked" as with bleach, formaldehyde... some life continues...>
How can you tell if it is dead? and do I ever have to replace live rock or can I just add to it?
<I do endorse adding, replacing part of live rock... to keep it's input in "dynamic equilibrium" (a fave oxymoron)... at about a year old, and then six months after... depending on size, type of system... ten to twenty percent or so>
Also, I bought some Coralife VHO actinic and 50/50 bulbs for my tank. I have 2 "All Glass Aquarium" strip light houses that had 2 actinic Coralife bulbs and 2 10,000 K bulbs. My VHO bulbs seem too big to fit in the houses. I can get them in, but the ends are too big to turn to the proper connection and when they seem to be connected the lights just flicker. Do I need to purchase a different house for VHO bulbs...or did I just get poorly-constructed bulbs?
<These lamps do need bigger fittings, and ballasts... Take a look through the fish magazines, and search the net... Champion Lighting (.com), Hamilton... others can help you retrofit your lighting>
One last question. Will scarlet reef hermits and Red leg-Lefhanded hermits
cause any damage to soft corals or mushrooms? Thanks!, Tammy
<Oh, you do ask some toughies... yes, these animals can go awry... though generally not... one of the reasons I encourage folks to shy on the low density side if using them...Bob Fenner>

Live Rock
I am setting up a 250 gallon reef tank, 30" high. How many pounds of live
rock should I order? Thanks.
<A bunch... maybe one pound per gallon now, and let it cure for a month or so... and then order more, and cure it over, to the side of the older... to not-overwhelm the system... and give you a chance to see how much more you want... Do look into the big multi-box discounts... FFExpress offers on their premium rock. Bob Fenner>

Can I add live rock?
Have a 70gal saltwater established for about1 year now. Have hard coral not live) and Puka shell bottom. have 2 wet dry systems going (Eheim & Fluval) just for good measures. Using 1 filter with undergravel system. have 4 bulb hood with 4 ft coral life bulbs very bright). have little trace of nitrates and zero nitrites, algae is fluorescent green with some coralline pink. 1 flame angel,1 coral beauty, 5 Turbos, panther grouper. Fish are doing well as with snails. Want to add some live rock Fiji etc..) Is this a good idea and how high should I keep rock. Does live rock give off high ammonia levels? How many more fish do you think I can add to tank? Tank is 4ft long 18in.deep and 18in wide. If I can add hard rock which type do you suggest (colorful) or can I add some colorful live coral? Thank you
<Yes to adding the live rock.. and it may give off some ammonia... so I would not buy totally un-pre-cured varieties... Or place all of it at once... Maybe get a box (cheapest break quantity) and see if you'd like to add more later... and place the newer above and around the first... And you could double the biota in your tank... but be careful with getting anything small-ish... That Panther Grouper will be getting big/BIG soon, and able to drop that "landing craft" mouth up REALLY large. For your first hard corals do look to the genus Euphyllia, family Caryophyllidae, the Torch, Frogspawn et al. corals, they're about the hardiest for aquarium use.
Bob Fenner>

Live Rock and other Fish
I recently read an article on your web site about Live Rock and how it will
help keep your aquarium stabilized. I am very interested in this technique.
I have a 125 gallon aquarium and I have some concern about the type of fish you can put in an aquarium with the live rock. Any suggestions?
Nate Hayward
PS I think your Web site is awesome...
<Hmm, all sorts and thank you for adding to the site! I would/do endorse adding live rock, even to fish only systems... for all the reasons stated... The worst that the "type of fish" you might put in with the live rock would do is eat it... Really not a bad thing at all. You can put any, all types of fishes in with live rock. Bob Fenner>

Adding Live Rock
Hi Bob.
I have a 37 gal tank with a 4" Queen, 3" Flame, 3" Regal Tang & 3" Royal
Gramma. Is it prudent to add a couple of pieces of cured live rock to my
system or did I miss my chance?
Also, I have been battling a parasite problem and the Cupramine has not
seemed to completely lick it. I added carbon to the tank thinking it was
licked, but within 2 days my Flame was losing color and behaving erratically. A quick freshwater dip saved him and I re-introduced the
copper, but my aragonite substrate seems to absorb it big time. My
copper tests always show blue, which is not one of the choices (only
green & purple). What do you suggest? Thanks, Patrick Collins
<Hmm, time for a new test kit... for sequestered copper solutions... And do get the live rock, but wait till the ich problem is completely licked. Let's try lowering the specific gravity to 1.017 and raising the temperature to 83F... and keeping the Cupramine at 0.20 to 0.30 ppm... by putting it in twice a day... And if/when ich symptoms are gone... wait a good month to place that live rock... The environment betterment it does will help keep your livestock healthy. Bob Fenner>

