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FAQs About Sump/Filters Design/Engineering 4
Related FAQs: Sump Design 1,
Sump Design 2, Sump Design 3, Sump
Design 5 Sump Design 6
Sump Design 7, Sump Design 8, &
Sumps/Filters 1, Sumps/Filters 2,
Sumps 3, Sumps 4,
Sumps 5, Sumps 6,
Sumps 7,Sumps 8,
Sumps 9,
Sumps 10, Rationale,
Construction, Sump Components,
Pumps/Circulation, Maintenance,
Refugiums, Plenums in Reef Filtration,
Marine System Plumbing, Holes
& Drilling 1, Durso Standpipes,
Overflow Boxes, Bubble Trouble,
Plumbing Noise, Make Up Water
Systems,
Marine Aquarium Set-Up, Algal Filtration
in General, Mud Filtration 1,
Related Articles:
Pressure Locking Sump Baffles; Welcome to the World of Versatility!
By Joshua McMillen, Refugiums,
Marine Filtration, Reef Filtration,
Mechanical, Physical,
Marine System Plumbing, Fish-Only
Marine Set-up,
FOWLR/Fish and Invertebrate Systems, Reef
Systems, Coldwater Systems,
Small Systems, Large Systems,
Refugiums, | 
Porites rus... shown here in HI.
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Plumbing a Second Sump Remotely 1/24/07
Hi,
We
have a 50 gallon sump in the garage, separated from the 180 gallon
display by a wall. We are adding grow out tanks and a large refugium to
the garage area. I need to expand the water holding capacity of the
sump to ensure it does not overflow.
<Good. Glad you are aware>
The trouble is, the only place to connect a bigger tank requires that
the plumbing make a 90 degree turn and go across the wall about 40 feet.
<With how much drop over this run?>
I would gravity flow into the
second sump (100 gallon Rubbermaid stock tank) from one of the
refugiums.
<Again... how much height difference? Serviced by what
sort, size of plumbing?>
I am hoping if I connect it to the main
sump with 2” pvc pipe the two return pumps in the main sump will draw
the excess water out of the remote sump back to the main tank for
continuous flow. The pumps are BlueLine pressure rated at about 1000
gph each (probably each pulls about 500 gph after head pressure). Will
the pumps from the main sump to the display be able to pull water
through a 2” pipe from that distance with the 90 degree turn plus
another 90 degree turn to attach
it to the stock tank?
<Mmm, w/o
a careful drawing of all this, am hesitant to reply... The size of
plumbing need not, should not be any larger diameter than the
discharge/volute of the pumps>
The remote stock tank just needs
enough flow to keep it from getting stagnant and will have about 400 gph
gravity flowed in from the refugium.
Thanks
in advance for your help! Plumbing is not my thing!
Doug
<Make a drawing of all this... ahead of cutting, buying anything... and
show it to your LFS AND fellow local marine aquarists (do you belong to
a club?) and/or send to us for review. Bob Fenner>
911..... I
think... Not ready for prime-time reefing 12/31/06
Hi
Guys
<Does this term include women? Am wondering>
I just
realized by reading your forums that I may have a serious situation.
Here's what happened. Late afternoon yesterday (Fri Austin TX) the power
went out due to a storm and I had to drain some of my sump water so it
wouldn't overflow. (I'm new at this and didn't realize all I had to do
was close the ball valve)
<Actually... not a good idea to have to
rely on having to adjust anything here... The sump should be able to
handle the transit volume should a/the pump or electric fail... mark the
maximum height of water (starting with the power off, the sump filled
up), with the power on, and don't fill the sump beyond this>
Yes I
know my sump is supposed to handle this situation but my 'aquarium guy'
decided to remove the bio balls and replace them with live rock rubble
to try and eliminate the microbubble problem. This doesn't work and the
displacement for the LR vs. bio balls has made the sump too small to
handle the drainage. I'm going back to bio balls to fix this prob but
that's got nothing to do with this).
<...>
When the power came
back on the pump sucked out the intake chamber and in turned sucked up a
bunch of air before I could get the water back in fast enough.
<Ditto>
I didn't think fast enough to pull the plug. Hard knocks.
Now I've got so many micro bubbles from both intakes to the tank that it
looks like intense smoke!! I've tried plugging and unplugging the pump
many many times to avail. I just found out this is dangerous to critters
even tho they are minimal because it's a 8 week tank. I do have a nice
size Goniopora and a flame scallop (I didn't know these shouldn't be in
such a new tank and low survival)
<Very poor choices...>
and
cleaning crew. No fish.
I've got a 90 ga. AGA with 15 ga. Eco-system
sump.
<Too small...>
No skimmer.
<I'd add>
Also a
Aqua-Euro chiller tee'd into my supply. The pump is an Iwaki WMD40RLXT
which I was going to replace with a Pan World 100PXX because its quieter
(I hope) and I've got about 13 ft head pressure due to 15- 90's and 3
ball valves. It's a 4 ft rise to the intakes to the tank. The Iwaki
doesn't even move the water in the tank. I have a Rio 600 to do it.
<Watch this pump... easily burn out>
Next prob: Due to the holiday I
can't get my replacement pump until Wed. I'm worried about my critters
etc. but what can I do?
Any help will be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Lorie
<... fill the sump, bleed the air out of the
line/pump (by turning off and on if that's all your plumbing will
allow)... and read re sizing sumps to tanks, plumbing... Here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marsetupindex2.htm
Where you lead
yourself.
Bob Fenner> Re: 911..... I think... air trapped
in pb... sump f'? 1/2/07
Hey Bob:
<Lorie>
Yep, when
I say 'guys' it includes gals too since I am one.
<Ahh! I do think
this noun has "evolved" in our language... to include both genders as
you state>
I did as you said and tried filling the sump etc..... and
I'll be... if it didn't work and the -----bubbles went away after a few
times by playing with the ball valve going to the chiller and plugging
and unplugging the pump. Thank you so much!!!
It's like you've done
this before.
<Ah, good>
I'll also take your advice on a bigger
sump! It will be nice to sleep at night. It also looks like I've got a
lot of research to do to improve plumbing.
