Shelf Life For Mineral Mud/Substrates/Live Sand 8/3/09
To whomever,
<James here, Mike.>
Great site!
<Thank you, glad you enjoy.>
Many a night have I sat and read (after realizing that a successful marine aquarium could not be realized via LFS advice and intuition) until it felt like my eyeballs were on the verge of melting. However, I can't find
anything on the shelf life of mineral mud and live sand.
I ask because I have a five gallon pale 3/4 full with mineral mud, live sand, and non live sugar fine sand with the water level about an inch above the substrate (it is a long and boring story as to how it ended up in the
bucket). It has been sitting in my basement for about 3 months with no pumps, filters, or heaters, attached (basement stays at about 70-72 degrees).
Will I be able to use this as a substrate for my 30 gal refugium (for a 75 gallon, soon to be, reef tank) and if I will be able to, how long do I have (approx) to utilize it?
<If you stir up the sand and cannot detect any noxious odors, i.e. rotten egg smell, then it should be safe to use. I would filter with carbon for a week or so after moving this to your new tank. If odors are detected, you will need to wash/rinse the sand/mud in fresh water before using. There really is no defined shelf life, but the longer it sits, the less live it will become, eventually needing to be re-seeded. Have you read here?
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/livesand.htm>
Thanks in advance,
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Mike

Miracle Mud And C-Balance Not Balanced 2/16/09 ID Of Critters On Live Rock Hey guys, <Hello Steven> I have a few questions for you and I would also like you to ID something in my tank. Let me give you a tiny bit of background before I get started. I have a 55 gallon reef right now and I would like to upgrade to a 200 gallon reef when I move out :) . I am making some changes in my 55 gallon reef to test out some new things before I implement them on a larger scale. Right now I use the Berlin method of filtration with an AquaC Remora Pro for skimming, RowaPhos to remove the extra phosphates, and C-Balance to keep the calcium and alkalinity in check. In my new tank I would like to try to keep the maintenance cost down so I figured why not try out for Miracle Mud…I figured I could save some money on C-balance and maybe not even use a calcium reactor. Here is the problem: I put the Miracle Mud in the Aquafuge with some Chaeto and reduced the amount of C-balance that I added by around half. The calcium level is going up but the alkalinity is going down. My calcium is around 470 and the alkalinity is around 2.8 mEq/L. I called Ecosystem and they said that the mud won't boost the alkalinity as much as the calcium. I called Two Little Fishes and asked them if I could use more of part B to balance things out and they told me never to do that. They told me to always add equal amounts of part A and B. I have been using some reef buffer by Seachem to keep the alkalinity raised instead. Is this a viable long term solution? Will I end up problems down the line using the combination of C-balance, Miracle Mud, and Reef Buffer? <This is one of the reasons I do not like using Part A/B products. I'm for dosing a la carte, supplement individually when required. Your 2.8meq/L reading is just fine.> Next Question... I am using the Aquafuge medium with a 404 mini pump (for additional flow) and the 24 watt light that it comes with. Even with the extra flow from the 404 mini I am still having problems with algae covering the mud and Chaeto. It is getting so annoying that I am thinking of selling the fuge and going back to using C-balance exclusively. <The mud isn't what is causing the algae problem, it is excessive nutrients in the water. I've used the Ecosystem Fuge and I did not have any algae problems due to the Miracle Mud.> I sent you a picture of the Aquafuge so you can get an idea of my setup. Did I put too much Chaeto in the Aquafuge? <I think so, half of that would be good. You may want to read the FAQ's here on Miracle Mud filtration. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mudfiltrfaqs.htm> Should I add another mini pump to get some more flow? I am not really happy with this setup-up compared to the old method of just adding C-balance. Can you let me know where I went wrong? I don't want to have problems like this in my new setup. <You never mentioned nitrate levels, stocking levels...what are they?> Now I have one more question. I found a website that sells a 3 part Calcium-Alkalinity dosing product that is really really cheap. I could use it in the 200 gallon aquarium without worries that it will get excessively expensive. Can you let me know if it is a reputable brand? I can get 10 gallons of each part for 90 bucks. http://www.tbaquatics.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4&products_id=100 <I've never heard of it. Try posting this on one of the reef forums. On another note, I'm not a big fan of adding calcium and buffer simultaneously. Is better to dose on separate days.> If this is the same as C-balance then it's a great deal. <Can't help you much here, best to post. I prefer to use products like Seachem, Tropic Marin, etc, and buy in the larger sizes which makes it more economical to use.> Last thing I promise. There are two things in my tank I was hoping you could ID for me. I have some sponge looking things that are growing in low light areas of the tank and also little white circles that are appearing my rocks. I have included pictures. <Pictures are too blurry, but I’m thinking they are a sponge of some type.> Thanks! <You’re welcome. James (Salty Dog) Steve