Live rock
I am starting to get some growth on my live rock. They are white almost
see-through and look like tiny trees. They are about 1/8 of an inch and I
have about 6 or 8 of them . I just started adding liquid calcium, strontium, and iodine so that I can start putting corals in, could this have started the
growth? What are they (good or bad)?
<Probably nothing to be concerned about... I wouldn't let them stop my starting the coral stocking one bit.... In all likelihood, these mystery worms, polyps, UFO's will disappear soon, of their own accord...Bob Fenner>

Replacing undergravel filter with LR
Hi Bob,
Thanks for being willing to answer questions from relative newbies like
myself!
I have a 55 gallon marine tank which has been running for about 2 years
with an undergravel filter, supplemented at cleaning time by an old Fluval 303. Currently, I have one yellowtail damsel, two Yellowfin damsels, and a maroon clown, plus a couple of Astrea snails. Testing reveals no PH, ammonia, nitrate, or nitrite problems, but I do have a long standing diatom bloom (probably due to excess nutrients in the filter and tap water). I am in the process of upgrading my tank by adding a CPR BakPak skimmer, PC lighting, and a newer Fluval. I would like to replace my undergravel filter with LR/LS, but I am worried about killing off my current livestock while the rock recycles.
Should I remove the fish and snails to a 15 gallon quarantine tank for a
couple of weeks after adding the "cured" rock?
Thanks again! Deborah Padgett
<It is an honor and privilege to share my thoughts with you. I would definitely remove the livestock as you suggest while you're curing your new rock... and add the listed gear as you can. Bob Fenner>

Improving Water Quality
Bob, I have a 125 gal tank, and I cannot keep a good quality of water. I keep hearing over and over about adding live rock to help filter the water. Does this help? Also I have a little cooper in my tank, How do I remove it? The tank has crushed coral the bottom.
<The live rock is definitely one of the easiest, surest, and best ways to generate and sustain an optimized environment. Take a look at my live rock article stored at www.wetwebmedia.com for more.
Not to worry re the copper, if there is any detectable with a test kit, go ahead and place some activated carbon (like Chemipure) in your filter flow path and it will be gone in a day... Otherwise your live rock will quickly absorb any small residual. Bob Fenner>

Live Rock in Fish Only Tank
We're beginning to put together our 250 gal aquarium. The aquarium will
be fish only (angels-butterflies-box fish) along with some red hermit
crabs etc. I had planned to put in live rock. A person at a marine pet
shop advised not to use live rock if we were going to have a fish only
tank. She said it would create algae problems. We will have an
Amiracle wet-dry filter with 2 protein skimmers each powered by Rio
pumps. We have a chemical chamber for activated carbon if need be and
we will have 25 watt UV sterilizer on it. I thought the live rock would
provide some filtering, hiding places for the fish, and provide some
food for some of the fish. What advice to you have? Mark Chalupsky
<I am of the direct opposite opinion of the other party... The live rock will do many things to help you keep your system clean, and relatively algae free... Do place some for looks and function. My more complete stance on live rock use can be found in articles posted at www.wetwebmedia.com
Bob Fenner>

Introducing live sand and/or rock
I am a relatively new hobbyist. I have a 100 gallon tank that was set up a year ago with dead coral and rocks. I currently have a scissortail goby, yellow-head sleeper gobies, yellow tang, emperor tang, clown anemone, rabbit fish, long-nose Hawkfish, and flame angel and all are doing extremely well. I'd love to switch to live rock/live sand but am concerned about the health of my fish. I would also like to try the cleaner crews. Is there an order to introducing rock or sand? Can I add small amounts of live rock without jeopardizing my fish or is it better to totally empty the tank and start from scratch with a new live rock set up? Should I wait until the live rock/sand is stable before introducing the cleaner crews? Please advise.
Thanks, Mary Frances Weathington
<Good questions. It would be BETTER (wow, that's bright) to switch to, add the live rock... And I would... add the live rock... and let it inoculate your present (or replaced if you want) substrate... this happens with time.
The live rock can be added a bit at a time (10-20 pounds at a throw let's say), and I would definitely request the "fully cured" types if you didn't want to undergo the trouble of curing it yourself... If indeed you wanted to add a great quantity (let's say more than 20 pounds for your 100 gallon system), I would ensure that the rock was more thoroughly cured yourself,,,, by curing it in another system... Setting up a tank with a skimmer, monitoring ammonia, nitrite for a month or so, while the concentrated mass re-centered itself.
The "cleaner-uppers" can be added at the same time either the small amount of rock is added or after the big amount is cycled... Bob Fenner>