<Yes my friend>
I
knew I was going to take flak on my ill choices of scallop and coral,
but I want you to do that help is already here. I got your and Anthony's
book on "Reef Invertebrates" and will never buy another thing without
exhaustive research on compatibility.... no matter what the LFS folks
say!!
<Outstanding>
Unfortunately I got it after the above
purchases. I'm enjoying it very much and appreciate another fellow beer
drinker!! Cheers!
Happy New Year!!
Lorie
<Heeee! Here's to
us! Bob Fenner> Sump Setup? 12/11/06
Good Day
to you all,
<Hello Clinton! Tim answering your question today...
Just out of curiosity, where in Norway do you live? I spent 6 1/2 years
living in Stavanger, on the west coast... Clinton does not strike me as
a typical Norwegian name... Anyway, to your question.>
My name is
Clinton and I live in Norway, Europe and have found so many conflicting
pieces of information that my head is in a spin.
I have a 400 l.
marine aquarium (mixed reef) mainly soft corals, fish( mainly smaller
fish, gobies, dart and fire-fish, wrasse, three tangs, shrimps, hermits
etc)
My question is this;
I have a decent skimmer that is able
to handle the bioload of a 500 l. tank, But I would like to set up a
sump, and try and free up the sides of the tank.
I have ordered a
U.V filter and an inline filter that I will use for ROWAphos.
Apart
from this I have so many conflicting suggestions on other necessary or
'' should have'' hardware items for the sump, I would like to know if
you have any tried and tested set up guidelines or at least what is not
advisable to get?
I have a 120l. tank that I had thought of using as
a sump, is this large enough or should I get a larger tank.
<You
will find much information on sumps on the wetwebmedia website. The
reason for the confusion is that there really is no one right way of
setting up a sump. The 120l tank will be sufficient for your aquarium,
but what you put into it will depend largely on what you hope to achieve
from having a sump. If it is nitrate removal you seek, then consider a
DSB and macro algae refugium, whereas if all you want is to free up the
aquarium from clutter, then the sump will act simply to increase water
volume and provide a convenient hidden place for your equipment. What is
it you hope to achieve from having a sump? Decide this and the advice
will be less conflicting in relation to your particular needs... but
only less, for there is still much debate as to the best method of
achieving certain effects. Let me know what you are setting the sump up
for, and I will try to point you into the right direction. Ha en god
dag! Snakkes.>
Thanking you in advance
Clinton Re: Sump
Setup? 12/13/06
Good Day to you Tim.
<And to you!>
Well I am not Norwegian by birth I Have only been in the country for 5
years. I live in Horten, which is about an hour and a half south of
Oslo.
Well the main reason that I want to get a sump up and going is
to work at getting rid of nitrates.
I have heard a lot about this
miracle mud that people use in a sump, (more horror stories than
anything else) is there any other filters, reactors, or such like that I
should get? or that you can recommend?
<The miracle mud works by
encouraging the growth of macro algae in the sump. You can grow macro
algae in your tank for nitrate export without the use of miracle mud
which, as you note, is the subject of much debate. You should also
consider the use of a DSB - much info on this on the website - as a
means of reducing your nitrates. Lastly, you could consider purchasing a
sulphur (or other type of) denitrator to reduce your nitrate problems.
An excellent denitrator is produced by Korallin, though it is by no
means cheap. I would suggest you use the tank you previously suggested
with a strong 24hr light, have a DSB in this sump and grow macroalgae.
This is the most natural and best way of eliminating nitrate problems
and, depending on the what is in your main tank, may also act as a
beneficial refugium where you can grow food for tangs or copepods for
fish such as the mandarin dragonet. Any further questions, please do not
hesitate to contact me. Hilsen, Tim>
Tusen Hjertlig takk for hjelpen
Tim
Clinton A Couple Sump Questions - 11/07/06
Hi
there,
<<Hello>>
I currently have a saltwater 55-gallon FOWLR
tank. I'd like to add a sump and turn it into a reef but the only tank
I'd be able to fit under would be a 15-gallon high.
<<Mmm, same
"footprint" as a standard 10-gallon tank...not much space to work with
but may be do-able>> <Actually two inches wider. RMF>
The doors on my
stand are split right in the middle of the tank secured to a bar holding
the tank up, leaving only enough room to get a 10 gallon in there.
<<No chance of placing a larger vessel behind/beside the stand?>>
Only other option is to drain & move the tank (do not want to do) or
sell & buy bigger RR tank.
<<Hmm, do rethink moving the tank now if
that would allow you to go forth with a better system (why be
disappointed with your setup after it's all said and done). As for
going bigger I'm always a fan of that>>
I'd like to know 2 things
about sumps. Is there any chance a 30-35 gallon hexagon tank be able to
be used as a sump standing just about right next to the 55 gal long?
<<Sure...you can use about anything that holds water and is non-reactive
with same, but you'll find a rectangular shape to be easier to configure
(install baffles) if needed>>
I do have a hang on refugium on the
tank now, but it only holds about 6 gallons of water. Another question,
if the hex is possible, is there anyway a sump can be kept very clean &
not unsightly?
<<With LOTS of maintenance...maybe. But you'll
probably find it to be more work than it's worth>>
I do have a
skimmer & overflow box, and planning on getting a Phosban reactor as
well.
Thanks for your help.
<<My pleasure, EricR>>
Re: Sump Design 11/7/06
Bob, I took your advice and did a
lot of research over the past several weeks :) I started fresh with
a whole new design, which I attached to this email.
<I see it>
The only thing that remains the same is my 180 gallon oceanic tank.