- Opinions on Ecosystem filtration? -
Hello WWM crew:
<Good morning, JasonC here...>
I have been searching the web just looking for new information about reef keeping and I came across a link to the Ecosystem's website. I have heard of this system before and seen it implemented on tanks around the internet. I'm wondering if you have any opinions or experience with this system. <Plenty of opinions, not much experience.> I have a terrible hair algae problem in my tank right now and I am looking for anything that would help. <I'm not sure that an Ecosystem filter would help your algae problems.> Also, the site gave many comparisons and stated that much of the dosing and high-tech equipment that is commonly used is not really needed for the application. I would love this if it is true. I don't really have the money to invest in all the fancy equipment I see everyone else with. At least right now. <I think some of the material written about this method is marketing hype, but all in all, the system is quite viable and works well. I think additional equipment like calcium reactors and skimmers would only compliment an Ecosystem filter.>
They say this system is pretty much self sufficient. <In some respects.> I'm sure that your familiar with Mr4000 and his awesome tank. He uses this system and nothing else. <That's what he says.> He only doses with a Ca supplement as needed. No skimmer, no other reactors, nothing, and his tank is amazing!
Your insight is always appreciated and highly valued by myself and others I'm sure. <Just keep in mind that there are no true miracles...> Thanks for the time you put in!
Stephen Baker
<Cheers, J -- >

- Considering Ecosystem Filtration -
Hi,
This message is for PF. <Sorry, he's not around at the moment, perhaps I can help...> I see that you maintain a tank using the ecosystem method. <I know that he does... many people do.> I am contemplating doing this but I am not yet totally convinced. please see here:
I'm planning a 150 gal. fish only coldwater cowfish tank. I'm just wondering if it will have enough filtration. please tell me what you think or would change.
~ 150 gal tank no sand or rock <Should have something in there for decoration, places to hide/sleep etc.>
~ this flows to the first sump which is an ecosystem. Should I keep the bioballs? <The ones that are included with the Ecosystem are part of the 'system' and should be left in place - they are not wet/dry but constantly wet - not a nitrate factory.>
~ this flows to the 2nd sump a 6" DSB  (since I don't know if ecosystem will handle the load I'm adding this) <Ecosystem is capable of handling tanks of any size - is a factor of how large a sump you put it in. A marine tank of renown, Mr. 4000 had a 4,000 gallon tank running with Ecosystem filters.>
~ this will then flow to a main sump which will house my protein skimmer and pump.
As you can see I'm not totally sure how I want to do this so any help would be greatly appreciated. <I think you are on the right track.>
Peace
Sal
<Cheers, J -- >

I Just Wasted My Money - 'Fuge Question
Hello
I have a refugium that I want to set up to an existing tank. I bought some Mineral mud and macro media that CaribSea sells as a set. Well it says on the package to let sit for 2 days before turning on pumps and then let tank cycle which tells me I just wasted my money. Can I rinse this?? <Probably not.> Will it hurt the tank to let it cloud up and clear up eventually??. <Don't think it will 'hurt' anything but some portion of your substrate will end up in your filters. I'm guessing the stuff is powder-fine.> And if I am outta luck with this stuff what do you recommend for me to use to add a refugium sump to an existing reef tank?? <Just fill the thing and let it sit, as the instructions suggest. Get it running for real in a couple of days and all will be fine.>
Joe
<Cheers, J -- >

- Mud Selection -
Greetings and salutations WWM crew,
I have several tanks (FW and SW) and am doing a little research into setting up a Coral/clam tank. I have decided to use a mud filter. From what I have read, the ecosystem mud is merely dirt with a few additives. I was reading on biosediment and mineral muds and happened to look up and see a bag of Onyx Sand under one of the freshwater tanks. Has anyone ever tried this as a mineral component to a mud filter and what would your thoughts on such an attempt be, if you don't mind sharing them? <To my knowledge, no one has yet used this stuff for a mud sump - I don't know enough about this substrate to say whether or not it would make a suitable substrate for a mud sump.>
lee
<Cheers, J -- >

F.O.R.M. opinion
dear crew of WWM,
I just have a quick question about a product I purchased called F.O.R.M, Funky Old Reef Mud, from www.marcweissco.com and I was just wondering how much would you suggest that I put in my 8 gallon tank, and if it is possible to OD with it.  Thank you very much
-Randy
>>I wouldn't use it at all. IMO, Marc Weiss products amount to 'snake oil' and usually only part you from money. FORM and other MW products make astounding claims without any data to back them up. Avoid them like the plague.
Rich>>