Long green algae
I'm still curing rock. Assure me that I'm on the right track. I have long
green algae, well it's about 1/4 inch long and expanding, growing on the
rock. Kalkwasser is going in at about a gallon a day. Ammonia is good.
Nitrates high. Alkalinity is above 3.6, pH is about 8.4. some coralline
algae is still there. Will the green stuff die off eventually. Rock has
been curing (was pre-cured from FFX) since 1/5. Thanks. Maybe if you could give me some idea of what to expect in a normal cycle ....?
<Sounds like you're done... no ammonia, no nitrite... place the rock... or if it IS placed, start adding your purposeful cleaner uppers... I'd get a Lawnmower Blenny and/or Ctenochaetus or Zebrasoma tangs in there right away...Bob Fenner... who says, change out a good deal of the water in the meanwhile... to get the nitrates down to 10-20ppm max.>

live rock change
What is the best way to change out my old live rock for new, the old
rock is about 6 years old and is full of glass anemones. I just can't get rid of them! so if I change out the live rock with new will it shock the tank or will the anemones grow back? The rock is in a 120 gallon tank and has about 10 fish of different sizes and ages. I have a purple tang (victor):) who is 6.5 years old so I want to make sure that I don't mess up and cause a problem changing out this rock. as for the glass anemones. Is there any thing that I can do I clean the rock about once a month but they come back and have tried the shrimp you sell there at FFExpress but they didn't make a dent they are still alive a year and still going strong! So please if you can help me let me know oh also how much rock should I buy for that 120 gallon tank thanks and have a great day.
<Yowzah... some Glass anemone trouble now! If it is that/this bad, and you're going to get rid of the existing live rock (more about this below), get out all the clean plastic containers of size you can get your hands on... and if there's not enough of them to fit all the old rock... a few thick plastic trash can liners in your cleanest (and least holey!) trash cans. Have enough towels handy? Now, with the new "as cured as you can buy it new live rock on hand", carefully lift the old rock out and place it (dry) in the containers. After it's out, (did I mention to turn the system lights off?), let the dust settle, and do your best to siphon about half the water out while carefully gravel vacuuming the bottom...
Next, carefully place the new rock, top the tank off with pre-made synthetic water. Run your skimmer full out and make sure it is emptied daily... or more frequently... measure for appreciable ammonia... all the things you did when you first got into the hobby!
Now a sobering statement: Even with a complete change-out of the LR and vacuuming... in all likelihood enough Aiptasia bits/parts will be introduced on the new rock, still in the system to re-introduce it... and no, I wouldn't suggest taking the fish out and nuking (bleaching) the whole system (including the substrate)... Aiptasia spp. are almost as likely to "get into" the system on the new LR anyway. So, what would I do?
If one will fit in, about this time or within weeks of the change-out, install a Chelmon or Chelmonops sp. Butterflyfish (if it will go with the rest of the fish livestock you have)... this is the current "A" line of defense against Glass Anemones for your type of setting.
Bob Fenner, who has LR, Aiptasia, and other related pieces archived at www.wetwebmedia.com for your perusal.>

Live Rock
Hello,
I purchased live rock from FFExpress about 4 months ago. The rock looks
okay but I am getting concerned that I do not see more growth on the rock. A couple of spots here and there but nothing to say that it is very active. A friend of mine says it could be a lack of lighting but I tend to disagree. About the only thing that is growing are clumps of hair algae and another type of algae I purchased from a local fish store. None of it is really on the rock though. Do I need a supplement or should I give it more time? How long does it take? Do I need to dose calcium? Am I bleaching the rock with too much light?
220 Gallon Reef/Fish
680 Gallons of Circulation Per Hour
R/O Unit - Automatic Replenishment
3 175Watt 10K Metal Halides - Sides (Noon - 5:00pm), Middle (4:00pm -
10:00pm)
1 VHO 10K - 12 Hours per day
1 VHO Actinic - 12 Hours per day
Trickle Filter - 24 x 7
Protein Skimmer - 24 by 7
50 Micron Mechanical Filtration - 24 by 7
25W UV Sterilizer
No Carbon
No Dosing
No Buffering
170lb Live rock
40lb live sand
1 Hippo Tang
25 Snails
15 Crabs
3 Cleaner Shrimp
1 Long Tentacle Anemone
1 Bubble Anemone
Ammonia = 0ppm
Nitrites = 0ppm
Nitrates = 0ppm
Copper = 0ppm
Ph = 8.4
Temp = 76-79 Degrees, 77 Degrees Most of the time. It does fluctuate.
No Water changes. Automatic Replenishment from R/O Unit (1 Gallon Per
Week)
Various Additives (No Schedule)
- Coralife, Iodine
- Kent, Essential Elements
- Kent, Coral-Vite
- Kent, R/O Right
- Kent, Zoe
Feed, Once a day
- Flake Food
- Cut up frozen shrimp
Thanks, John Heiberger
<Thank you for writing. It may well be that you have a situation of not enough light... even though you list 3 MH and types of fluorescents... this is a big tank... you might want to borrow/buy a PAR meter to check how much useful illumination is reaching various parts of the bottom, live rock... and consider adding more/larger MH or compact fluorescents.
Alternatively/additionally, you may well have either/or both a calcium (and to a lesser extent other biomineral) and/or an alkalinity deficit. Invest in test kits for at least calcium and alkalinity... and ring me back when you have these data. The starting water and replacement is not supplying sufficient Ca, Sr, Mg, carbonates, bicarbonates... are these available through your substrate, feeding, other supplements? I doubt it. The only way to "tell"? Through testing.
A minor factor may be your "clean up" animals and tang... they might be consuming a modicum of the live rock life.
To re-cap, what I would do is:
1) measure PAR (photosynthetically active/available radiation).
2) measure calcium concentration
3) measure alkalinity
Then contact myself, others and seek their input on how to address your situation.
Bob Fenner, who really likes to help solve these "mysteries">