I now have a Bubble king 250 external protein skimmer for my
tank. The skimmer is powered by the red dragon pump. I will have
to use a feeder pump as well,
<?>
because of the lower flow
I will be using in this design. I am considering the Blueline 30 HD
pump (590 GPH @ 0 feet), but do to room constraints I will need to
put an elbow before the intake of the pump. I am considering using
a split sump design to allow room for a larger refugium and also a
decent return section. The sump itself will be cast from 3/8 inch
acrylic. The bottom half of the sump will be 41.25 inches long, by
20 inches wide, by 12 inches tall. The skimmer section will be
rather small because of the external skimmer and the external
pump. I was planning on having the skimmer section be 4 inches
long, by 19.25 inches wide. Then, I was considering placing a media
chamber attached to the first baffle. This would allow me to hold
carbon and other media if I decide to use it. The first and third
baffle will be 4 inches tall. The second baffle will be 5 inches
tall, and one inch off the base of the sump, making the baffle 6
inches high. There will be 2 inches of space before baffle #1 and
baffle #2.
This will also be the area of drainage from the
refugium as well. There will be only 1 inch of space between baffle
#2 and baffle #3. The return area will be 29 inches by 19.25
inches. I plan to keep the water level in the sump at 5.5
inches. This will allow for a little more than 13 gallons of water
in the return area of the sump. The refugium will be attached on
top of the sump. It will be 29.25 inches long by 19.25 inches
high. The refugium itself will be 10 inches tall, however the drain
will be at the 9-inch level. The refugium will hold nearly 22
gallons of water. I plan direct 75% of the overflow into the
skimmer area of the sump and 25% of the overflow into the refugium
area. I will use a low flow powerhead for additional flow in the
refugium.
<Likely not necessary>
I am not sure how much
flow to use in this sump design, but was considering using around
500 GPH. I would like to use a BlueLine pump for the return as
well, and once again would have to place an elbow before the intake
because of room constraints. I would love to hear any feedback and
thoughts if this is a good sump/refugium design and what would be
optimal flow through this design as well. Again, thanks for all
your help, it is very much appreciated :)
<Reads as okay... I
strongly suspect that you will have another revelation re such
designs about the time you're done installing this one... BobF>
Lou | 
|
Re: Sump Design 11/10/06
Bob,
<Mmm, yes>
As I am
sure you know by now, trying to finalize my sump design to get it into
production. I think I was able to make a combination of my last two
design so this sump would not be so bulky. Also, in doing this thought
of a new book idea, sump designs for dummies 101 :)
<Heee! Perhaps
not a best-seller, but I'd buy a copy>
My biggest problem with doing
a sump and refugium is lack of room, fitting it under my 180 tank.
<How about above? Or to the sides?>
Most designs won't be
practical and won't have enough room. The split sump was the only thing
I figured that had a shot, but was wondering if I would be able to
combine the return and refugium in one area.
<Yes, could>
I
attached a sketch of what I was thinking. I could not find any designs
on the website that didn't have raised baffles after the fuge, so was
not sure if it was not a good idea do
<due>
to micro bubbles.
<Mmm, the baffles are more for providing a constant level on their
fore-sides...>
I am still a novice at all this :) I was going to
place the baffles in between the skimmer section and the refugium to cut
down the micro bubbles and then place a small baffle at the end of the
refugium so the sand would not get stuck in the return pump.
<Sounds
good>
This would allow enough flow so my skimmer would be able to be
gravity fed as well, thus eliminating the need for a feeder pump. That
way save on electricity in the process as well. The outside of the sump
would measure 42 inches long, by 20 inches wide, by 16 inches tall. The
skimmer compartment would be 4.75 inches wide. I then have a media
compartment attached to the first baffle, this way I can put carbon or
filter floss if I decide to. The first and third baffle would be 8
inches tall. The second baffle would be 9 inches tall and 1 inch off
the base of the sump, making it stand 10 inches high. This would be the
approximate height of the water level as well (or close to it). Then, I
would have a 24-inch long refugium section, with a 2.5-inch live sand
bed.
<Mmm, I'd make this deeper... see WWM re DSBs... physical
make-up>
The refugium would hold roughly 20 gallons of water. Then
I have the 5-inch baffle simply to spates the sand from the return
pump. The small return section would be 4.75 inches long; however, with
the refugium it would be 28.75 inches long, thus holding 23 gallons of
water. I would need to run 500 gallons per hour through this sump in
order to power my skimmer.
<Mmm, this is a bunch, perhaps too much
flow/turnover through the refugium itself>
My main concern with the
design would be micro bubbles, and if passing 500 GPH through the design
would be a good idea. I really appreciate all the help you and Anthony
have giving me on this design. Without your help I would have a half a
dozen sumps, and probably still not have one good one. Hopefully, I
won't have to make to many more modifications, as my wife is wondering
why I am spending so much time on the computer...
<Better by far to
"do all this" on paper, the computer now, rather than re-do the actual
work later. Mmm, you have read through OzReef.org, seen other commercial
sump/refugium designs at shops I take it. Bob Fenner> Reef Ready
Aq... or not - 10/28/06
Hi there,
I have a quick
question that I'm sure you get all the time. I am setting up my new 125
gallon All-Glass Reef ready aquarium. I am using a 20 gallon aquarium
for a sump with the BioRocker. I have all the plumbing set up to my
sump as was shown to me. I am confused on how the sump will not
overflow and drain my tank in the event of a power outage.
<... depends on how the tank is/was drilled, plumbed... How much water
is in the system total...>
I've read similar questions and I
still need a clearer explanation. I know you guys can help.
Thank
You
Aaron
<... What? Please read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/marsetupindex2.htm
The articles and FAQs
on plumbing, overflows... Bob Fenner> Re: Sump Design
10/6/06
Bob, thank you so much for your input. I have been
reading like a mad man this week. You and Anthony have been
terrific. I have decided to scrap the sump design because it looks to
be a poor design. I was wondering if you could refer me to a company
that can custom design and build a sump and refugium to fit my specific
needs if I give them the space I have to work with. I would like this
to be a professional job instead of me designing a sump with such
limited experience...
<There are quite a few... I would elect to
have your own design gone over, and a more-local fabricator knock out
what you want specifically... but will mention a couple of outfits/folks
am familiar with, that make commercial units of worth... CPR and
Tenecor... have websites... Again, if it were my money, system, I'd
invest the time to read over what is posted on WWM re sumps, refugiums
and related plumbing, other issues... Bob Fenner>
Sump Design/Seahorse Air Bubble Malady - 07/25/06
Hi WWM Crew,
<<Hello Diana>>
This is my first time posting a question, but have
been using your site to answer many of my other questions, Thank you for
all the info.