Mixing In Mud (Mud on Top of Aragonite)
Hello Bob or Crewmate,
<Scott F. at the keyboard tonight!>
I have recently set up a reef tank with two refugia. Both the aquarium and refugia have about 4 inches of fine ESV aragonite that I have inoculated with live sand containing invertebrates from 2 different web vendors. I just bought live mud from Reefer's Madness - when they called it "mud", I had no idea they meant "MUD" - and placed it on top of the aragonite in one refugium so that there is about 1 inch of dense, gooey black mud on top of the 4 inches of aragonite. Is there a possibility of creating an oxygen-free or oxygen-depleted zone in the aragonite that will kill the tiny invertebrates in the aragonite?
<Always a possibility when you are putting additional substrate on top of existing material. However, if you spread the mud out enough, it may not be too much of a problem at all>
I can see tiny red bristleworms in the aragonite and I don't want to kill them. Will the invertebrates in the aragonite avoid the gooey mud?
<Some will avoid the mud, others will be happy to mingle into the gooey stuff...Not a really precise answer- but that's the simple truth!>
If so, should I make a "mess" and mix the aragonite with the mud? Thank you, Joseph Rouse
<Good question. If it were me, I'd be careful about disturbing the sand bed. At this stage of the game, I'd just leave the mud alone and keep an eye on the life in the sandbed for any adverse reactions. Best of luck to you! Regards, Scott F.>

Mud and the refugium
Ok I'll pass on the Miracle Mud.. got that. You spoke of Dead Sea Mud as beneficial... What I find is for cosmetic human uses. I am looking for Dead Sea Mud for my refugium. Did I misunderstand the reference? 
<Mmm, I do think Red Sea (company) is now marketing such a product>
The discussion was about refugium mud?? Where do I find a source to buy some for my refugium? What do you think about the benefit of GARF mud?
Thank You,
Alya
<GARF's products are almost uniformly inferior... some of them outright hoaxes. Look for EcoSystem Aquarium IMO... The various etailers, most larger retailers sell this, other mud products... by CaribSea, Kent... Bob Fenner>

Mud 8/15/05
WWM crew-
<Chadd>
Thanks for all of the help over the years.  Your last reply to my question about a suffering Pectinia sp. really helped.  It has finished healing and was puffed up really big this morning.
<Ah, good>
I have read though a lot of pages on Miracle Mud-MM and refugiums.  
Currently, I have a 35 gal refugium on a 140gal tank, and around 250lbs of live rock and 4-5in DSB which was set up in the beginning of 2004.
Most of the live rock is over five years old from my old tank.  
<A good idea to augment, switch a bit of this out annually>
There is mix of 10 lbs of "Mineral Mud" (that's right I said Mineral Mud it's by CaribSea, it was cheaper) and 10-15lbs of live sand (to get it started).  
There is about an inch of this mix in the refugium, with 20lbs of live rock, Caulerpa, Chaetomorpha, bristle worms, and worms of  'pods and "bugs".  My Caulerpa is from Indo Pacific, it has long 12" feather leaves and it is growing pretty well.  My refugium is not covered in Caulerpa, but I think that is because of the low nutrient levels.  I skim 24/7/365.  My skimmer produces a dark waste about 1-2 cups per week. And I do regular 15 gal water changes each week.
My question has to do with adding Miracle Mud.  I would like to add this to my refugium.  A friend runs his tank with no skimmer and Miracle MUD in his refugium.  He does not add any calcium based products (like bio calcium or Kalk) to his system and his tank is flourishing.  He says that the MM provides all the calcium and mineral supplements he needs.  
Is this true?  It must be since his tank is incredible.
<Mmm, maybe for him... I encourage folks to supplement biominerals and use skimmers with Leng's Mud>
How would I go about adding MM from the 20lbs of live sand/mineral mud mix?
<Could add it right on top, or mix in...>
I read that you recommend live sand or MM, but not both.  Should I just add MM slowly over a period of a week?
<Could>
I would like to take advantage of MM if it does replace adding Kalkwasser and bio calcium.  
<Again... if you have much in the way of biomineralizing life in this system, you should test, will very likely have to supplement...>
How can I accomplish this?
I was thinking about dividing the bottom of the refugium into two different sections with a piece of Plexiglas.  Moving over the substrate that is establish and adding the Miracle Mud to the newly created spot in the refugium.
<Sounds like a good approach>
  One of my major concerns is a Cyano outbreak.
What do you think about this process?
1)  Remove live rock, algae, as many 'pods as possible into a few buckets.
2)  Shift the sand/mud mix over to one side and  insert the Plexiglas.
3)  Siphon 1/2 the cloudy/detritus water, let things settle and siphon the new bare spot of all remaining detritus down to about one to two inches.
4)  Add Miracle Mud to the new bare spot and slowly add water from the main tank and replenishing new water directly to the main tank.
5)  Let things settle down again and then add rock, algae, and pods back into the refugium.
6)  Do regular water changes over the next few weeks and regular maintenance (clean skimmer, change carbon weekly, and add phosphate remover if necessary).
<Okay>
As I said, my refugium is teaming with life.  Should I just leave things alone?  
<Up to you>
  I would like to get about 15lbs of MM added to the refugium.  
The main reason for wanting to add MM is for the mineral supplements for my tank, which is mainly SPS.  And because I want to spend my hard earned money on MUD and battle a Cyano/algae outbreak for a month or two (Hopefully not, but I know that it is very possible).
Sorry for the long email, but maybe this will help other people with the process of overhauling their refugiums.
<I hope so as well>
Thanks,
Chadd Elliott
<Bob Fenner... who generally is of the opinion, "if it ain't broke...">