New Live Rock over Old?
I have a reef tank that has been successfully established for years. The live rock was originally beautiful with all kinds off things growing on it. I have VHO lighting but over time the live rock has grown to look more like just plain old base rock. Should I seed my reef with some new pieces of live rock with plenty of things growing on it?
If so, is there any real reason beside the aesthetic beauty to add new
rock? Thanks for the help-Matt Brady
<Thanks for the query. Lots of input on this issue the last few weeks... Yes to "boosting" your live rock's biodiversity and abundance via periodically adding some new material. I would do this about every six months... To add food, chemicals, more biological filtration... and beauty and interest!
Bob Fenner>

Live Rock & Ich
Hi Bob,
I am in the process of taking down my 26 gallon tank, completely cleaning it, then re-starting. If I thoroughly rinse my crushed coral substrate and let dry in the sun will that kill off any lingering ich parasites? What should I do with my live rock to cure all ich?
I would like to add live sand this go around, does it require any special maintenance? Can I get it from the beach? I have heard that I should not use live rock AND an undergravel filter as they will work against each other, so if that's the case what other filtration can I add in addition to a CPR backpack, a Fluval 2, and the live rock (3/4 pound per gallon) Maybe a good size canister like a Fluval 303? Thanks.
<Well, let's see. Yes, you can rinse and air dry the current substrate to rid it of ich life stages. But I would chlorine bleach soak it, rinse it and just dechlorinate it for immediate re-use. Re the live rock, you could just let it go fallow in an aquarium with no fish livestock for a few months (2-3), but if you have no desire to preserve the living part of it, treat it with the bleach et al. process used for the sand. The live sand can be treated/maintained in a few ways. I would use Live Rock with it, indeed, just allow the live rock to "seed" the sand. Don't get the sand from the beach. A lot of trouble and problems with introducing undesirable and dying life forms, pollution... Instead just buy the substrate from a dealer, rinse it and place it before the Live Rock. You can use an undergravel filter with one or both (live rock, sand). If you'd like you could add another filter to the system, and a canister or good sized outside hang-on power filter are both good choices. Bob Fenner>

Quantity of Live Rock
Hi Bob, I'm planning to set up a 75 gallon tank and was wondering what
the rule is for live rock in pounds. How much weight for this tank? I
have a 45 gallon corner tank and I started with only 10 lbs two years
ago and all is fine. I have added another 10 lbs since then for a total
of only 20. Is this ok or the more the better?
<Errrr, well depends on... density of the material being used... the shape of the tank (hex, show, standard...)... what appearance or effect you're trying to achieve... how much moolah you've got to invest... but about a pound to a pound and a half a gallon or so... for many folks/circumstances... and the more the better... sometimes it's worthwhile to do as you're doing... add a bit every few to several months... but cheaper by volume (actually pounds, boxes) buying. Bob Fenner>

Live Rock & Cycling
I am starting up a 90 gallon reef system. I have the water conditions under control and have added a supplement to start bacterial growth. I want to add live rock to help cycle the tank. How long do I have to wait before adding the live rock, and how much rock should I add. My system uses a trickle filter and protein skimmer for filtration. Also, I have a question about live rock. Will store cycled live rock have coral growth and other organisms present on and in it, or is this only fresh live rock?
thanks for your help.
<Welcome to the reef interest! Lots of different opinions... and mine aren't always "the ones"... but here goes: You only have to wait a few days to a week after putting your system together to start placing, or better still, place all your live rock... to give the water time to "settle in"... And, both store-cycled (or any other place) rock has about all that comes with live rock that's going to make it... but if it were me, as your friend and accomplice, I'd keep investigating till I was real sure about how to proceed.
Hmmm, likely a big chance for savings in purchasing a bunch (like all) your rock at this point... and maybe curing it in-place (in your tank) or having a store, other hobbyist who is "set-up" for LR curing help you... I wouldn't trust any rock as of being "cured" without making sure it was done myself....
And don't fool with trying to "cycle" the tank any further, the live rock will do this... along with a few other things.
You're welcome to more of my gratuitous opinions in the form of articles at www.wetwebmedia.com and thank you for writing! Bob Fenner>