<<Is our pleasure>>
Here is my question... I have
a 150 Gallon Pre-Drilled tank that is running on a Wet/Dry system (I'm
also running a Canister Filter that works together with my Chiller) and
I want to convert to a refugium with a Skimmer build in (was thinking
about the ASM G-2 or 3) and I was hoping you could send me to a good
link with diagrams etc. on how to build your own. I have a 29 Gallon
tank that I want to use for this purpose.
<<Ah yes, have made
several myself. Very easy to do...the simplest version is to merely add
some baffles for a bubble trap and to define the dimension/water height
of the skimmer and pump chambers. This site has representations of
several different styles that should give you some good ideas:
http://www.melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html >>
One other question if
you don't mind, I also have a Seahorse tank for over a year now and I
noticed today that my Male seahorse has an air bubble in his belly and
when he lets go of his rock he ends up upside down.
<<Not good>>
I have read somewhere before that you can manually expel the air from
their belly, do you have any experience with this?
<<Have heard of
this but have no practical experience/exposure re...try reading here (http://www.wetwebmedia.com/seahorsdisfaqs.htm)
and among the associated links. I'm sure I’ve seen this addressed on
the site>>
Thank You so much for your help and keep up the good
work, Diana
<<Will try. Regards, EricR>>
Filtration/Berlin System 7/2/06
Do you know where I
can find diagrams to build my own Berlin system, sump and all?
<This
link will lead you to a complete diagram of LifeReef's Berlin System. http://www.lifereef.com/berlin.html
Hope it helps Can't seem to search our site today for additional
info. James (Salty Dog)>
Keenan Micro bubbles returning
from sump 5/2/06
Hello, thanks once again for
your site... lots of great info! I am setting up a 125gal reef tank
with a 30 gal sump. I divided the sump into 3 compartments.
Water drains from the tank through a 2" bulkhead ( 2 90's and a 45 elbow
and pipe) into the first chamber which houses an EV-180 powered by a mag
7.
(tight space in here, nothing but the 2" return pipe, skimmer and
mag 7 pump)
It then flows over, under, over 3 baffles
into the center section (housing a Via-aqua 3600 return pump). Baffles
are 1" apart (maybe a bit less) and
center has 1" space under
it. The return plumbing has a T and a ball valve so I can send some of
the water into the 3rd chamber (planning on using as a
refugium).
the reason I set it up this way was so I can run 8" water depth in the
first chamber, let the return chamber fluctuate a bit with
evaporation, and run 14" depth in the refugium ( planning on 5-6"
aragonite and some live rock in the fuge) this seemed like a great setup
but I'm
having lots of bubbles making their way into the return
chamber of the sump.
If I open the ball valve all the way so most of
the water is coming back into the sump and not being returned to the
tank, then my bubble woes go
away ( seems like not enough water flow
returning to the tank though)
<May have to increase this some other
way...>
Should I change my design and put the fuge in the middle and
the return at the end (chamber 1 would then be 9", fuge would be 8"
deep, and return
chamber would be 6-8 depending on evaporation).
this would give the bubbles more time to pop before getting to the
return chamber ( going through the
fuge and another set of 3
baffles)... but I'd lose some overall water volume in the fuge.
<This is one approach... might want to experiment with a bit of
mechanical media (large/r cell sponge, Dacron batting...) twixt the
baffles as well... to see if this will solve the bubble issue... will
have to be serviced often though>
I'm also in the process of
plumbing a Mag12 on a closed loop so total water turnover in the tank
should not be too big of a concern)
<Oh! Good...>
Thanks again,
Mike
<All possibilities, plans sound good Mike. Bob Fenner>
Re: micro bubbles returning from sump 5/2/06
Thanks so much for the reply... I'll try some batting in-between the
baffles and see if that helps (I'm assuming I can get it at the pet
store, anywhere
else that would have it cheaper, like a
fabric/sewing store?)
<Ah, yes... the latter is best>
Is my sump
design flawed by having the return chamber so close to the raw water
from tank/skimmer chamber?
<Mmm, no...>
One other question, the
2" drain pipe entering the sump has about a 13" vertical drop straight
into the sump, is there a better way to have thee
water enter the
sump to help get rid of the bubbles?
<A tee on the end may be of
service here... as might a perforated "receiving chamber" that allows
bubbles to coalesce...>
I did put a 4" piece of PVC around it so it
dumps into the 4" and then flows out the top, this seemed to help some,
I need to cap the bottom of the 4" though so the
bubbles are forced
out the top and don't blow down and around the bottom, maybe putting a
small piece of live rock in the bottom to keep it in place.
Thanks
again, Mike
<Welcome. BobF>
"Best" Sump/Refugium Setup? -
04/16/06
Greetings from England,
<<Back at ya from South
Carolina!...but I did live in Ipswich for 3 1/2 years...>>
I am in
the process of spending the (vast) amount required to setup a FOWLR
setup.
<<Indeed mate...and a bit more "vast" over there than here!>>
This will be my first marine tank, so I'm doing an awful lot of reading
first and your site has proved by far the best resource
on the net.
<<Thank you for this...but please don't limit yourself to a single
source/opinion>>
My tank will be 1,200 L aprox (a 7 foot tank) and
my prime objectives for it are for it to be as fish friendly and easy to
maintain as humanly possible.
<<Ahh...a "dream" tank then?
<grin>...>>
I would also like to build it to be as quiet as
possible.
<<Married, eh?>>
My questions relate to the filtration
and general "underneath" set up of the tank.
<<Is that a "technical"
term? <G> >>
After a few re-designs, I THINK I've settled on the
following.
<<Alrighty then>>
My problem is that there are so
many options that I'm drowning in choices!
<<But at least you have
"choices">>
I wonder if you could look over the following and answer
a few questions?
<<Be happy to>>
The tank will have between 100
and 120KG's of live rock in it, with live sand to maybe 1" deep. This
will be supplemented with another 2" or so of "normal" sand which will
hopefully be colonized over time.
<<It will...but might I suggest
you add 3"-4" of the "dry" sand, and place the "live" sand on top of
this>>
Beneath the main tank, there will be two cheap 3 foot tanks.
Each will be in three sections.
<<ok>>
The main tank will flow
into the first small tank, which will be a sump. This will have crushed
LR in the first area, which will hopefully act as some sort of crude
mechanical filter.
<<Some settling will occur here, yes>>
My
other thought would be Lava rock in this position.
<<Mmm no, I don't
recommend this...possible introduction of unwanted elements (metals,
etc.)...stick with the live rock rubble>>
This then overflows into
the main section, which will hold the skimmer, heaters, any dosing gear
I eventually buy etc., etc.. There is then a return area to the main
tank.
<<Were this me...I would move the skimmer to the first chamber
to catch/process the raw surface water from the tank, and move the
crushed rock to the center chamber>>
From the first chamber in the
sump, there will be a low velocity (3-4x turn over) feed into a separate
'fuge. This again will contain crushed LR in the first (small) section,
and then have a 20" x 7" deep DSB/Miracle Mud area, with macro algae
above it. This overflows to a third, small section that will feed back
into the third chamber of the sump, meaning that anything that the 'fuge
generates does not get skimmed.
<<An important consideration...>>
This will be lit on a reverse cycle to the main tank, to avoid major
fluctuations in stats, etc. Firstly, does this seem suitable?
<<With a few caveats, yes>>
Have I missed anything major?
<<The
placement of the skimmer...in my opinion>>
Secondly, some more
specific questions.
1) I can't decided between MUD and a DSB. I
read many opinions on each saying that one is better than another.
<<That's opinions for ya! <grin> >>
Is there a "right" answer?
<<I have not used a "mud" substrate myself...but neither have I
heard/read anything to convince me to switch from a good ole' sugar-sand
DSB>>
If not, which would be less maintenance/better for the fish?
<<I don't like the idea of having to periodically "replace" portions of
a mud bed...would much rather just "top off" my DSB as it "shrinks" from
dissolution. As for which is "better"? If employed/maintained as
intended...either I think>>
2) I have read that DSB's benefit from
being turned over, and lots of suggestions as to what makes the best
"turner-over", with everything from brittle stars to gob’s suggested.
<<Mmm...not "turned-over" as such, maybe just slightly "disturbed" (or
maybe I'm thinking about myself...), though a sugar-fine DSB with
adequate water flow will do just fine on its own
(worms/micro-crustaceans)>>
What would be your personal
recommendations?
<<I like/suggest less invasive species than some
others here. I DON'T like sand-sifting starfish, much too efficient at
what they do...will quickly deplete the biota in your sand bed...my
opinion of course. Sand-sifting/sleeper gobies can be of benefit, but
many of these are far more destructive than I like (Genus
Valenciennea). My suggestion would be a bullet/dragon/brown-barred goby
(Amblygobius phalaena). The gobies don't tend to dig as "deeply" as the
Valenciennea species in my experience, nor do they seem as likely to
grab mouthfuls of sand and "crop dust" the corals high up on the
rock...though sand/bottom dwelling critters will get a sprinkle or
two...but then these usually have mechanisms for dealing with it>>
3) Bob states in his book that Ozone is the best thing to add to a
system, and so I am planning to add it into the skimmer. However, the
ozone units that are practical to buy will not allow a skimmer of the
size I plan to use to be fully supported. It would need to be 75% air
and 25% ozone. Will this still generate the correct affect?
<<Not
sure I follow/understand this line of thinking. For your size tank, an
ozone generator in the 200mg-250mg range should be sufficient. How
"effective" it is will depend on the quality/efficiency of the
generator...and I suggest you also employ a controller>>
4) As there
seem to be so many vocal supports of both the Berlin method and the
Ecosystem method, can I take it that both are equally as effective when
used correctly?
<<Likely so...many folks employ different
methods/combinations of methods quite successfully>>
5) Will I have
to modify anything in this design in a year or two if I move into making
a reef tank?
<<I don't think so...other than maybe adding more flow
to the display tank>>
Many thanks indeed.
Steve
<<Quite
welcome, EricR>> Sump/Refugium (Overflow?) Confusion
- 04/08/06
Hey folks me again.
<<Hello "me">>
I have a
Perfecto 125 gal reef ready with two corner flows. I called the company
and they said each overflow is rated at 700gph.
<<Mmm, yes..."rated"
indeed...but expect only about half that before incurring problems
(excessive noise, surge, air entrainment issues, etc.).>>
This gives
me about 1400gph to use.
<<A lot of water to try to push through a
sump...hope it's not in your living room.>>
I would like to use a
Mag 18 for my return and according to spec it will give me a little less
than 1400gph with the head length.
<<As I've intimated, I think this
will be too much flow for your overflows/sump. Go ahead and give it a
try...just be prepared to make adjustments/downsize the pump if things
don't turn out as you expect.>>
I will use a "T" and a gate valve on
the return.
<<wise>>
My question is this. First question I have
is can I run a "T" off one of the drains, put a gate vale on it and let
it drain into a refuge chamber in a sump.
<<You can>>
The water
would then flow over a baffle to the second chamber. This is where I
will be doing the skimming.
<<I would design the sump/refugium to
skim water 'before' the 'fuge to keep from trapping/removing beneficial
plankton/epiphytic matter on its way to your fish's/coral's mouths.>>
Then I will pump the water back into the display with the Mag18. If
this sounds ok what size should I have for the refuge.
<<As large as
physically possible.>>
I want the main purpose for nitrate
reduction. If macroalgae is suggested then what type could I use and
feed the extra to the fish.
<<My personal fave is Chaetomorpha (is
what I use), it provides an excellent, dense matrix for pod/plankton
production. But if your looking to feed your fish with the algae,
Gracilaria is probably a better choice. Though excellent nutrient
export mechanisms, I tend to keep away from Caulerpa species due to
their inherent risks (toxicity, sexual events, et al).>>
Would it be
a problem with the raw water going directly into the refuge portion?