Dead Rock Becomes Live?
I have had a fish only tank setup for about a year now, and it was seeded
with live sand from a LFS. I added rock, regular "dead" stuff. Will this
rock ever become "live"? If not, how is live rock made? It can't all be
from the ocean especially with all the bans going on in the world.
<Under propitious circumstances your dead rock will definitely become more live. It may not ever rival the abundance and diversity of different types of wild collected rock, but no big. Many people add some live rock to dead and vice versa to culture their own more completely and quickly. A good deal of live rock is cultured (a few million pounds going in Fla), but most is still wild-collected, mostly out of Fiji, but also from Samoa, Marshalls, Tonga... Bob Fenner>

Fan of Live Rock
I guess this is more or a comment than a questions, it seems that most of your answers to questions are "live rock live rock live rock". Now I know live rock is the new, or has something come along to replace it, biology filter method but it just seems that since FFE sells live rock you seem to be pushing it at every turn.
<Thank you for writing. Yes, I'm a big fan of Live Rock... it's use almost guarantees optimized, stable water quality (or at least much better than things would be in its absence). I don't know how much, or even what types of LR FFExpress sells, nor is it really any of "my business". You might notice I plug Siporax, PolyFilter and a few other unique/proprietary products, because they are 1) so good for their proscribed purposes, and 2) have to be identified by brand name as there is nothing else like them... and as far as I know, the folks at FFExpress/Petstore.com don't sell them (though I would). What would you suggest yourself? Please pick out one or a few of the queries that come in and send me/us your posts.>
Now live rock does work but guess what so does wet/dry system, sand filters (what ever happen to live sand), undergravel and the list goes on and on. I think it's very self serving to push live rock on everyone as if other method don't work just as well, and they do. I've been keeping saltwater fish for over 15 years and know a lot of wholesalers and people that work at public aquariums and just people who have been in the hobby for years. What I get from them is that many different methods work and you shouldn't attack anyone for what method they use as long as it works.
<Wet Dry filters as originally described by George Smit do work, but almost all the ones I find on the market are incomplete... to a one, they are nitrate factories, pushing the forward reaction of nitrification... and almost all would be improved by removing the wet dry media, definitely be improved by adding more live rock (from FFExp. or not), and lighting, mud, Caulerpa.
And what? You believe sand, undergravel work "as well" as live rock? Time to get out and ask around. There ARE many methods to produce and maintain high water quality (isn't this the purpose of filtration?) and I do readily admit and suggest all the types of filtration... for different purposes and applications. And do not ever intend to attack any ones ideas... >
To me live rock is just another method in the long line of systems that
is being push on hobbyist to get their money as in a year or two, if not
already, something else will take its place and drain more money out of
hobbyist. Michael
<Michael, what a dismal view. Really? How about this? Maybe you can/will invent something better than live rock or whatever else is the "next wave" and can produce and give it away or for cheap... and we'll all forget about live rock. What do you think people should do with their money? Give it to... Bob Fenner, who hopes you're joking.>

Cleaning "Gunk" Off Live Rock
Hello! I have an overflow 92 gallon tank. I read one of your daily questions about the accumulation of "gunk" sandy detritus type pile up on live rock. My live rock has the same problem. I have one return pipe to the tank (from the sump below) and it doesn't have a direct flow over all of the live rock to "blast it". Should I purchase a powerhead of some kind that will create more water circulation in there? The tank is a corner aquarium shape (like a piece of pie) to fit in the corner, so the back of the tank comes to more of a point and the front is wide and rounded. The return pipe is in the back to the right side and does sweep over some of the rock. The "vacuum" that I use for water changes doesn't work for sucking up the "mulm" on the rock either...it's suction must not be strong enough and there are too many small crevices. Also, one more question...My live rock is sitting right in top of my sand/coral gravel...I have read that many people prop it up because it isn't supposed to be directly on top of the sand...what is your opinion on this topic? My tank has been set up like this for about 9 months. Thanks!
<Yes, a powerhead blaster is my fave. The alternative, a suck-em up attachment to an outside powerfilter is another possibility but this really takes a long time to get much of the loose material out. You can attach a smaller diameter piece of rigid tubing to your filter to do this, but I wouldn't. Get a small but powerful powerhead.
On the second issue, I don't find that placing the live rock on the substrate does any harm at all, and looks more natural and is more stable... especially with fishes and critters that like to do a lot of excavating.
Bob Fenner>

Live Rock and
Thank you for your help with my previous question.
I currently only have 20 LB of Fiji live rock in my 55 Reef. I have soft corals (Colt, mushrooms) and Anemones. I have a protein skimmer that does a great gob. My questions are as follows:
1. Does the use of live rock really reduce nitrates? Another words, does the live rock actually produce the anaerobic bacteria that completes the nitrogen cycle?
2. Can I slowly add live rock (say a small piece a week or so) and not kill my tank or the corals? Thank you for your help. Andrew Elstein
<Good questions... ones that need to be known by all, but are rarely raised...
1) Yes, healthy, cured live rock does aid in dentrification (the doing away with nitrates) and their removal through utilization... The gaps, biofilms et al. do harbor and foster large populations of anaerobic bacteria involved in the former, and the presence and metabolism of photosynthetic organisms go a long way to taking the nitrates out of solution.
2) Slowly adding live rock? I wouldn't... on a few counts. Principally the havoc of disrupting your other livestock from introducing "gunk", the re-establishment of many "cycles"; but also the likelihood of introducing undesirable life forms, and the inconvenience to you/myself of treating/re-treating the rock, the system... I'd at least have another system to treat the rock if I were buying it piece by piece to thoroughly cure it ahead of placing it in the main tank. But I'd look around for deals on box quantities instead (really) and batch treat it all at once, or make an arrangement with another aquarist in need of a large quantity, and/or a retailer and have them batch treat it, then introduce "the rest" of the live rock all at once. Think about this, I'll bet you'll agree these are the routes to go. Bob Fenner>

Question on using Live Rock for FO systems
I have a question. I have a 30 gallon tank and have 3 triggers. (Clown, Blueline, Huma Huma) I have fake rocks and plants. Would they prefer live rock and real plants or should I stick with the fake stuff?
<They and you would very much prefer the "real thing". Though they may indeed have a field day picking at, eating, even moving the rock around, the life in and on it will do great things to improve water quality, their health, and make your system look and be much better. Want more? Take a gander at my live rock bits on the wetwebmedia.com website.
Bob Fenner>

Live Rock Color
Most recently in the last 3 months I have had new Fiji lice rock form Flying fish express, I'm trying to grow that nice purple algae that I see in all the show tanks, but I've yet to do it. What I have seen is a very light green hard algae and little red spur algae growing on my rock.....I Dose using Kalkwasser, I also use Strontium and iodine.....what can I do to get the purple algae and is there something wrong with the algae on the rocks now? Thanks, Scott
<Welllllll, a few things... but I would (be remiss and wrong to not state that I would just) start with some/a bunch of rock that had the purple types of coralline algae on it to start with. Mostly the better stuff hailing from the Marshall Islands has been/stays purple. To keep the corallines ripping requires about four (stop me before I add more) "things": high alkalinity (3.5 meq/l), high pH (8.2 or higher), high free calcium (400ppm plus... and a compliment of other alkaline earth materials: strontium and magnesium) and a dearth of encrusting algae pickers (like some hermit crabs)...
Hope this helps, and you may well have spurred me into writing that magnum dopus on "how to grow the best live rock"... Much more on this in a few months.
Bob Fenner, who doesn't mean to be mysterious, but is helping a friend to develop LR and Coral acclimation and "supplement" additives...>