<<Nope. I have separate vessels for my sump and refugium...the 'fuge
receives raw water from the display which then flows to the pump chamber
in my sump.>>
The last and biggest question is, I have been looking
all over the internet and can not find a sump/refuge that will do the
above. Any suggestions.
<<Have a look here and among the indices in
blue: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/sumpusefaq10.htm
>>
I don't know if a DIY project would be appropriate with my
skills.
<<Not all that difficult...really.>>
If you have other
suggestions for the sump/refuge let me know as I am confused on how to
do it right. I know 'right' is a matter of opinion but I trust your
opinions.
<<Indeed my friend...for a combined unit, my "opinion" is
to have raw water flow in to the skimmer chamber (first chamber), then
overflow to the refugium, which then overflows to the pump
chamber. Baffles to help eliminate excessive bubbles can be installed
between the skimmer chamber and refugium chamber.>>
Thanks a bunch
and I am still reading your site.
<<Excellent...lots of
material/help abounds.>>
With all this knowledge I am starting to
look like I am on steroids (hehe).
<<Heee! EricR>>
Sump to Display ratio 3/20/06
Hello, I've spent some time
looking through your website with respect to sump systems... although I
see a lot of FAQ's, I can't seem to find general guidelines and
rules. A few simple questions?
<<Fire away!>>
I am having a
custom built 165 gallon tank built into my wall. I'd like to incorporate
a sump system to minimize my hands in the tank water and for ease of
maintenance. What would be the recommended size of sump tank to be used
with a 165 gallon tank? Would 50 gallons be sufficient? I also have a
90 gallon tank that I'd like to have setup with a sump... 20 or 30
gallons for this one?
<<A crude rule of thumb for a minimum might be
about 20% of the display size. The most important thing is that they
sump is at least big enough to hold all of the water that will drain
down from the display when the pumps are shut off. Other than that, I
would suggest using as large a sump as is practical. The more water
volume the better, and a larger sump offers a greater degree of flood
safety than one that is barely large enough. I would say that the sizes
you are proposing sound fine.>>
In my 165 gallon tank, I'm doing
fish only with a Zebra or Snowflake Moray Eel. Does the 1lb live
rock/per gallon ALWAYS apply? (as I have seen many fish only systems
with hardly any or no live rock at all). Obviously I want enough to
give my fish and eel ample hiding places... but do I really need to
invest the 1lb rock/gallon rule in this scenario? Look forward to your
response. Regards, Dave Brynlund
<<I am a big fan of live rock even
in fish only systems. However, the rule of 1 lb per gallon is a very
rough guide. If you choose very high quality, open, porous rock
(Marshall Islands, Kaelini), as little as 1/2 lb/gal should be
sufficient to provide cover for your eel and provide adequate biological
filtration. On the other hand, some Florida aquacultured rock is very
dense and might require 1.5-2 lb/gal for the same effect. In terms of
using live rock at all, I feel very strongly about it's benefits. See
here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_2/cav2i5/Filtration/Filtration.htm Best
Regards. AdamC.>> Re: Sump to display ratio 3/24/06
Thanks for the response... I went to a few local aquariums to take a
look at sump systems to get a better idea of how they work. My intent
with the 165 gallon tank (5 1/2 ft long, 2' x 2') is to have one
overflow into about a 45 - 50 gallon sump. I've noticed a number of
posts talking about two overflows, what would the benefit
be? Obviously, with two overflows one would need one BIG sump tank,
correct? I intend to split my inflow back into the tank via some tubes
to create water flow in all areas of the tank.
<<Multiple drains do
not require a larger sump as long as the drains are positioned at the
same height... the water will still only drain as low as the drains are
positioned. However, multiple drains can handle much greater flow and
do so with much less noise, both of which are very important
considerations.>>
As well, I was curious with sumps... If I choose
to use live rock as a filter media, do I ever have to change out the
liverock or rinse it? I'm under the impression that I can use liverock
in the chamber where tank water enters the sump... In the middle chamber
I keep my heater, protein skimmer, and perhaps a refugium? Does the
refugium have to be in a distinctive container? Do I just put substrate
in the middle chamber as is? I've noticed a few sump kits advertising
'miracle mud' or something to that effect. Looks like they use bio
balls in the tank to sump chamber, and then a miracle mud in the middle
chamber with Caulerpa or mangroves... Etc. Know anything about this?
<<Live rock and it's attendant critters are meant to be self
maintaining. An occasional blast with a powerhead or turkey baster is
all it needs. You can place live rock in any chamber of the sump, but
it is much better applied in the display where it makes an attractive,
functional substrate. If you use a divided sump, no special container
is necessary for a refugium. In fact, I have seen very functional
refugia constructed out of a 5gal plastic bucket with a hole in the side
placed in a sump! Miracle Mud is a name brand substrate. I have seen
it work very well for some people, but no one has convinced me that it
has benefits beyond a conventional refugium. FWIW.. mangroves make
attractive plants, but grow much too slowly to accomplish meaningful
nutrient export.>>
I've very SUMP unintelligent... I think I need to
actually set one up and run it for me to fully understand what
happens. I've read through your info and FAQ's but there seems to be no
"SUMPS for Dummy's" section... Hehe.
<<There really is no
magic! Simply put, a sump is just a convenient place to put equipment
where it can be out of sight and maintained without disrupting the
display. It does not have to be any more complicated than a plain,
standard aquarium, although placing baffles to control bubbles is
helpful. The addition of a refugium, elaborate baffling systems, etc.
may be helpful, but are not necessary.>>
Is there a fool proof way
to ensure that neither my tank or sump does not overflow? As long as I
get a big enough sump to begin with...? I want to ensure safety
measures for a syphon break or pump failure. Dave
<<Ha!! Don't we
all wish! Seriously though, the most important consideration is
choosing a large enough sump that it won't fill up when the pumps are
turned off. This should of course be tested! A close second in
importance is maintenance. Make sure that prefilters, screens, drain
lines, etc. are all kept clear of debris to prevent the display from
overfilling. If you plumb your return lines up over the edge of the
tank, the use of siphon breaks is also helpful. These small holes in
the return line are placed just at the water line to allow air to enter
the line if the pump stops. This prevents a siphon from forming and
sucking water back to the sump through the return line. Last but not
least... do not rely on check valves! While they may function
flawlessly when new or nearly new, they are very prone to failure as
organic material and living creatures accumulate on them. Best
Regards. AdamC.>>
Sump Size - 3/10/2006
Hello
<<Hello Andrea.>>
My boyfriend Jim has a 90 gallon tank. At this
time he is using a 30 gallon sump in the basement that runs back to the
upstairs for his tank flow.
<<Just for flow? There are better/easier
ways to achieve this. Is it a macro-algae refugium?>>
Jim would
like to increase the sump volume to 150-200 gallons, if he does this
would it be a strain to the Eco system of the tank and kill things off?
<<I'm not sure why this would be a problem. If it were my tank, I'd
have the larger tank as a display, with the 90 as the sump.>>
Jim
also wanted to know, since he has used this email before, does he need a
specific contact person, or does it not make a difference?
<<Only if
he'd prefer to talk to a certain crew member.>>
Thanks
Andrea
<<Glad to help. Lisa.>>
Sump Design/Filter Socks - 03/08/06
Hi WWM Crew:
<<Hey
there Tom!>>
Thank you very much for all the help so far, you've
been huge.
<<Our pleasure>>
I have another question: I'm
just not understanding how best to provide raw water to the sump
skimmer, because I also thought I needed (and would rinse at least
weekly) a filter sock for incoming sump water to remove as much
detritus as possible from our 120G mixed reef system. Is the sock
really needed?
<<Opinions vary...but I don't use them on my
reef.>>
I've attached a top and front view of the new sump I'm
planning. It's as big as can fit under the tank, otherwise I'd have
a larger refugium section.
<<Nice drawings...very helpful.>>
If I were to remove the filter sock, how could I then physically
filter the water before it gets to the return pump?
<<Mmm, not
always necessary, again, in my opinion...but even without the filter
sock much will settle out in the baffles and can be
vacuumed/siphoned out periodically.>>
Could you also review the
diagrams and tell me what's good (and not so good)?
<<Happy
to... I would move the skimmer to the first chamber and let ALL the
raw water from the tank enter here to be processed by the skimmer
and overflowing to the refugium in the middle compartment. This way
plankton/epiphytic matter from the refugium doesn't get sucked in to
(and wasted by) the skimmer, but rather, has a free ride to your
return pump and up to the display tank.>>
Thanks,
Tom
<<Regards, EricR>> |  |  |
Sump Design/Filter Socks II - 03/09/06
I guess now I have a
couple of follow up questions, appreciate your patience.
<<No
problem>>
I'm sure inclined to go the route you suggest, without a
sock, but I would not have any physical filtration in the system other
than the skimmer, is that right?
<<Correct. Ideally you will have
enough flow in your tank to keep detritus in suspension to be utilized
by the tank inhabitants.>>
Just curious...about how often should the
sump detritus need to be siphoned out of the baffles and skimmer
compartment?
<<Depends, maybe 2-3 times a year...but you'll likely
find this area densely populated by bristle worms, amphipods, other
micro-crustaceans, and may not have to bother with it.>>
Also, with
the refugium section in the middle, would the 1000 GPH going through it
be too much?
<<Most any refugium methodology will do fine with the
flow.>>
Thought of a new question, still related. Would you say I'm
better off going with an external sump return pump (like a GenX Mak4),
or a similar capacity internal pump (like a Mag 12 or 18)? I'd like to
get an actual 1000GPH through the 1" SeaSwirl. A submersible internal
pump would allow me to make the sump a few inches longer, but I'd like
to avoid the added heat of the submersible Mag.
<<If you were to use
an Iwaki or GRI pump I would say go external. But given the choices
listed I would use the Mag-Drive pump. Noise will be less and the
difference in heat transfer negligible.>>
Thanks, in advance!
Tom
<<Always welcome, EricR>>
Combined Sump/Refugium
Design - 03/11/06
Good Evening Crew,
<<Morning here>>
I
have a follow-up question to a submission posted by another querier
(Tom) titled "sump design/filter socks" from the WWM daily FAQs of
03/08/06. The submitter of this initial query provided very nice
drawings of a proposed refugium/sump design (side and top
views). Distinguished WWM responder, Eric R., provided an answer that
suggested switching the position of the refugium & sump. Eric's answer
is perfectly clear/understood. However, seeing the submitted drawings
mentioned above, reading Eric's response and having read some of Mr.
Fenner's (and other Crew member's) comments about sump/fuge design has
me wondering about another element of sump/fuge layout.
<<Ah yes, I
recall the exchange(s) well...EricR here...again.>>
I believe in one
of Mr. Fenner's archived answers on the topic, he indicated that
sump/fuge design might be optimized by incorporating some ability to
implement carbon and/or Poly-Filter when/if necessary.
<<No
might/when/if about it in my opinion <G>. Virtually any/every system
would/will benefit from the addition of these media.>>
I am
wondering, referring to the design drawings mentioned above, where in
this design would one place such (carbon/Poly-Filter) bags/pads, etc?
<<Anywhere along the filter flow-path. In the sump mentioned, the media
could be placed in amongst the baffles. Some manufactured sumps
incorporate a dedicated "media chamber" for this purpose.>>
Would
one envelope the output pipe from the skimmer in a carbon-filled or
Poly-Filter type bag?
<<Could, but I wouldn't. Aside from being a
pain to employ, it would likely wreak havoc with your drain's
output/flow.>>
Or, would it be better to direct the skimmer output
to a higher-level, drip-tray type device or compartment (similar to
Marineland's filter-drawer-style sump) wherein carbon material and/or
Poly-Filter pads are placed in "drizzle path" to achieve necessary
chemical filtering if/as necessary?
<<Mmm...me thinks it would just
be easier to place the media somewhere along the filter flow-path...>>
In addition, acknowledging the fact that there are greatly varied
opinions in the hobby on this subject, my reading of the FAQs re
sump/fuge design has led me to believe that "parallel" flow systems here
(i.e. a specifically determined volume & turnover-rate-based % of tank
output going separately but concurrently to both sump and fuge, with the
two coming together again at the return) are better than a "series"
method of sump-into-fuge-to-return design?
<<I absolutely
agree! Employing a separate sump and refugium is always better IMO/E.>>
If one is running, for example, an Aqua-C EV-240 using a Mag 1200,
wouldn't the output of that into your average fuge cause total
destruction in an average setup unless (even if) manifolded?
<<Mmm,
no...many refugium methodologies benefit from high flow rates. I have a
55 gallon vegetable refugium (6" sugar-fine DSB w/Chaetomorpha algae)
with a flow through of more than 1,000 gph. I'm not saying it has to be
that high (though some authors might disagree), but it does tolerate the
flow well and could easily stand more. The high flow rate also assists
with getting planktonic/epiphytic matter out of the refugium and in to
the display tank.>>
It would seem much more logical to divert tank
output to the sump and fuge compartments separately and have skimmer
output going directly to main return, bypassing fuge.
<<More logical
to have separate vessels/inputs/outputs, yes...though for "combined"
vessels, focus should be on having the 'fuge output bypass the skimmer
chamber else much of the benefit re (IMO) is wasted.>>
This is what
I am planning in my design, anyway....am I mistaken?
<<As long as you aren't flowing from your refugium to your skimmer I
think you are on track.>>
Part of the reason I am trying to
design/build my own sump and fuge is because I haven't yet found any
manufacturers that produce (at least what I can tell is) a "parallel"
system.
<<Agreed>>
I am wondering why truly parallel-style
systems aren't more widely commercially available?.
<<Good question,
would appeal to me...perhaps folks/manufacturers are just "comfortable
with/complacent about" current design. Perhaps you could use your
design to spark a change!>>
Or, are they, and I've just not looked
in the right places?
<<Don't think so.>>
Highly
regarded (apparently) sump/fuge systems such as those offered by
Ecosystems (those that I've seen) seem to be of a "series"
nature...unless I don't fully understand their design/functional flow?
<<My experiences match yours. Commonly available sump/refugium systems
employ designs where water flows through a "series" of chambers from one
end to the other. I envision a parallel system employing a lengthwise
center panel/plate allowing the formation of two longitudinal chambers,
with both terminating at a single pump chamber. As you stated each
chamber could be fed individually, with flow tailored to suit, and each
side customized /compartmentalized for its intended purpose.>>
Thank
you very much for your time/advice here.
Best Regards,
Brian
<<Cheers, EricR>> Sump Design/Filter Socks II - 3/16/2006
Hi Eric,
<<Hey Tom!>>
I see the diagrams I included with my
recent "Sump Design/Filter Socks - 03/08/06" inquiry resulted in more
discussion on the topic, so I wanted to make sure the other WWM reader
(Brian) knew about www.melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html. Some of Melev's
sump designs looked similar to what I needed, plus there are several
other examples that might help Brian with the "parallel" sump/refugium
design.
<<Thank you for this.>>
Regarding placement of the
skimmer in the center section, I thought very little of the refugium
output would end up back in the skimmer because of the way the EV180
skimmer body will partition the center section. On one side of the
EV180, around 800-900 GPH will be coming into the skimmer pump area via
the overflow, and the EV180 can only process around half that flow. So
this "excess" flow into the skimmer pump area should keep most of the
skimmer and refugium output, which is on the other side of the EV180,
from getting back into the skimmer pump...the bulk of the skimmer and
refugium output should just flow into the baffles. At least that's the
theory...
<<Mmm, I see your point...likely will be fine then.>>
These drawings were done in a hurry and are missing lots of
details. I'll be putting media bag(s) in the baffle area, and redundant
float switches, for auto top-off, in the return pump area. The divider
between the refugium and skimmer section will be opaque, black acrylic
to keep the algae growth in the refugium. One minor difference from some
other refugium designs I've seen will be that the refugium output will
not simply flow over a wall into the return area, rather it will come
from near the bottom of the refugium where I figured most of the 'pods
like to hang out.
<<Indeed they do. And once the mysids start
breeding (feed them well...are cannibalistic) you will see little
"clouds" of tiny young swirling just above the substrate.>>
The main
goals with this sump design are (1) a decent size refugium and (2) high,
1000+ GPH, bubble-free flow to a SeaSwirl return...but it all has to fit
in a very limited space with a pre-determined overflow location.
<<A
common tale.>>
Lots of other equipment (Ca reactor, CO2 bottle,
freshwater reservoir, PhosBan reactor, closed-loop pump, chiller pump,
power strips, timers, etc) needs to fit in the same cabinet, and I'll be
using every square inch of space.
<<A very common tale <grin>.>>
One thing I've learned in my short time as a reef keeper is that it's
the opportunity for individual planning, design, and methods that help
make this hobby interesting.
<<Yes! To bad so many overlook these
steps.>>
Another thing I've learned is to read, and get advice from
WWM...please let me know if I'm headed the right direction.
<<Keep
reading/questioning/learning my friend.>>
Just to confirm your
earlier answer to the sump return pump selection, would a 110 watt,
external GenX Mak4 really add about as much heat to the water as a 145
watt, submersible Mag18?
<<Actually, I had a Mag12 in mind when I
made that comment...but even so, I don't think you will find the
temperature transfer from the Mag18 to be a problem, no.>>
I've been
using a Mak4 for a closed loop, and it sure seems like the bulk of the
heat is produced & dissipated away from the wet end of the pump.
<<Agreed...but I also think the GenX pump runs hotter than the
Mag-Drive. I think you will do fine whichever method you choose. If
heat is going to be an issue for you I really doubt which of these pumps
you use will be a deciding factor. Mounting fans (I use 4" 12v computer
fans run on inexpensive outdoor lighting transformers) to blow across
your tank AND your sump/refugium will go a long way towards mitigating
any "overheating" issues.>>
As always, a big thanks,
Tom
<<And as always, very welcome. Regards, EricR>>
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