Industry
Dear Sirs,
Per the posted Advertisement in Fiji newspapers this is a written submission to the:
Secretary,
Cabinet Sub-committee,
Coral & Live Fish Harvest,
P.O. Box 2131, Government
Buildings, Suva
As a long time writer/investigator in the ornamental marine trades in the United States, Japan and the Philippines, I call and count on you to listen with reason to the various "noises" rallying to their own agendas against the industry in your country.
    Having been around a long time, I have heard these self-proclaimed "saviors" coming to the "aid" of "poor, backward" countries to "help" themselves in masquerade of self aggrandizement. Beware of these people, and their programmes.
    I have an advanced degree in Fisheries Biology, and am a long-standing writer of underwater natural history essays and popular aquarium husbandry articles and books. My works are referenced and available through BIOSIS. Thank you for granting me this opportunity to give input to the issues of Reef Resource Utilization in Fiji.
    The real question of wild stocks use is "are they worth it"? Relative to the costs to local peoples, the environment and the overall economy of the exporting nation. These considerations of course need to made not only in terms of the costs of doing something (the collection), but also in light of the null hypothesis (the "costs" of doing nothing), and other opportunities (the costs of doing something else). Please allow me to elaborate:
    First off the issue of whether the action of collecting corals, live rock and marine fishes is worthwhile. Yes, on several counts; it brings skills, employment and monies into many peoples hands, tax revenue into the country, and use of resources like outbound air freight that would otherwise go underutilized.
    The null hypothesis, that is the cost of doing nothing: Will the resource (the reefs and their livestock) be better off without collection? Minimally. Will the participating island groups and their populations be better off not being involved in the ornamental trade? No. Such uses are perfectly in line with the careful use and stewardship of their sovereign waters. Proper collection practices are entirely sustainable, and remove very little bio-mass. Rock material removal impact is likewise minimal, and in some proven cases, beneficial to drainage, thoroughfare, and fish production. What would stopping collection practices do to improve the environment? Marginally, nothing.
    Lastly, what is sometimes called the business or opportunity cost, that is, what you might otherwise do given the same resources. This is a/the field that best exemplifies what a well-run countries government is doing, emphasizing where and when it should to place its collective concerns to best serve its people. Relative to other sources of reef damage, short and long term, how important is the selective removal of marine livestock from Fiji's waters? Compared with run-off from construction-grading, agriculture, sewerage it is nothing. Even the casual use of anchors and two-stroke (versus four) engines and jet-powered water vehicles are far more destructive (orders of magnitude). What is it then that gets so many people's attention about the live and curio use of reef resources? Their visibility! Because we are above water we notice much more the buildings, employees, and beautiful living material that we can see due to the businesses involved in the ornamental trades.
    I want to tell you, I am proud of my involvement in the pet-fish businesses, hobbies, and sciences. Over the last three plus decades, I have personally traveled to and actively participated in establishing and improving collecting facilities around the world, including Fiji. There are no better examples of careful use of reef resources than your country. Native people do the collecting, processing and shipping better than I've encountered anywhere. To their and Fiji's credit, they provide an excellent, healthy product that does uncountable good in bringing awareness of the living world to many people in several countries. All this at minimal real "costs" to the reef environment. Anyone who investigates the field will come to this conclusion.
    I will be re-visiting your country from October 11 till the 23rd, and will gladly meet with you to present my facts and opinions on the industry, hobby or sciences views on reef resource utilization.
Sincerely,
Robert (Bob) Fenner

Live Rock
I have a 180 gal salt tank with fish only and want to add live rock, but the
tank is already nicely decorated with dead corals. I want to add live rock
because its suppose to be healthier for fish. How much live rock should I add without eliminating the decorations I already have, should I eliminate my wet/dry? and what kind of lighting should I have on this tank currently and what kind should I have when I add the live rock. I am currently using a CPR sr2 in my sump, if I add live rock I will replace this with a Berlin skimmer rated for 250 gals.
<Lots of good questions regarding live rock. Overall, don't worry concerning where, how much live rock you add, or about your lighting... the types of life that can, will prosper under whatever regimen you have... place the LR under your other "dead" decor... it will become coated with live material over time. Keep your wet-dry, do get the Berlin skimmer. For much more on the issue see the article posted on Live Rock at wetwebmedia.com or the October 99 issue of the magazine FAMA. Bob Fenner>

Fish Dying
I am having a problem with keeping my algae eating fish alive (gobies, one tang, scooters, [also snails], etc.) They will typically flourish for about six to eight months and then die, with no outward sign of problems, with the possible exception of becoming lethargic near the end. I have had no problems with the other fish such as damsels, tomato clowns, and Dottybacks. Water quality parameters remain in the normal range, with zero nitrates and nitrites and only a trace of ammonia. I have had red algae in the tank that I vacuum out. Is there something that I am missing that might be affecting these particular fish?
<<David, your fish are most likely perishing from one of two problems or a combo. of the two: Slow starvation and/or some type of chronic toxicity. Both problems are common and both easy to solve. The best, most easy route to suggest is the addition of as much good live rock as you can afford. The really low density, high-branching stuff from places like Fiji and Tonga is what I'm getting at. Discounting any deficiency in your set-up or maintenance, the LR will ameliorate all sorts of chemical and physical inputs into your system that might be slowly poisoning your bottom dwellers... and at the same time, offer them some ready food organisms that will to a degree be self- replenishing... No room in your tank for (more) live rock? Build or buy a refugium sump and link it to your main/display tank. Maybe check out the archives of Aquarium Frontiers on Line for some ideas on how to arrange the latter. Don't give up my friend. Bob Fenner>>

Adding Live Rock
I have a 150 gallon tank with U.V., Skimmer, W/D and a Chiller. I have had the tank for 17 months. In it (for 13 months)

2 Tangs (Sailfin 3in.- Blue 3in)
3 Angels (Majestic 3in-Singapore 2in.-Coral Beauty 1.5in.)
7 Dam. (1 strip 2in.-3 blues 1 in. -3 unknown 2.5.in. each)
1 Tomato Clown 2in.
3 Butterfly ( 2 Raccoon 2 in. - 1 falcula 1.5in.)
5 Fire Shrimp
3 Cleaner Shrimp

I add Boyd's vitamins as recommended weekly, change 30% and clean the tank every four weeks. My fist question is, can I add 1 small Auriga Butterfly or two small Pacific Cleaner Wrasse? My water is crystal clear. Yet, my two Tangs have developed discoloration around the head and the Sailfin looks like he has tail rot and the upper fin seems like someone has bitten it off. Both are still eating and very active. Help, what can I do?
<<Chris, you may well have a combination. of "bad fish interactions" and semi-poor water quality going on in your system. I'd leave off on the proposed additions and put my big bongo bucks into some decent live rock. Your tank is pretty crowded and the Live Rock will help improve water quality and give livestock something else to nibble on. And consider taking the media out of the Wet/Dry. Bob Fenner>>

Live Rock Set Out to Dry?
I'm in the process of setting up a 75 gal. tank. I have about 130 pounds of Tonga rocks that have been sitting out dry for several days that are in the tank now. I assume that most micro-organisms are dead. What is the best way to cycle the tank? Do I start with damsels so they can get the cycle started?
<<Tom, you set the rock out to dry for several days? You may assume that much more than the "micro-organisms" are dead; all that was on the rock is more than likely gone. At this point I would rinse (may as well be just straight freshwater from the outdoors hose) what's left of the bio-crud off the now- dead rock and utilize as much of it for a "base" to place your new (that you'll be purchasing) cured rock on top of.
I would not put any fish livestock in with what this stinky mess is going to be for several weeks, and then try a few damsels. Very likely you will have to go through a few massive water changes to rid yourself of the decomposition matter that is going to further issue from the old "live" rock.
In future, let's talk over how to go about curing "raw" or "new" uncured live rock in detail. There are a few variations on a couple of themes, but none call for killing off most/all the attached biota by complete drying for days.
To repeat: don't toss the rock, but treat it as if it's mere dirty base rock and blast off what you can (don't bleach it), and utilize it as decor and support for your new rock (that you need to go buy). Bob Fenner>>

What constitutes a reef tank?
Do shrimp or live Fiji rock require special lighting?
<<Hey Kenny, this is part and parcel to the eight bazillion buck question! A reef tank sufficiently houses all types of organisms found in/on a reef... Or we could define such by their gear (the specialized lighting and filtration...), or...
Shrimps don't require special lighting, Fiji rock does (sort of). For practical purposes (what else is there?) you want enough strength (intensity), quality (temp. like 5,000 K or higher, CRI 90 or higher) duration 10, 12, more hours per day... of pleasing (the affective domain) looking illumination... Depending on size, depth of your system and pocketbook, this can be (once again for our discussion here) some sort of boosted full spectrum fluorescents, compact fluorescents or metal halides.... Want more specifics? Need more info. on your end. Bob Fenner>>

Live Rock Supplements
I have just received my second shipment of Fiji live rock from FFExpress. Both shipments have been excellent and I very pleased with the amount of life on both sets. However I am somewhat concerned about the inverts and soft corals living on the rocks. I have heard from some people that some trace elements such as iodine and strontium etc... need to be added to keep these inverts happy, while from other people I have heard this is not the case. Thanks in advance for any help you can provide. Also just in case you need this information, the tank is 75g with a trickle filter, 100g protein skimmer, 40w 6500k full spectrum light and 70 lbs of Fiji live rock.
<<Guy, with this set-up and amount/type of LR, I would either be adding useful supplements, doing my best otherwise to maintain water quality (filtration, circ., water changes with a good mix...) or adding (my best suggestion) a real calcium reactor (with carbon dioxide and magnetic valve/controller) to the system. Else wise your LR will not be/stay as fabulous as it might. Check into the reactors and get or build one.
Bob Fenner>>

Live Rock Additions
I am fairly new to the hobby and am interested in setting up my aquarium in small steps. We currently have some damsels, snails and blue legged crabs. If I add live rock now will it kill all of the current occupants? Also can I add small amounts of live rock until I arrive at the desired amount?
Lastly, If I do not currently want to support inverts that would call the live rock home do I need the suggested amount of light now or can I add the high intensity lights when I decide that it is time to add the inverts? Thanks a lot and I really appreciate your column.
<<Don, you can add very small amounts of CURED LR a little at a time, but it is far better to make sure and cure it yourself and introduce it all at once. Do you have another tank or safe container to effect the cure? Or to move your current livestock to while you're curing the rock in their tank?
Good query re: the light. Some decent intensity and quality of light is necessary. You don't state the size or shape of your system, but need to investigate thoroughly what your options are... in the short term (initial cost) and long term (electrical, lamp replacement)... Look into compact fluorescents first. Bob Fenner>>

Featured Sponsors: