Grading and Rinsing Oolitic Sand... (or not)? ~ 01/09/09
Greetings WWM Crew,
<<Hello Brian>>
Thank you so much for your fine work!
<<Ah, quite welcome…a collaborative effort>>
I've been reading over your many archives for a year, slowly acquiring gear (as I can afford) in anticipation of setting up a FOWLR, eventually (hopefully) reef system.
<<Mmm, yes… The planning and anticipation, indeed the *shopping*, is a time of much enjoyment. At least it was/is for me>>
My confusion, if you'd be so kind to entertain a question and comment re,
<<Certainly>>
concerns the necessity (or desirability) of rinsing Oolitic DSB substrates.
<<Ah…>>
Advice and opinion on this seems to go from yes to no.
<<Indeed… And valid arguments to both. But my choice based on my experience re is to rinse… rinse a lot…>>
As background, given my fiscal constraints and the high cost (for 5-6 inch, main tank DSB in a 300G system) of "branded" packaged Oolitic/Aragonite,
<<Hee-hee! Indeed! I have a 375g reef display with a DSB consisting of about 1,200 lbs of sugar-fine Aragonite, with another 300 lbs in a refugium. Lucky for me at the time, I was able to obtain 50 lb bags of Aragonite *play* sand for about $7.00 a bag versus the approximately $1.00 per pound for the, as you say, *branded* variety>>.
finding discontinued availability of Southdown and Yardright,
<<Mmm, yes… A huge loss to the hobby, or rather, the hobbyist>>
I spent several months doing some serious "snooping" around in search of cheaper Oolitic sand alternatives.
<<Do tell!>>
After considerable time spent on intelligence gathering, I located a source of Oolitic sand reportedly mined offshore of, I believe, the Bahamas.
<<And very likely the same source for the previously mentioned and now defunct play-sand brands>>
So, I hopped in the truck armed with a cup and a bottle of vinegar. I was surprised and pleased to find a 300-400 ton pile of clean Oolitic sand which, when tested, bubbled nicely in vinegar.
<<Excellent>>
I purchased (legally) 1300lbs (what the truck could hold) for $18 dollars (US).
<<Wow! A superb deal for sure!>>
This sand, however, is not "graded".
<<…? I would not expect it to be a *consistent* grade. But if true Oolitic it should all still be very small/fine. But even if not so/if it contains some larger grains it should still work fine as is>>
Upon return home, I devised two sieve drum-screens (for lack of better term) and spent the next two-weeks-of-nights manually rotating the drums, sifting the sand.
<<Yikes… A lot of work. And probably unnecessary>>
I ended up with approximately 700lbs of fine sand (.00? to .75mm), 350lbs of medium (.75 to 1.5mm) and 250lbs of coarse sand (1.5mm to 3mm).
<<Ah… As alluded, this would all have been fine combined as obtained>>
I want to achieve 15 to 20x circulation via use of an OM 4-way and closed-loop manifold. So, to get an idea of potential clouding problems I tested the finest-grade sand, placing about 1/2 cup into a quart of H20. As expected, the "fines" (particles barely visible to naked eye) in the sand totally clouded the water.
<<Yep>>
Sitting undisturbed in the jar, the cloudiness took 24+ hours to become crystal clear.
<<Uh-huh>>
Slight movement of the jar and plume trails rise off the sand surface.
<<Yep>>
My question, actually questions, is as follows:
1. Is it necessary or desirable to rinse this sand (especially the fine grade) prior to placement?
<<Maybe not necessary, but I would/do… With water movement, and unless filtered out by your equipment, these fine particles can really cloud the water for days. I also really don’t like the mess these *fines* make of the system/décor/equipment/et al., and though some argue the fines can/will do much towards boosting alkaline/bio-mineral content, I find what is left after washing these away also does this just, er… fine>>
My plan is to place LFS-cured LR first, sand second so as to stabilize the rock work and then seed with live sand.
<<A fine plan… And one you will enjoy more if you first rinse the sand to prevent the live rock from being coated by the fines (yeah you can blow these off… but then your water is all cloudy again>>>>
I've read in various forums, including Dr. Shimek's work, that it is "desirable" to keep the "fines" (as in "mud")
<<No argument, but better in a refugium with a lower flow rate than in the display in my opinion... Unless the display is a biotope geared towards such>>
...but the problem of clouding would, I presume, potentially continue indefinitely with DSB critter disturbance and given 15-20x desired circulation.
<<Not indefinitely, as these very tiny particles will *eventually* settle out in your sump/places of low flow and also be removed by your skimmer, with time>>
2. Would it be advisable to layer...place the .00? to .75mm to a depth of 3-4 inches and then place another 1-2 inches of the .75 to 1.5mm on top of that to perhaps reduce clouding until the super-fines (.00? to .05) dissolve or amalgamate?
<<You can… And though it may make some small difference it won’t be much I think. But it also won’t hurt to give it a try>>
3. Can or should I use the larger grade (1.5 to 3mm) for anything?...perhaps in some configuration (maybe separated horizontal layers or vertical "walls") in the refugium for POD production?
<<This too you can do… Though I would just mix it all together and use as is>>
Can the larger grade potentially be used in a calcium reactor?
<<Indeed it can>>
4. Have I wasted my time separating grades?
<<[grin] I would not have bothered with such>>
Could or should I have used this sand "as is" with the various particle sizes naturally all mixed up?
<<Indeed you could have/can do>>
Any opinions or guidance you might provide would be very much appreciated.
<<You can go either way… And I think this is also a bigger *deal* when adding sand to an established system as opposed to new… But though it takes a lot of work *I* would definitely rinse the sand of the fines before use… And with the volumes/ratios you listed, I would also not be concerned with separation of the particle sizes>>
Warmest Regards, Brian
<<Happy to share. Eric Russell>>

Should I Go DSB or No??   12/31/09 Hello All, I am in the process of setting up a 125 gallon aquarium that I will be moving from my established 80 gallon Bow Front aquarium. My question revolves around my sand bed. I have five bags of the Carib Sea Special Reef Grade Sand, <A good product in my estimation> so far I have added just 2 bags of the sand into the tank and that gives me around 1 1/2" of depth. Now, my question is this, should I leave it be or add the other three bags for a DSB. <Yes I would... unless you intend to place a refugium below this system... in which case, I'd build the DSB there> Additionally the aquarium will rest on a DIY stand <Very nice from your pix> (plans were found on GARF website). The stand is actually pretty planar with a tiny gap in the center so to err on the side of caution, <? for expansion? Settling?> I added 1/2" foam (interlocking tile type). I have added a few photos as well. Any info will be much appreciated. Thank you, R. Morton <Thank you for sharing. Bob Fenner>

Re: Should I Go DSB or No??   12/31/08 Thank you for the response. Regarding the small gap in the center, it is the settling that I am trying to keep under control. Since the stand has already been Poly-ed (sp.??) I really don't see any reason why the wood would expand, but I know if I don't expect it to happen it probably will lol. Do you think I am being too cautious? I just don't want the tank crack from stress or worse. When I eyeballed the gap it was very small (could probably just slip an envelope under it). I honestly believed that with the weight of the water and sand etc. that this gap would disappear, but I added the foam just to be on the safe side. What do you think? <Not likely useful nor a worry> Thanks Again, R. Morton <Certainly welcome. BobF.> Re: Should I Go DSB or No??   12/31/08 I must apologize for all the emails. I was just on the CaribSea site and it says not to use the Special Grade Reef Sand for DSB's. I have both of your books and they have helped me greatly in the few years I have had my aquarium, and you haven't led me astray yet. Call me just being curious, so I am throwing this little bit of info out there to see what you think. <Well... finer (even smaller than nominal 1 mm diam.) "sand" is better for DSB use alone, but... as you stated, you already had the Caribsea product in place, with more bags to possibly apply... Let me see if I can make this clear/er... You would be better off with the finer material (and placing it instead in a refugium)... but if it were me, mine and I had what you state... I'd go ahead and add the other bags... B>

Substrate & Maintenance Questions, DSB des., maint.  12/02/08
Crew
Thanks for all the great FAQs and help you've already provided. I had some additional questions regarding my 220g FOWLER that I am setting up as an upgrade to my current 120g. Setup includes:
* 72*24*30 island display tank with viewing and swim lanes on all four sides with LR in the middle
* 300lbs of LR
* RO/DI water
* 30g skimmer sump and AquaC EV240 Skimmer with Mag 18 pump
* 35g refugium with 5" sugar fine DSB, Chaetomorpha, LR rubble, alternate light cycle, 4-5 times flow
* 60g overflow sump that includes the heaters, return pumps and some of the LR (water flows from tank to either the fuge or the skimmer sump and then into overflow sump before return to tank)
* 30g weekly water changes
* T5 lighting (2 strips of white and 2 strips of blue)
* Aiming for 10-20 times flow in display by augmenting overflow returns with a closed loop manifold
* Heavy fish load, including tangs, dwarf angels, B/Fs, mated clown pair, Anthias trio, a Sixline wrasse and a mystery wrasse
Questions:
LR maintenance crew -- Will rely on skunk cleaner shrimps, fire shrimps, emerald crabs and serpent stars for detritivores. Will rely on fish and emerald crabs to eat algae. Planning to add Nerite snails if/as needed to control algae. Does this all sound optimal?
<"Optimal?" Who knows? It all depends on what starts growing in your system. This is seriously one way to go... but your needs/strategy might change as time goes on, as the tank matures, etc.>
Am I correct that the Nerite snails can "right" themselves if they fall on their backs?
<They do seem a bit more adept at not getting stuck on their backs, but there's no snail that is completely incapable of doing itself in by falling into the wrong crack.>
If not, what would be your recommendation as an algae eater that won't fall over and die?
Display tank sand & sand maintenance crew -- Because I will have a DSB in the fuge and a heavy fish load in the display, I am not planning to use a DSB in the display. In the FAQs, I see that it's best to keep the sand bed no higher than 1/2 inch if not a DSB. However, I also want to make sure that I have a maintenance crew to keep the display sand bed stirred, algae free and clean looking. From what I can tell, sugar fine or something close to that would be the ideal size, right?
<For anything other than a DSB, it doesn't really matter... so, yes, sugar fine sand should "work.">
It also looks like a combination of Cerith and Nassarius snails would be the best choices for my sand maintenance goals.
<Oh, where to begin? ::sigh:: It's all a bit more complicated than this.
Yes, you do need a few of these such animals to do the first phase of "digestion" of debris/left overs/etc. But they're only the first in a long line of animals that process such "waste." The best things to keep a sand bed (of any depth) "stirred" and "clean" are the little guys... copepods, worms, seed shrimp, etc. Mini brittle stars can also be very helpful (and delightful!).>
However, from what I've read, they both need "deep" sand beds (though my sources didn't indicate exactly what that meant). How deep would the sand bed need to be in order to employ these snails? Would you recommend a spider or fighting conch in addition to, or in place of, the Nassarius and/or Cerith snails?
<Again, I might be focusing a bit too much on snails. Get yourself some spaghetti and bristle worms, pods, mini brittle stars... and any variety of "bugs" and worms too small to even see with the naked eye (i.e. the kind you get in "live sand" seeder kits).>
Also, would you recommend a pair of bullet gobies?
<Recommend them for...? Sand bed maintenance? No.>
If so, what depth would they need? And how deep does the bed need to be for the wrasses?
<likely at least 2 to 3 in>
I am assuming that I should not use a sand star unless I actually use a DSB in the display, correct.
<No sand sifting stars! Please... large, carnivorous echinoderms are no friend to any sand bed.>
Boiling all this down...to keep the bed as low as possible, while keeping it stirred, algae free and clean looking, what combination of sand depth and crew would be your recommendation here?
<Personally, I would either commit to a "proper" DSB of at least 4in in the display or just go bare bottom (or rubble bottom)... there's really no sense in a "shallow" sand bed. I know a lot of people really want at least a little sand for aesthetic reasons, but if you don't make sure it's well populated and maintained, it's likely going to end up being more of a hassle than it's worth.>
Fuge maintenance -- Only planning on Nassarius snails here. Does that sound right?
<Ok, yes, just a few Nassarius snails are good to have (especially in the beginning)... but this is certainly not the end of the story. You need much more than just them... think small, squirmy, crawling... worms, pods, maybe some mini brittle stars. If you want snails in the display too, try Trochus, Strombus, etc.>
Should they be the large ones or the small/vibex ones?
<The smaller ones are preferred. Btw, if you have the time, interest and commitment... this is a great list of very helpful and informative articles by Dr. Ron Shimek:
http://www.ronshimek.com/online_works.html>
Thanks much for all the help.
Sean
<De nada and happy reefing,
Sara M.>

Re: Substrate & Maintenance Questions 12/03/08
Crew,
I forgot to mention one other option I was considering... Some of your FAQs suggested using both a DSB sump and an EcoSystem miracle mud (MM) sump for larger tanks. I was thinking about adding a Caulerpa/MM sump to the
below setup. On the EcoSystem web site, they recommend 1200-1500 gph through the MM sump for a 220g tank. However, that would use just about all of the flow that I can get out of my tank's 2 overflows (700 gph max each). Their recommended setup has the skimmer placed in the MM sump in the first chamber before the mud chamber. Doing this robs the mud and Caulerpa of nutrients, so I imagine that's why they only recommend skimming a couple of hours each day. I was wondering if it might make sense to have three sumps running in parallel. In other words, overflow water from the tank would be diverted 650 gph to the skimmer sump, 650 gph to the Caulerpa/MM sump and 100 gph to the DSB/Chaeto sump. The output from all three sumps would flow by gravity into the overflow sump for return to the main tank. (I have room for all of this, since the filtration system is in the basement below the display tank.
Does all this make sense?
<I don't see why not... if you have the room, it makes sense to me.>
My reasoning is that I would be getting the benefits of both the Berlin and the EcoSystem approaches by splitting the filtration duty in half. Or would this be worse than just going with one approach?
<Typically, when it comes to filtration for reef tanks, variety is a good thing.>
Also, would 650 gph be enough flow going past the EV240 skimmer?
<I would think so. If not, you could always just leave the skimmer on longer.>
If you think this combo approach makes sense, would you recommend any changes to the proposed gph flows?
<Look good to me.>
I haven't heard back on my earlier email,
<Really?! I did reply... I wonder what happened! I'll resend.>
so I'd appreciate your thoughts on my earlier questions as well as these new questions whenever you get a moment.
Thanks much.
Sean
<De nada,
Sara M.>

Re: Substrate & Maintenance Questions 12/04/08
Sara,
Thank you SO much for this info, and for the info on my follow-up email.
<My pleasure.>
Turns out that your messages got caught in my spam filter,
<Oh, yes, this happens to some people... >
so that's why I didn't get them initially. I've added you to my safe sender list so that it won't happen again.
You've given me some great insight. I will definitely go with both a DSB/Chaeto fuge and a Mud/Caulerpa fuge in addition to my skimmer.
<cool>
Regarding all the little critters you mentioned (worms, pods, etc.), I was kind of just "assuming" them. Until your email, I hadn't really focused on the fact that they were such an import part of the equation.
<Indeed... they are the most important. Yes, you can assume *some* of them. Eventually, you'll almost inevitably introduce many of these things without even trying. However, the people who have the best and most successful (and useful) sand beds make an actual effort to accumulate them (and to make sure they have the diversity needed for a healthy DSB). Also, waiting to "accidently" acquire them will take a lot longer than if you get seeder sand and seeder populations.>
And thanks for the link to Shimek's works. I haven't read all yet, but I've already learned a ton there.
<Hehe, well, I haven't read them *all* either... but many.>
I think I understand now that I need to focus on the critters, and doing that means staying away from the sand stars and gobies. I will definitely look into a sand seeder kit.
From your email and from what I've read so far from Shimek, it sounds like a DSB in the main tank is the best way to go. However... I just don't like the look. This will be one area where I won't go "optimal."
<Well, a remote DSB is "almost" as good (and in some ways has its advantages)... again, it's more a matter of properly caring for (setting up and populating) the sand bed more than where you put it.>
But I don't like the bare or rubble bottom look either. Sooo... Below you suggest that if I want "at least a little sand for aesthetic reasons" that I should "make sure it's well populated and maintained" or "it's likely going to end up being more of a hassle than it's worth." I'm willing to put in the effort/investment to get the aesthetic benefit of a shallow bed; therefore, I have 2 main follow-up questions:
* Could I "get by" with a 1" or lower sand bed, given the 2 wrasses, or should I go to 2" and plan to do more manual stirring?
<Go with 2"... but don't manually stir it. You can siphon the top of it lightly. And, you can try to keep it populated by occasionally switching some of it out with the sand in your fuge.>
* What's the best way to make sure that my shallow bed is "well populated and maintained"? A sand seeder kit should get it started, and hopefully the 2 refugiums will help keep it populated with little critters, especially if I avoid the gobies and sand star who would gobble them up.
<Yes, the refuges will help. Also, as stated above... you can occasionally switch out sand between the fug and the display.>
Could I still use Cerith, small Nassarius and/or conch snails to assist the critters in a shallow bed?
<Yes, but don't over do it! Don't get more than one conch or more than 2 Nassarius per 40g or so...>
Beyond that, would regular manual stirring help enough? Any other recommendations?
<You shouldn't have to do any manual stirring.>
Thanks again!
Sean
<De nada!
Sara M.>
Re: Substrate & Maintenance Questions
Thanks for the speedy reply! And even more so, thanks for the great advice. I feel like I have a game plan now. Time to finish the setup and get this thing cycling. Can't wait to see the new tank in action.
Thanks again. And Happy Holidays!
You are most welcome... and good "luck"! :-) --Sara M. (Happy Holidays to you as well)

DSB almost ready.. 11/13/08
Hi Bob,
<Dave>
I hope all has been well with you. I have a quick question for you. I have the 55g tank set up for the DSB in the clown house for the grow out system. A club member is giving me approx 200-250lbs of live sand tonight from his 2 tanks. Both tanks have been up and running for over 2 years so the sand should be well cycled. He is tearing both tanks down because he is moving and may not set them back up right away. The sand beds are approximately 2-3 inches deep now in both tanks. My question is can I just put all the sand into the 55g tank and start water flowing over it immediately or do I need to let it settle?
<Depending on how much "loose material" there is between, amongst the sand it may be a good idea to rinse, let settle for an hour or two>
I wasn't sure if going from 2"-3" as they are now to a 8"-9" DSB will cause any harm to my current system. Is there anything special I should do?
<Mmm, a general statement: "If" there is a good deal of apparent "sediment", biological and/or not, I would mix in made up seawater/stir, pour off this material to an extent before placing... "If" there is a large amount of such material I might even rinse all in just tap/mains water to remove the bulk of it (and yes, kill off, remove much of the bio-matter) before using... "If" there is but a small amount of such material, I'd just add/place the used substrate and use as is>
I am very happy to have found this sand as it is established now and was free.
Thanks again,
Dave Durr
<Bob Fenner>

Re: DSB almost ready..  11/14/08
Good Morning Bob,
<Big D>
Thank you for the info. I picked up 3 buckets of sand last night from Casey's 75g & 120g tanks. I would say that there is quite a bit of sediment/loose material. I had an extra 29g tank that I put all the sand into and added some fresh salt water and a power head to keep the water circulating. I think that rinsing this sand is going to be necessary so I am glad I had an extra tank available. Should I be concerned about any cycling after adding this sand?
<Mmm... possibly... if it were me, mine, I'd either rinse all thoroughly, effectively killing, or opt to more lightly rinse, move/place just a few inches (3-4) at a time (every few days), effectively building up over time>
One thing that I did not realize is that he also has a 200g & 300g tanks that are being taken down also. He has offered me all the sand that I may want out of those tanks also. I am going to need more sand to get the desired depth in the 55g refugium for the grow out system so I will go get some more sand this weekend.
<I would not fill the 55 (I take it this is a standard/show of 24" height) much more than sixteen inches or so... to leave room for water/transit volume... even if there is an accompanying tank/area for overflow>
I just had a friend give me a 90g tank that I am thinking about using for a sump/refugium for the broodstock system. The sump for that system has always been a little small. Now that I have all this live sand available for free I think that I need to make that change as soon as possible also.
<Good, I would>
Once I get this up and running is it safe to start adding some macroalgaes right away?
<Yes>
I have a bottle of live copepods from Reed Mariculture that I was going to add also. You had recommended Gracilaria and Chaetomorpha as macroalgaes to add to the refugium for Nitrate & Phosphate removal, are there any others that would be beneficial?
<There are many, but these are the better, available genera currently>
As always thank you for your time,
Dave
<BobF>

Mud vs. DSB in HOB Refugium 8/6/08 Hello: <Tom.> I spent about 5 hours reading about HOB Refugiums last night (until 4am). I am considering purchasing a AquaFuge2 Large (25" Long) HOB. Not sure I completely understand what’s best for my tank a Mud or DSB on the bottom of refugium. My tank: 46 gallon bow 404 Fluval canister filter Red Sea Prizm protein skimmer Approx. 1" crushed coral on bottom. <The usual nitrate factory warnings: clean the canister frequently along with the crushed coral bed (consider replacing this with something finer) to prevent detritus buildup.> Thanks for reading. <Either will work fine, pretty much personal choice. I choose DSB for myself, mud is expensive and can be messy if not careful. Ask the next guy and he will swear by the mud. Give whichever appeals to you a try.> Tom <Welcome, Scott V.> Re: Mud vs. DSB in HOB Refugium 8/7/08 Hello Scott: Thanks for the quick reply. Did you suggest that I should consider replacing the crushed coral in the bottom of my 46 gallon display tank? <Yes.> This is something I have been wondering whether its possible to do. Maybe remove all the crushed coral and put a DSB in the main tank to. <It is one way, the one which I prefer.> Is this possible with out damaging live stock (fish/corals)? <Yes, either move out the livestock and switch or just scoop out what you can and add the new, finer sand.> Thanks Again, Tom <Welcome, Scott V.> Re: Mud vs. DSB in HOB Refugium 8/7/08 Hello: Thanks again. <Welcome.> When creating a DSB is the entire 4-5 inches to be sugar fine sand? <Sugar fine is good, you can use a bit coarser if you like, but the finer the better.> Are there any recommended "Live Sands" that would meet the proper criteria? <No, just some dry sand with live rock to seed off of (or a scoop of sand from an existing tank). The majority of "live"/bagged sands are a joke in my opinion. True live sand will have curing issues just like rock.> Regards, Tom <Scott V.>

DSB with CaribSea Seaflor Special Grade Reef 7/28/08
Ok, I have used this sand for in my last two display tanks. My 90G has about a 4”-5” depth ( I know it may be in that no-man’s land area).
<A good depth actually.>
It has been running w/o problem for almost 3 years. I have about a 1-2” in the display of my 250 and I was just getting ready to set up my 100G fuge. I was planning on about a 6-7” depth of CaribSea Seaflor Special Grade Reef Sand. I have read many articles on WWM RE: best sand for DSB. I already have 160lbs of the CaribSea sand and now I’m thinking that I may be better to go for something a little finer.
<I do personally like this sand, but still do choose the finer oolite type for DSBs. The Special Grade is a great sand for shallow sand beds. It is coarse enough to stay put reasonably well, yet does not act as near the nutrient sink as crushed coral.>
When I first decided to use the Seafloor special it was because of lots of people complaining about their sandbeds turning solid and this would not happen with the more coarse sand.
<It still can, same composition.>
I know there are pros and cons to everything, but if it were you which way would you go?
<The finer sand is my first choice, but the Special Grade will work fine in a 6-7” DSB.>
Grateful for your help as always.
Oly
<Welcome my friend, Scott V.>

DSB in Nano 01/10/2008
Hello Crew,
<<Hello, Andrew here>>
I've been in the marine hobby for about 4 years now and still hooked <<Aren't we all>>. I have a question and a comment. Right now I have a 2.5 gallon tank on my desk which has been running for about a month with just live rock. I am upgrading to an 8 gallon bio cube with the intent of putting a single mushroom polyp and 2 or 3 Zoanthid polyp and watching them grow<<Sounds great>>. To most people that might seem like a waste of space and a tank but I've always been fascinated with watching things grow and multiply. I test twice a week keeping a record of all my result and I do a weekly 10% water change, with several micro water changes during the week to keep the salinity stable. The same will apply to the 8 gallon once its up and running. My question is this, I would like to know if I should go with a bare bottom tank or have a deep sand bed (3" +). I know that having a bare bottom will make cleaning very easy, but I have never set up a tank with a DBS and I would like to try it so that I may further my knowledge and experience with the hobby. If I do opt for a DBS, what are the long term effects in a nano tank?
<<You could do a DSB of 3 inches, yes, however, I feel in a small aquarium as this, a lot of space will be wasted. Benefits of a DSB is that you will have an anaerobic area for denitrifying bacteria and provide nitrate removal. More info can be found here. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/deepsandbeds.htm >>
And now for my comment. I work at a local fish shop and I do my best to get people started on the right foot by telling them before buying anything research it. I usually hand a business card with your website written on the back of it. I am still surprised and a little frustrated with the attitude towards aquariums. It seems like people insist on stocking the tank as fast as they can. Too many times I've seen customers walk in with tanks stocked past the limit within the first 6 months of the set up. Then they come back after a year and complain they have terrible algae problems or that all their fish are getting sick. I can't stress enough the benefits of being patient. One more thing, I'm really sick of people treating the fish as if it were an ornament to put in a glass box. These are living creature with (to some extent) feelings and personality. I don't understand why people insist on give the fish less than adequate conditions. My biggest pet peeve is tangs in anything smaller than 100 gallons. All those poor hippo tangs that have died because of an ignorant hobbyist putting it in a tank that is way too small. I hate that excuse "but its small and I will switch it to another tank when it gets bigger" statement. That fish will probably develop growth problems before you decide to invest in a bigger tank. Would you keep your child in a 3'x3'x3' room, over feed it and clean it once a month? will it be healthy? Think about it people!!! treat it as if it was your own child and it will reward you. I promise.
<<I understand your concern, the vast majority feel the same. Let us hope this type of fishkeep always stays, at most, in the minority of the hobby>>
Thank you for your time.
Pat
<<Thank you for the questions and comments, A Nixon>>

RDSB Water Flow Questions 12/21/2007
WWM Crew,
I just finally finished reading the many pages of information on deep sand beds and nitrate reducing methods. I found it to be an excellent discussion and a wealth of information. However, I have a question that remains unanswered...
For background, I have a new 210G BB SPS dominated tank with a 60G sump, and I'm using a 75G AGA (48" x 18") for a RDSB with 6" of sugar size sand. The RDSB is not lighted. I have 150# of Tonga LR in the main display. I'm using a Reeflo 250 Orca as my skimmer and I typically run carbon passively in my sump. Flow through the entire system is high with detritus staying in suspension and being removed via a filter sock in the sump. My main focus/desire for the RDSB is for nitrate reduction followed by an increase in bio-diversity of the overall system.
I'm interested in opinions on both (1) overall flow through my RDSB as plumbed into my total system (currently I'm moving less than 200G/hour through the RDSB tank with the returns directed at the top of the tank)
<This sounds good to me. I'm sure opinions vary on this, but I think as long as your moving about as much water in an hour as you have in the main tank, you're probably good. Of course, to a point, more is probably better.>
and (2) flow within the RDSB, not only in volume, but with respect to how, where, and by what means (currently I have no additional flow other than the main returns).
<Water flow actually THROUGH the DSB is largely dependent on the benthic life of the sandbed. You want to have a lot of worms, micro-crustaceans, etc. living in the sand to turn the sand grains around. This is what moves water down and through the sand.>
Specifically, I'm interested in opinions on flow techniques at the sand/ water interface level.
<If you want to add more water flow above the sand bed, you can just add a powerhead. If you don't think you can do this without creating a sand storm, you could try piling some rocks in one corner and pointing the powerhead at the rocks from the other side of the tank.>
Thanks in advance and thanks for maintaining this excellent resource.
Tony
<De nada,
Sara M.>

DOH! Anaerobiosis  11/16/07
This is a follow up question to one a few weeks ago that Bob answered (thanks Bob and thanks for the info, helped big-time!).
<Welcome Tom>
Long story short, large system, three 300 gal tanks linked together, perfect water param.s including no phosphate on Salifert (I run Phosban). I have an aged DSB (7months) in the display. I had ph issues and then ran into ventilation issues when adding additional halides, so I was not surprised when some of my SPS browned down, that was 2 months ago (I run a bugless system, dip, qt everything coming in, no signs of aefw). But over time they should have colored up so I started looking for potential issues in the system, I had bad sand in two tanks (shallow beds but not shallow enough). I shut each tank down, removed the sand, and set up a new DSB in a large refugium with tons of flow and Nassarius and Chaeto. Color started to return! However, at the same time I tested the DSB in the display by vacuuming test holes, and low and behold I found tons of Anaerobiosis.
<Easy to occur in such large systems>
SO here are my questions:
- I would love to take down the display and simply replace the DSB with new sand (I used the wrong size sand for the depth I had, I should have used sugar grain), however the DSB in the refugium is only a week old. What is the best strategy to use here, I have a ORP controller running and will be getting a sanders ozonizer next week. I am not losing any pieces and I am seeing good polyp extension, I am thinking the best thing to do would be to vacuum out and replace perhaps 1/4 of the DSB in the display a week (testing trates each week), that way by the time it all has been replaced the refugium should be NNR, correct?
<In time...>
I just don't want to implement too many changes too fast either. As a side note I have been using SeaChem's Stability to help inoculate (I know it may be a waste of time but its worth a shot).
Thanks a million, I truly appreciate everything you guys do
Tom
<If there's room, I'd just place the sugar-fine on top... an inch or more... IF no room, as you say, remove/vacuum out some of the extant and add... and be patient here for now. Bob Fenner>

Re: DSB creatures or not?  11/13/07
I'll ask some fellow reefers for a few fine sand samples. Luckily we have a healthy reefing community here in the Chicago area. :)
<You sure do. :-)>
There are a couple of reasons why I want to separate the CC and remove it from the main tank. Aesthetically I'd like the fine sand substrate
look. Chemically, I've read on WWM that crushed coral and the like (aragonite based) will lose its beneficial nutrient "leakage" within 18-24 months in an average tank, so its time to recycle it anyway.
<Well, actually, I think crew members here have had some small disagreements over if aragonite actually puts anything in the water that's beneficial. After looking at the dissolution constant (and saturation points in salt water) of calcium carbonate, I'm not convinced it dissolves in a normal reef tank (the pH would just have to be too low--again, in my opinion). But, even if it did increase alkalinity/calcium in some way, you can use other supplements to accomplish the same thing.>
Finally, the overall depth of >1" and the mix with the finer sand substrate is making me think that it may be a contributor to my never ending battle with nitrates. (yes, I do water changes regularly, etc...)
<In order for a sand bed to help with nitrates, it needs to be at least 3 to 4 inches deep. This might be helpful:
http://www.ronshimek.com/Deep%20Sand%20Beds.htm>
Removing the crushed coral should leave less than 1" depth of substrate in the main tank.
<See above.
Best,
Sara M.>

Old Sand For New DSB? – 10/06/07
Hello Crew!
<<Hiya Don!>>
Well I have my 210 AGA up and running.
<<Neat!>>
I have 54 corner FOWLR with a 6-inch DSB. When my 210 is all done cycling can I add the 80# of sand if I clean it out real well instead of buying it?
<<Sure>>
I won't need it to be live because everything will be done in the 210.
<<Okay>>
Oh by the way the sand would go into the 135 gallon sump I have and make a new DSB if I could.
<<Yep…>>
Oh yea if you haven't figure it out I want to put all my live stock and LR into the 210 and that is why I ask.
<<After the new setup is cycled I hope…>>
Thank you for your time.
Don V.
<<Regards, EricR>>

Deep Sand Bed, Low Salinity System 9/21/07
Hi. Greetings from Alaska.
<Hello from Chicago.>
I have a 55gal. FOWLR with quite a bit of fish. Bicolor angel, Raccoon B/F, Fox Lo, Royal Gramma, Flame Hawkfish, Tomato clown and a Yellowtail damsel.
<I would call that very heavily stocked, even overstocked.>
I am a big fan of hyposalinity system and that is not as a treatment but as a method of my hobby.
<I have to disagree with you here, keeping fish in anything other that natural as possible conditions is exceedingly stressful over time and leads to an early demise.>
I am running this tank for more than a year now and I have no disease or any problem on my fish during this period.
<Unfortunately I don't think this will last over the long haul as the conditions take their toll.>
I am planning to buy a HOB refugium and make a deep sand bed in it. My question is: Can a anaerobic nitrifying bacteria form or thrive in a deep sand bed with a salinity of 1.010 SG?
Thanks for your response.
Larry
<The bacteria will colonize this area, there are many species that live in all different salinity levels. However I encourage you to reconsider your approach.>
<Chris>

DSB reading referral  7/21/07
Hello. I have a couple questions regarding a sumpless, 55g mixed-reef start-up, if you'd be so kind. First, I'm going to utilize a deep sandbed of 4", and wanted to know if there's a formula to use so I know how many lbs. of sand I will need.
<Mmm, can guess... as tanks have varying dimensions, sands differing densities... you'll likely need about 120 pounds or so>
I plan to use "sugar fine" or a notch coarser (any suggestions regarding grade of sand?).
<Yes... posted...>
For seeding, what would be a good/minimum ratio of "live sand" to use along with dry aragonite?
Lastly, I figure it's smart to use two heaters, in case one fails, so what wattage for each would you suggest? As always, I really appreciate your help. Eric
<And we your taking the time to read: http://wetwebmedia.com/marine/setup/index.htm
Scroll down to the Substrates tray... DSBs... Bob Fenner>

DSB tank and planning  – 07/18/07
Hi crew,
How's it going? Good I hope.
<Thanks :-)>
Want to say thanks for answering all my questions thus far. I have a few ideas that I'd like to run by you guys and gals about a tank that I'm in the process of setting up. I have a forty gallon reef aquarium with 192 watts of daylight PC's and a cheap skimmer that works
quite well. So far I have around two inches of course sand and I was thinking about putting a 2" layer of sugar-fine sand on that to have a DSB.
<I'd take out the coarse sand and use only the sugar fine sand (or a bit finer if you can).>
Would this work?
<Well, if you're wanting it to work as a biological filter, coarse sand is not a good idea. You should have at least 3" of finer sand. Fine masonry sand works too if you don't want to pay the money for aragonite.>
Also I would like to get something in the way of a sand-sifting cucumber, seeing as they do not eat all the good creatures in the substrate like the sand-sifting stars would.
<Nassarius vibex snails are also good substrate mixers. And kudos to you for doing your research on those sand-sifting stars!>
I have around 30 Lbs. of live rock in my tank too, and would like to get a lot more.
<Ok, but it is possible to get too much live rock. It's not about weight. It's about volume. You can get more if you want, but just keep in mind that the more rock you have, the less water you have.>
As in the way of corals, I have a rock of mushrooms and a rock of Zoa's. Could I get some species of Sarcophyton and an Open Brain?
<You can get one or the other but don't get both. Sarcophytons produce toxins that are trouble for LPS corals (and especially bad for the open brain corals).>
I am also going to get the H.O.T. magnum filter. Any suggestions would be helpful.
<Hmmm... maybe run some carbon in that H.O.T. magnum.>
Thanks!
<De nada,
Sara M.>
-Nate

Re: DSB tank and planning  – 07/18/07
Hey Sara and crew,
Thanks for the quick reply. I am just going to a one question to follow through. Did you mean take out the course sand and put two inches of sugar-fine or finer sand, or take out the coarse sand and put in 4 inches of sugar fine or finer?
<Ah, sorry for not being clear. To make a proper sand bed, I suggest you take out the coarse sand and add 3 to 4 inches of sugar-fine sand (or a bit finer). You should also seed the sand with some established live sand which you can either purchase or get from a fellow reef keeper with a well populated sand bed.>
Anyway, thanks for the help.
<De nada,
Sara>
-Nate

Live Rock on Top of a DSB ? – 06/28/07
Hi there guys!
<Hi Jason>
I've got a 20 gallon fuge for my 70 gallon mixed tank.
It's a new setup, only 2 weeks old. I've placed some sugar-fine sand in the fuge. To "seed" the sand, I placed about 15 pounds of live rock (from my last snorkel dive) on top of the 4-5 inch sand. My fuge is very visible, and I like it looking nice. It is actually part of my display, separated by glass with a couple small holes.
I've got some questions regarding the setup... is it ok to leave some live rock on top of the DSB?
<Yes, Live Rock on the DSB is OK. Just make sure there is plenty of sand dwelling fauna to keep the sands maintained>
How much is too much? From what I've read on WWM so far, most people agree that live rock on top of a DSB is a nutrient sink for nitrates and live rock on DSB is a no-no, but I've found some posts stating that this is ok. I hope you guys could clear it up for me.
<There are reports that DSB become nutrient sinks. The biggest reason is nutrients aren't being exported via resins or water changes as frequently as needed so over time there is a build up. Using source water that has a zero TDS reading and changing resins and water changes every 30 days helps prevent this. Sand beds also have the ability to create ammonium (another nutrient) so the use of Caulerpa in the sump is recommended. The Caulerpa will assimilate any nutrients that the DSB may be adding to the water. With the use of Caulerpa and activated carbon/phosphate resins together you can control nutrients in the tank quite well>
If I need to take out the live rock and place it on my display, will I cause any ammonia/nitrate spikes?
Besides taking out the rock very slowly, and having some water at hand, is there anything else I can do to minimize the spiking?
<Being that the tank is 2 weeks old you will have a spike as the tank cycles. Water changes should be done at the end of the nitrite cycle. If I have misread your statement and the 70g is established and the sump is a new setup, then you should have little to no spike in the nitrogen cycle because the bacteria in the established aquarium will compensate naturally for that. As far as anything else you could do is concerned, keep up on water changes and exchange all resins every 30 days. Keep your protein skimmer cleaned at least every other week so that it is running at it's best potential. (sooner if necessary) and run your sump lights on a reverse photo period to the main tank.>
Thanks,
Jason
<Rich aka MR. Firemouth>

Another DSB/Nitrate Reduction Question – 06/23/07
I have a 58gal tank + sump with approx 45lbs live rock, crushed coral substrate.
<<This last is likely a large contributor to your Nitrate issue>>
A Finger Leather, a few Mushrooms, Xenia, Zoanthids and some Yellow Polyps.
<<But for the Xenia, quite a noxious combination>>
All are small and well spread out.
<<But in a relatively “small” volume of water…do employ some purposeful chemical filtration (Poly-Filter/Carbon)>>
Livestock = Yellow Tang,
<<Tank is not big enough for this fish, mate>>
Maroon Clown, Royal Gramma and a Sixline Wrasse + Snails and Hermits.
<<Not that you should consider it now, but if things change, that Pseudocheilinus will make future fish additions problematic>>
Protein skimmer that makes about an 8-12oz of dark skimmate a week. My nitrates are consistently in the 20s.
<<Ah yes, this needs to come down. It’s hard to say for sure but, perhaps you need a better/more efficient skimmer>>
5-gal water change every 2 weeks with aged RO water.
<<Allowing the salt mix to “blend” for several days I hope>>
It’s understood that by increasing water changes, I will dilute the Nitrates, but I do not want to have to do this on a permanent basis.
<<Mmm, understand the mindset…but on this small volume this is an inexpensive and most healthful process. And doubling the volume to 10-gallons could make a very big difference here>>
Reduced feeding does not seem to help reduce the Nitrates.
<<Coming from somewhere else>>
It seems that I have a lot of debris in the crushed coral even after using a gravel vac.
<<Course substrates can be very problematic>>
I have taken some crushed coral out and cleaned it but I am afraid to do a lot at once for fear of shocking the tank.
<<Mmm…may not be much of an issue if the existing depth/volume is small>>
I think that a DSB is the way to go.
<<I am a strong proponent of this methodology>>
After the DSB is up to par I would add more live rock.
<<Don’t act too quickly re the rock…fishes need room to roam>>
At the present, 100lbs of pet store aragonite is not in my budget.
<<The retail side of the hobby IS proud of this stuff>>
I see 4 ways to get to my goal of having a DSB. 1) Remove all of the crushed coral at once and add a bag at a time of aragonite over several months until it reaches the 4-6 in. depth. 2) Add a 12x16x4 DSB in the sump inside a plastic container and then do the above. 3) Wait until I can get enough sand to do the change at one time. 4) Wildcard option, to use limestone play sand that I found in a local Home Depot (Chicago region).
It did pass the vinegar test, but it does not say where it is from. The pallet is in a slot marked Old Castle but I did not see Old Castle on the label, I can/will check again.
<<This is probably not Limestone but rather Aragonite sand…and most desirable/useful as such re our hobby>>
If these were your choices, what you would do?
<<Hmm, a combination of all these choices! I would purchase sand from Home Depot…add the DSB to the sump and wait a week…remove the crushed coral from the display and add the full depth of sugar-fine Aragonite to create the DSB… And do consider rinsing this sand before adding to the display. Some authors say this isn’t necessary…and on new systems it is less of an issue…but I speak from experience when I say you will not like the result if you merely dump this sand in to your existing display without rinsing away at least “some” of the “fines”>>
Until the nitrates are lower, I will not add anything and will have to increase the water changes.
<<Good>>
I consult the WWM regularly and am thankful to all of the crew for the comprehensive site.
<<The “Crew” is happy you find the site useful>>
I do not understand how you all have the time and patience to answer our repetitive questions.
<<Hee-hee! Can be trying at times for sure…but the greater good we “know” we are doing far outweighs the occasional inconvenience or thoughtless/selfish querier. And to be fair, the “Crew” has it easy compared to Bob who must “handle” all the queries we leave, as well as maintain the site/post all for the public’s edification>>
After reading your daily questions for a while, I have come to the conclusion that many of us who ask questions (myself included) are not ready to accept the hard truth; we want a magical cure to Ich and other problems, as in my case Nitrate reduction.
<<Ah yes! Tis true many write in looking for validation for something they know is wrong, and subsequently refuse to accept the “hard truth” as you say…but by far the majority of folks are just looking for some “personal” attention/guidance to their dilemmas. And as we often tout here…nobody should rely on a “single” source for their information anyway. Hobbyists should research/attempt to gain information from a variety of sources (books, NET chat forums, WWM, hobby clubs, etc.) and use their own good judgment to choose a course of action…WWM is just one cog on the wheel>>
Thank you!
<<Quite welcome…and “thank you” for this opportunity to rant [grin]. Eric Russell>>

DSB/ Coral Sand 6/20/07
Hello,
<Hi>
I'm about to set up a DSB to help with my high nitrates problem. This may well be a stupid question but is coral sand the same thing as aragonite? <Yes, or at least most likely both are calcium based.> I can get hold of some sugar fine coral sand for my DSB but I am struggling to get some aragonite. Seachem and AquaMedic bring aragonite into South Africa but there's none around at the moment. So, will coral sand do the same thing? <Yes, you can make sure it is calcium based with a little vinegar, looking of it to sizzle a little.>
I did read your DSB page a couple of years ago and set one up with aragonite. It did reduce my nitrates to zero in weeks, amazing. However, I moved house and built a 900 gallon system. I never got around to doing another DSB and my nitrates have shot up so quick.
One more question, when we moved house and my system, my LFS people said I had to throw away my DSB because disturbing the sand would release all the bad stuff. So I did throw it away. Is this right? <That’s what I have done when moving, once exposed to air the nitrate reducing bacteria die, you are starting from scratch in that regard anyway. You could clean out the existing sand and reuse it, but that always seemed like more work that it is worth.>
<Chris>
Thank you so much, again.
Kind Regards,
James.

DSB questions 6/6/07
Hi Crew,
<Ed>
Thanks for all your help so far. You've been an invaluable resource in helping this noob get started on the right foot.
I have a 42 Hex with 40 lbs LR, a 3 inch sandbed (mixed fine live sand and CC), 175 MH pendant, Remora skimmer on MJ1200, and a rio400 powerhead for added circulation cycling for 5 weeks now. What's in there so far is the cleaning crew (2 skunk cleaners shrimp, 1 sm. brittle star, various hermits and snails) and a couple small frags (few Zoa buttons, GSP, 1 sm Xenia stalk, 1 sm mushroom) and no fish yet. I do a once a week 5 gallon water change and top off with RO/DI water. Everything is doing quite well.
My question is about the sand bed. My nitrates have been sitting pretty steadily at 5-10ppm. I was concerned that maybe my sand bed is just a bit too shallow or coarse. Might this be the case?
<Mmm, yes... and your system is new...>
I've read that DSB's will perform differently depending on the situation and my tank is taller than it is wide, hence lower surface area. Can I add more fine live sand at this point without affecting the tanks cycle?
<Likely so, yes>
Would this even help?
<Ditto>
I did just add 10 Nassarius snails this week. Before that, nothing was really sifting through the sand which I realized after some research is quite necessary. Would more sand stirrers be beneficial?
<Not really>
I guess 5-10ppm nitrates isn't that bad and maybe I'm just being impatient, but I'd like to see them at 0 before adding any more livestock. Thanks so much for you time =D
Ed Gambler
<Mmm, will likely never be zero here... w/o the addition of more outside filtration of a few possible designs... I take it you have read on WWM re Nitrates and their control. Bob Fenner>

Lighting a DSB, possible coral grow out system in sump.  3/30/07
Hello
<Dzien dobry Lukas, Mich here.>
This is my first e-mail to you. I'm writing from Poland.
<Welcome!>
I have a 600 liters reef aquarium and I just started my DSB in sump. It measures 50cm X 40cm and the sand is 8.5 deep (size of aquarium is 160cm x 60 x 60)
<Very nice.>
and my question is: does the lighting above DSB have any influence on it.
<Oh, yes, of course.>
Is it bad or is it maybe worthwhile to light.
<Depends on what you want to do.  You can have a DSB for NNR that does not have any lighting.  If you want a refugium to grow macroalgae you will need some kind of lighting, though, it can be minimal.>
if it is good what kind of light do you recommend- I'm thinking about two T5 24w - I want to put some propagated corals in sump to grow in peace.  
<If you want a place to grow out photosynthetic corals you will need lighting.  The two T5 would be fine for macroalgae but you may need more than what you have depending on the corals you are trying to propagate.  Give it a try, you could always add more lights with the T5's.  I think the T5's are an excellent place to start.  There are many FAQ's on coral propagation.  Could start here and continue with links in blue:  http://www.wetwebmedia.com/corlpropfaqs.htm  >       
I know it's lot of thinking but I hope you will help me
<Will most certainly try!>
Looking forward
Lukas
PS. Sorry for my language if it is abusive
<Hee!  Not abusive at all.>
Please answer me on this email if its possible
<Will do!  -Mich>

Re: Lighting a DSB, possible coral grow out system in sump.  3/30/07
I think I have too much nitrates in my system
<Have you tested your levels?>
so I would like to reduce them by DSB.
<Excellent!>
So if I want to use it for NNR and don't want to have any macroalgae but still have some light for soft corals propagation at first,
<You can do this.  Macroalgae would also help with NNR.>
I will light the DSB in that case would it be bad for it?
<No, Not bad.>
or it makes no difference if there will be no alga.
<You can light it, but it is not required if there are no corals or algae present.>
any animals you recommend for DSB, some sea stars etc...?
<Nothing you need to purchase, life will self seed from your live rock...you have live rock correct?  -Mich>

Re: Lighting a DSB, possible coral grow out system in sump.   3/31/07
Yes I have 80kg of live rock in show tank.
<Glad to hear!>
But in the sump I have just few very small pieces, is it necessary to put some more in the sump?
<You can, but is not necessary.>
Won't it "destroy" the surface of DSB that I think is very important.
<No.  It is not the surface of the DSB that is critical, the DSB works as a whole. The surface is important, but the depth and the grain size are equally or more important.  You may want to consider a book titled "Reef Invertebrates" by Anthony Calfo and Robert Fenner.  The first part of the book does an excellent detailing such living filters.>
Ohh and what about the circulation above the DSB. Should it be strong?
<No, is not necessary for just the DSB.  If you decide to propagate corals in this area you will need some good circulation.      Mich>

Adding CaribSea Mineral Mud to existing DSB refugium   3/29/07
I have a 90-gallon reef tank with a 29-gallon refugium that's been set up for about 6 months.  Currently, the refugium has a 6" DSB (sugar-fine aragonite) with about 20 pounds of live rock frags placed over the top of the sand bed.  Above the live rock, there is about 8" of open water where I grow Chaetomorpha.  I've been contemplating adding Mineral Mud to my refugium to provide a better environment for anaerobic bacteria, and burrowing micro-fauna, as well as time-release additions of trace elements.  In order to do this, I believe I will have to do the following:
* Take out all of the live rock & DSB
* Drain the water from the refugium
* Lay down a 1" thick layer of Mineral Mud in the empty refugium
* Put the DSB back over the top of the Mineral Mud (gently to avoid mixing)
* Replace the live rock frags
* Refill the refugium using a dinner plate to avoid disturbing the sand bed
<Mmm, I would not do this... NOT mix the mud and calcareous substrates>
Question No. 1 - do you think there is substantial benefit to adding the Mineral Mud to my existing system?
<There likely is, however I would keep the two types of media in separate areas...>
Question No. 2 - if yes, do you believe the steps above are the best way to accomplish this?
Thank you in advance,
Steve Lasik
<Mmm, please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/refugdsbfaqs.htm
Bob Fenner>

Re: Adding CaribSea Mineral Mud to existing DSB refugium  3/30/07
Bob, thank you for the link to pertinent questions.  I tried to find FAQs that specifically addressed my situation, but could not.
<We must need keep pressing on... adding "more complete answers"... in the form of "articles"...>
A follow up question: I want to split my refugium area (12" x 20" inside a 29-gallon tank) into two separate compartments, one for a DSB w/ Chaetomorpha, the other for a mud substrate w/ Gracilaria.  Would it be better to split this lengthwise into two parallel channels (6" x 20"), or just two 12" x 10" compartments, with one flowing into the next?
<Interesting question... I don't think either algal arrangement will result in more/less competition in any sense... but do think I'd go with the parallel arrangement... to aid experimentation further in adjusting water flow rate, lighting... Bob Fenner>

Re: Adding CaribSea Mineral Mud to existing DSB refugium  3/30/07
Okay, I will divide the refugium into two parallel channels, 6" x 20" with equal flow going to both sides.  This leads me to two more questions:
1. Do you agree the Chaetomorpha & DSB should go together in one channel, and then the Gracilaria & mud together in the other (my logic here is the Gracilaria will root in the mud, whereas the Chaetomorpha just floats)?
<Mmm, yes... I do agree>
2. Should I put some of the live rock rubble in each channel, or put all of it on the DSB side?
<For me, this latter>
Thank you for your continued input,
Steve
<And you for yours. BobF>

DSB Set-up Questions  - 02/15/07
<Snowy greetings! Mich with you today.>.
I want to add a DSB to my aquarium for NNR.  I'll give you the details of my system before I ask the question.
<OK.>
My tank is about 2 years old.  220 gallon tank, FOWLR.  About 200 pounds of LR.  Coralife Super Skimmer 220.  About 1 to 1-1/2 inches of very fine sand in the tank.  The LR and the skimmer are all the filtering I have, no bio balls.
<Alright.>
I just purchased a 40 gallon heavy-duty tote that I want to add
alongside my sump for NNR.  The new tote is kind of short and wide, so it appears to be at least 25% of the surface area (in terms of square footage) of the main tank.  
<OK.>
I thought that I would put about 6 inches of the Home Depot play sand in the new tote for the DSB.  I like the look
of crushed coral, so I thought about replacing the fine sand in the display tank with 1/2 inch of crushed coral.  I would move the fine sand from the main tank to the DSB to mix with the Home Depot sand.  So, I wouldn't actually be removing the current sand from the system, just moving from the display to the DSB. Does this seem like a reasonable set-up to you?  
<Mmm, yes, though I would consider going deeper than 6 inches if possible.>
Am I doing anything that would cause more harm than good?  
<Mmm, not that I can think of.  I would add the sand from the display last to the 40 gallon tub, to preserve the life in the sand from the display it should be the top layer in the tub.>
Thanks for the help.
<Welcome!  -Mich>

Re: DSB Set-up Questions  - 02/15/07
<Hello again!  Mich here.>
Thanks for your prompt reply!  
<You're welcome!>
You mentioned that I should go deeper than 6 inches of sand in the DSB.  How deep would you suggest? I've not seen anyone recommend sand deeper than 6 inches in WWM before (not that I mind making it deeper).
<Over time, due to the buffering properties of the sand, some of the sand will dissolve and compact and the 6 inch sand bed you started with may become a 5 inch sand bed.  If it were me/mine, in a remote setting I would start slightly deeper, but it really is up to you.  You want a minimum of 4 inches.   You will see varying opinion if you read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/nutrientcontrol.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dsbdepth.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dsbfaq2.htm  >
Thanks
<Welcome!  -Mich>

Deep Sand Bed 1/5/07
Hello Crew:
<Hi>
I currently have a 55 gallon reef that I am trying to add a DSB to.  I am slowly adding the sugar fine sand and I am now up to about 4 inches.  The problem that I am having is that my four Maxi Jet 1200's are blowing the sand like CRAZY.  <I bet, big powerheads.>  I don't want to change them because my corals are doing very well with them.  I was wondering if I could use different substrate as the top 2 inches for the DSB.  I was thinking crushed coral.  <Not really, will trap debris and cause nitrate problems.>  If I can use crushed coral do you have any recommendations on how to avoid the milky water that crushed coral always causes? <Wouldn't use.> I know you can rinse it for ever and still get the cloudy water.  I do not use a filter just an Aqua C Remora and am concerned that the cloudy water would last forever.  Thank you so much for your help.
<Best bet is to try to rearrange the powerheads.  Maybe find a configuration that works better.  Crushed Coral will only add problems long term.>
<Chris>

DSB's... lighting?    12/26/06
Hi crew.
<KB>
I was wondering if a DSB has to have appropriate lighting for success.
<Mmm, no... unless other organisms used that require light...>
I was planning on treating my 'water change' water as it has around 20ppm nitrate when it comes from the tap.
<I would not drink or use this water for cooking... See WWM re water treatment>
I was thinking about getting 2, 100 liter tubs, putting a 6 inch DSB in one and cycling the water from one to the other and back again. I am planning on storing them under my house where it is quite dark. Also how long do you think the water needs to be treated in this quarantine area before I can put it in the main system, then replaced and
start treating again, another batch of water?
<Likely about a week... you will see>
Does it need to be heated the same temp as the main tank?
<Yes... tropical, stable>
My other option was to put the water in the main system and treat it there with a HOB fuge with DSB, but again, I’m unsure about lighting (if at all).
Many articles on your site say you should have opposite cycles, but is this necessary?
<Not necessary for a DSB itself... however "reverse daylight photoperiods" in sumps, other areas that are tied-in with ones main-display system/s that are illuminated when that/those system/s lighting is off are very useful>
Thank you for your awesome knowledge and taking the time.
Merry Christmas from Down under, Sydney
<And to you and yours. Bob Fenner>

Using alternate substrate for DSB + coral sand for buffering.  - 10/28/06
Crew,
This is Amod Oak from India. First of all, a BIG thanks to you volunteers!
Without delay, here's the deal:
Prospective tank specifications: 30L x 24B x 30H inches.
Prospective DIY sump specifications: 30L x 18B x 24H inches, with a total of 4 chambers, first two (small) acting as mechanical filtration + skimming chambers, the third, the biggest one intended as a refugium, and finally the last one housing the return pump.
The query: In India, we have access to aragonite sugar fine sand that is very very costly. It is not feasible to use it for a DSB. So I was wondering, can I use some alternate but inert substrate of sugar fine size for a DSB? For e.g. crushed, sugar fine marble sand?
<Can... not nearly as soluble/suitable though>
Yes, I know that it wont help in buffering, but here's my second question, what if I use the aragonite or maybe crushed coral sand in the refugium to help with the buffering? That way, I will have both.. DSB (without buffering capabilities) and aragonite/coral sand in the sump with buffering capabilities? (aragonite/coral sand in the sump so that quantity required will be less.)
<Will likely work... am surprised there are not more ready sources of crushed coral sands>
And the last question, all over the site I have read that BECAUSE other alternate substrates are not made up of soluble calcareous substance, they wont help in NNR.
<Mmm, not so>
But isn't that wrong? NNR is achieved due to anaerobic biological activity in the DSB, so how is calcium associated with it? As long as buffering is assured, wont NNR carry on in any sugar fine, inert, spherical DSB?
<There is some natural nitrate reduction possible in/with all substrates>
P.S: I have not included any other system specifications because my question only concerns using non calcareous substrate for a DSB.
Thanks and regards,
Amod Oak.
<You should do fine here. Thank you for sharing. Bob Fenner>

DSB In A Bucket - 10/20/2006
Dear Bob, James, Steve and the entire crew (also Anthony if he is still around),
How are ya?!
<Tired, answering lots of questions today and getting sick of the computer lol. And Anthony is off and on.>
Anthony Calfo awhile ago advocated the idea of using a DSB in a 5 gallon bucket to reduce nitrates in a reef setup. The idea as I understand it, is to simply get a bucket with any type of sand and have filtered water move across the surface back to the tank/sump (bucket is to be covered to prevent light from getting in). What is your opinion of this? There is not too much on this topic in the FAQs. RC has a lot of opinions on this but I need "real
advice" from experts (yes I'm kissing up!). I am thinking about doing something similar.
<Okay so first thing, there is no such thing as an expert in this field. Being an expert implies that you know it all and I'm sorry to say no one does. Sorry my personal peeve. But there are lots of people who do know lots of things. That being said, the idea is to set up some type of extra way to remove nitrates and if you have tanks that have problems with nitrates then anything that you can do to help this is a good idea in my opinion.>
I originally planned on using a converted Amiracle SL 150 Wet/Dry filter (about 12-13 gallons) as my refugium for my new 120 gal (I will only have a half inch sand bed in the display). With my space limitations under my stand, this was the biggest refugium that would work. I was originally going to have a 5-6 inch  DSB in there with my Chaeto but I am beginning to decide against this because of the volume the DSB will take away from the
Chaeto/water (I obviously have a separate sump for my skimmer, phosphate reactor etc). BTW my water was going to be pumped into the refugium from my sump and then gravity fed back into the sump.
<Just a thought here, I usually run my refugiums separate from my sumps so I can control the rate of flow through the refugiums to get optimum removal of nitrates.>
Do you agree with my concern about the DSB taking volume from my Chaeto - my main goal is nutrient export and pod production - or am I over thinking this?  
<I see why you are thinking the way you are. I think for your particular purposes this might be the way to go or you could have no sand base whatsoever.  Anthony had various points to using the DSB with his removal and changing to a small sand base looses those cleansing aspects as well but if you only want to do this for the nutrient removal then the Chaeto is the way to go.>
Back to my original question i.e. DSB in a bucket and assuming you agree with the effectiveness of it and that my 13 gallon refugium is too small for a DSB and Chaeto,  here is what I plan on doing. Instead of using a bucket I plan on using a 6 gallon green water storage container (used for camping) and drill two holes for bulk heads on the side. I would fill the container with about the equivalent of 5 gallons volume of sand from my old tank after washing it thoroughly to remove Hydrogen Sulfide smell etc.
<If you wash your sand you loose all the good benefits as well. Just take sand from the very top disturbing no more than 1/4 of the sand at a time. You can do this over an extended period of time. Also, you don't want to dig way deep into the sand anyway in your tank because you want to avoid problems in your main tank.>
I would then simply get a Mini jet water pump and pump water from my sump and allow
gravity to feed it back to my sump. There would be no need to cover the bucket since the green container with the lid would take care of light getting in. Would this work and/or am I missing something here?  
<I think that would work along the same concept of what Anthony was proposing as well.>
Thanks again for all that you do (Sorry for the long post)  
<Long posts welcomed, sorry about the delay in answering.>

Miracle Mud & DSB...Can I Use Both? - 11/10/05
Hello There
<<Hello>>
I love your forum, your assistance and guidance is an absolute wonder for the Aqua-ciety.
<<We're pleased you find it useful.>
I have a quick question, I did read your FAQ's and I did not come across any discussion or topic specifically about using a DSB and Eco-System filtration combined.
<<ok>>
My setup - 120 gal, 6" aragonite DSB, 100/lbs live rock. I am wondering 1 thing.  According to the Eco-System website installation procedures, they specifically instruct the public NOT to use more than 1" sand bed in the main tank along with their filtering system.  I have read your pages on DSB's and I agree for a DSB for main tank filtration but I wanted to add the Eco-System refugium below the tank for extra filtration.  Do you recommend using a DSB 6" inline with the Eco-System/refugium with their product MM (Miracle Mud)?
<<No reason you can't do this.  The choice is yours to either follow the Eco-System procedures exactly, or in your case since you already have the DSB in the tank, to use a "modified" version.  I don't think employing both methods together is going to "hurt" anything.>>
Any insight would greatly be appreciated.  Also, I was curious to know if I had to read your comments on the web or would you be so kind to email me directly?
<<We do both...we post and reply.>>
Thanks in advance and thank you for you wonderful efforts in this hobby.
Sincerely,
Maurice Rousseau Jr.

Refugium Methodology...Reverse Flow DSB? - 02/11/06
Hi,
<<Hello>>
I have a 210g reef tank (200lbs. LR and a large number of corals) with a 40g sump and a 40g refugium.
<<cool>>
Lighting is an Aquamedic space light with 3-250W 20K HQI.  My skimmer is an Aquamedic model, not sure of the model number but
I have found it to be excellent.
<<ok>>
The pump for the return is a Dolphin 3000gph.  I have been toying around with various ideas to try to improve on the refugium because it's not doing what it is supposed to do which is act primarily as a nitrate reducer.
<<I see...>>
In talking to various people, I came across an idea that intrigued me but have not been able to verify it.  In a nutshell, it uses a plenum (~2"tall) and has approximately 5-6" of sand on top.
<<You don't need the plenum...>>
The interesting part is that a pipe is run under the plenum and water is slowly pushed thru the sand and then returns to the main tank.
<<Hmm...ok>>
I have not been able to verify the effectiveness of this, and while I don't mind experimenting, I would prefer not to do anything that would have a truly detrimental affect.  Any ideas would be great.
<<I'm not familiar with this methodology...for my two cents, I would employ a simple lighted vegetable refugium with a 6" sugar-fine DSB and Chaetomorpha algae.  But if you're interested, do set up a test system as described, and let us know your findings.>>
L
<<Regards, E >>

Screen between sand layers?
Dear Crew:
Last Sunday I put sand (approx. 4'') in my new tank. I got so excited doing it that I forgot to place the mosquito screen between the layers (to prevent the sand sifters from disturbing the DSB) as I was going to :) I'm planning to have some sand-sifting snails and possibly a starfish in that tank. Should I take the sand out and start all over and if I don't will the snails and starfish defeat the purpose of the sand bed by turning it upside down? << I wouldn't worry about it.  With 4" you should be fine, they won't sift that far down. >>
Thank you very much for all your help.
<< Don't worry, just take it slow. >>
Peter
<<  Blundell  >>

Sand bed grain size...
Hi guys.
<Stephan>
Reading thru your pages I find that a lot of people set up their DSB with different grain size. Is this a new thing?
<Mmm, not really... folks have used single or mixed grain sizes...>
What is the real advantage over one size grain style. What two grain sizes (in or mm) would those be and how is it implemented or installed? Thanks for the clarification.  Sincerely, Stephan
<Mmm, let's see... the size of individual grains dictates the amount of surface area per cubic volume... so, smaller is better by and large... Mixed sizes tend to "clog, channel" more than single grain diameter... Depending on depth of the bed, composition, angularity... most folks settle on diameters in one millimeter nominal range... In actual practice... having more of all sizes, depths generally works out... that is, if anything, folks have too little of any given grain size, depth... Bob Fenner>

Upon What Bed do Sleeping Dogs Lie? Not a Deep Sand Bed!
Hi Guys
<<Marina-guy this morning hey.>>
Many thanks for the continuing support, on this great site. My question is related to deep sand Beds.
<<Ok.>>
I have been having problems getting my Nitrate down and I am setting up a refugium with a small 12x12x10 tank next to my main sump, this will be fed via a water supply from my old counter current skimmer. (have upgraded to a Turboflotor 1000) The water will come in to the tank then be skimmed and returned via the skimmer to the mains sump. Where the main pump will return it to the main tank.
My idea is to have around six inches of sand in this refugium to help as a de-nitrifiers.
<<Ok. With that much sand you'll not have much room for macroalgae, those are helpful as well.>>
What I am having problems getting my head around is what size of sand to use, I have spent a few hours sifting around 50kg of coral sand to give me 2 different types of sand.
<<NUH UH! Seriously? You've been sifting through the sand? That sounds like something I would do! <giggle> >>
Type 1 is very very fine, the sort you could easily make a sandcastle from, and looks like it compacts very easily. Type 2 is much more coarse and the grains are around 1-2mm, much more loose than Type 1. Which one would you suggest is the best to use?
<<Either one, really. I've seen DSBs that looked more like Mud Beds, and others that looked like really deep gravel. The larger size, Type II, will not present the same problems such as cloudiness, remaining in suspension upon disturbance, etc. Also, if it's crushed coral, we don't have to worry about sharp edges harming any detritivores you may wish to place in there. I don't know how large the main system is, but a box that's under 1'cu seems a little small for larger setups (55g and over). In any event, you really can use either one, or both. Generally, the larger the particle size, the deeper the bed will need to be. 
Start here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/deepsandbeds.htm and note the top photo shows a tank with a substrate that is clearly not just sand. Both types CAN and do work, my friend.>>
Best regards
Robbie
<<You're welcome. Marina>> 

Upon What (sand) Bed do Sleeping Dogs Lie? Part Deux and the Idiosyncratic Englishman
Hi Marina
<<Hello again Robbie.>>
Firstly my apologies for assuming my reply would be from one of the men folk on WWM, and not one of its fair maidens
<<Hee.. we fair wenches thank you!>>
Many thanks for the speedy reply.
<<You're very welcome. This was an easy one for me.>>
So I did not really need to sift the sand...
<<Nope.>>
...us Brits have some strange pastimes eh?
<<Yeah, and I hear you lot drink this thing called a "Shandy". You're not one of those shandy-drinkers, are you?>>
The main tank is 100 gall but has a 1.5 inch bed of crushed coral with around 90kg live rock, Have a suspicion that this is acting as a nutrient trap which is causing the prob.s with the Nitrates.
<<The live rock is really quite helpful in this regard, ASSUMING it is of good quality. Know that good live rock actually contains some anaerobic bacteria that further break down nitrate into nitrogen, et al. Also, the crushed coral does require a good deal of maintenance, debris/detritus accumulations are problematic. A sand bed in the display may be an option, since those 90 gallon tanks are rather tall.>>
I really just want the 'fuge just to help with Nitrates, if I go with the really fine sand then I could add a sand sifter star to this to keep it stirred?
<<Yes, and you don't have to have sand to help with nitrate reduction, though creating an anaerobic area is the idea here. Also, uptake of nitrogenous wastes/nutrients by Macroalgae helps prevent its buildup in the first place. The refugium is an excellent idea/move, but can be further expanded upon.>>
Thanks again for all the help. Robbie
<<You're quite welcome, and do read that link I sent you, along with the others. Also, find yourself reefs.org, Advanced Aquarist online magazine, as well as Conscientious Aquarist online magazine on our site. Should be more helpful information there. Marina>>

Deep Sand Beds...Silica Sand? - 06/03/05
Hi, Home Depot has 30 mesh, which is fine grade material. It is made for sand blasting. The bag says silicone. Are these pellets safe and do-able for a deep sand bed?
<<Silica sand is very "do-able" for a deep sand bed.  Just be aware you won't get any buffering capacity as with aragonite, nor is it as soft/easy on the skin of burrowing creatures.>>
Thanks, Dan.
<<Welcome, Eric R.>>

Deep Sand Beds? #2 - 06/03/05
Hi, I understand that the stuff I can buy at Home Depot is silica sand.  For a 100 gallon tall, how deep does it need to be to be effective?
<<Same as if it were a 20 tall...4" minimum, though I recommend 6".>>
Thanks, Dan.
<<Welcome, Eric R.>>

Using a DSB and LR
Hello!
<Hi there>
I have not purchased my tank yet as I have been researching the different filtration setups. Since my budget is very small, when I came across the DSB method I thought it would be more economical in the long run (since there is a cost to replace filter media and electricity costs.) However, the more I have read into it I began to realize that as with all things in saltwater aquaria...there is not one way to do it.
<Ah, yes...>
I did my research, but i still have questions. I am thinking that I should do a deep sand bed (mine will be 5 inches to accommodate a jawfish which I intend to purchase at a later time) without a plenum on the bare glass of the 29 gallon  tank. I have used a sand bed calculator and found that I will need 73 pounds of sand. Some aquarists recommend using 50% live sand. 25% crushed coral, and 25% crushed shells. Another aquarist said in the Aquarium Fish magazine that the coral and shells would be too large and coarse for the delicate organisms (such as worms)
<Mmm, no>
to move in the substrate without injury. I also think that the coarser substrate would damage my future jawfish.
<Again, not... Opistognathids dig about, move the larger bits where they want... in captivity, the wild>
This same aquarist suggested using 10% of my tanks total volume in pounds should be live sand. This completely confuses me--how can the volume (gallons) turn into the mass of the sand (pounds)?
<Just a rule of thumb likely>
I would appreciate it greatly if you could tell me how much live sand to put in my future tank, and if not all 73 pounds, what other substrate I can use to fill up the level to 5 inches.
<I would just buy/use five, perhaps ten pounds of actual LS... the rest will be inoculated sufficiently hence>
Please keep in mind that my budget is very small. Speaking of my small budget, I am interested in purchasing live rock to aid in filtration, to beautify my tank and so I can later have coral and anemones. I have read that I need one pound per gallon of live rock. In my area that runs about 200 dollars. (for the 29 gallon tank) I am hoping that I either do not need that much because of the DSB or that I can add it ten pounds at a time.
<Don't need that much, can add a bit at a time... best of course to re-cure outside the system>
I am also thinking I will definitely need a protein skimmer, but perhaps with this filtration system I don't?
<A useful tool... you can try it without... more expense in the long haul in synthetic water... to maintain quality>
Also when I place LR in the tank wouldn't I need to put it right on the glass bottom so it doesn't fall and crush my fish?
<Mmm, no... not really... Place the larger pieces first, securely mount smaller on top... as the DSB dissolves, gets tunneled about all should settle a bit w/o falling>
So then would I put the live sand in afterward around the live rock? Or is it okay for the LR to be on top of 5 inches of sand?
<The latter>
I know these are a lot of questions, but with all my research I have not found a better place to get a straight forward answer. Thank you very much for your help and time!
Jennifer
<Glad to share... keep investigating, sorting through your possibilities, choices. You'll do fine. Bob Fenner>

DSB Questions - 08/26/05
I have been reading quite a lot of your information on DSBs.
Because of your information I have decided to go with a DSB for filtration on my 90g reef tank.
<<Super!  I'm a DSB fan myself.>>
My proposed setup is a 30g with 3 separate compartments. The first is the stable water level where the skimmer goes 10"X12", the second is the refugium area, 21"X12"X14"deep, and the last area is for the over flow with mechanical filter and a small portion of bioballs then to the return pump.  My plan is to illuminate the refugium area counter to the main tank 14 hours a day with 40 watts of PC lighting.
<<Sounds good>>
The 4" DSB will be filled with macroalgae and detritivores.  Flow rate is directly proportional to the return of the tank, I have a 1300 gph pump on the return.  Do you have any suggestions or modifications to this set up?
<<It looks like you have things well in hand.>>
In your FAQ's I have read that DSBs should be installed properly and proper maintenance.  What is the proper installation and the proper maintenance that you are referring to?
<<Well Dallas, proper installation would be to use the correct grain size at the correct depth.  My preference is sugar-fine aragonite at a minimum depth of 4 inches (six is better).  The larger the grain-size, the deeper the bed.  Maintenance refers to high water flow...high water flow keeps detritus in suspension and out of the sand bed.>>
Thanks for all of your help.
Dallas
<<Always a pleasure, EricR>>

Getting In Deep! (Deep Sand Bed Implementation)
Love your web site. Talk about a plethora of useful information!
<Glad to hear that! Scott F. with you today!>
I'm setting up a 180 gallon marine fish/reef aquarium and am thinking about using a 4" depth DSB/1 or 2" plenum (are my numbers correct?) filtration system in a 55 gallon aquarium I'll be using for the DSB and sump.  I'm concerned whether other filtration is required.  I'm also considering skipping the sump and may set up the 180 as a self contained DSB system unless you can tell me why I should use a sump).
<Well, in addition to adding water volume to your system, a sump will provide you a "nerve center" to process system water, by utilizing chemical filtration media, mechanical media (such as pads or filter bags), macroalgae for nutrient export (in a lighted section of the sump, etc. You can also house equipment there, such as protein skimmers, probes, heaters, etc.>
In either case, once the DSB is functioning, will I need any kind of filters, such as a particulate prefilter, protein skimmer, bio ball-type filter, etc?
<Yes, in my opinion, you will. A protein skimmer is an absolutely essential piece of equipment, providing a "first line of defense" against the accumulation of organics. I would not use bioballs in your filtration system, as they will actually accumulate the very substance (nitrate) that a DSB excels at removing.>
I'm also wondering how much water flow (throughput) I should plan for the DSB sump or standalone 180 gallon DSB tank?
<Well, in the main tank, it really depends on the types of animals you intend to keep. If you are looking at a hardcore SPS setup, 10-20 turnovers per hour is minimum. You can tee off some of the flow to your remote DSB, or use any number of different configurations. Do check out the DIY site ozreef.org for lots of ideas on sump systems and designs...>
Can the DSB sump pump be used as the only circulation source for the main tank in a reef setup, or is the DSB meant to be a trickle type, meaning an additional pump is required for main tank circulation?
<Again- no hard and fast rule here. Ideally, it would be cool if you could have the remote DSB as a "supplement" to your main sump, in order to get the best of both worlds.>
Is detritus vacuuming required in the main tank in either case? Thanks, Dan Kelley
<I would not do any vacuuming other than the first half an inch or so, which will avoid disrupting the processes occurring in the DSB. You can read a lot about the many options that you have right here on the WWM site! Have fun with the research, and enjoy setting up your system! Good luck! Regards, Scott F>

10 in depth of water 2/12/04
I have s quick question, If my tank is only 10in deep can I use SO fluorescents (of the appropriate temp), changed regularly, in conjunction with T5's to light Euphyllia, Sarcophyton, Heliofungia, Pachyclavularia, Plerogyra, Catalaphyllia, Trachyphyllia? Could I possibly go to 12 in depth. Also, I will have an 11 inch sand base under them, and of course live rock in the tank so some corals could be placed higher if needs be.
All of the corals you listed will tolerate SO fluorescents with no problem, even if you increase the depth a bit.  I would recommend that you try to get four lamps per foot of tank width and cover the entire length (four lamps over a 55 or six over a 75, for example).>
Is the sand bed to deep? In the main tank I don't want the sand dissolving under the coral and lowering them, could you recommend a sugar fine sand that doesn't dissolve.
<I don't think 11" of sand is too deep, but after about 6" I don't think you will reap much additional benefit.  You also have to take into account the tradeoff of diminished water volume.  If the only goal is to get the corals closer to the light, then I wouldn't bother.  Any aragonite based sand will dissolve.  Silica sand will not dissolve, but it's use is controversial.>
I will be using Aragamax in the sump to help with buffing as well as a calcium reactor. Finally, water changes are very important and I do them frequently but as many people know what ever you spend on your equipment initially pales in comparison to what you will ultimately spend in upkeep. I am trying to set up a system that meets all the animals needs but is cost effective over time. Since I do 25% water changes every week the expense of salt is killing me, any help in getting less expensive salt that will get the job done.
<I too believe in the importance of water changes, but unless you have tremendous input, 25% per month should be more than OK.  I can often find IO brand salt for about $10 per bag and less than $40 per 200gal bucket.  Getting any brand for any less than that will be a challenge.>
I know many people say just have better filtration, but I have an excellent protein skimmer etc., low contaminants, I have just found water changes help allot, maybe its diffusing all the things we can't test for like chemical warfare etc...I just don't want to stop using them as they have worked for me.  What do coral farmers do about the huge amount of salt they need for their systems? Thank you Greg
<Again, you have my agreement about the benefit, but you may get 90% of the benefit with half of the water changes.  Small amounts of regularly changed carbon will help too.  Any business with large systems simply buys salt in large quantities.  Since a large part of the cost is freight, buying in pallet quantities saves cost.  Also, some large commercial facilities re-use water, sending "used" water from SPS systems to soft coral, fish only or live rock systems for example.  Hope this helps.  Adam>

DSB Debate...
Hello,
<Hi there! Scott F. with you today!>
Hope all is well and a very big thank you for your help!
<Our pleasure, thanks!>
I have been reading through the DSB FAQs and I am now torn as to how I will be setting up my new 55 gal SPS reef.  I really don't want to go the deep sand route as can't find any play sand that I would feel comfortable using.  (Yardright's website says that their play sand is NOT suitable for aquarium use and Home Depot in this area is using play sand from a company called Bonsal.)   
<Well, you don't have to use Southdown or other play sand for a successful DSB. Most of the fine oolithic aragonitic products made for aquarium use are just perfect!>
Basically, the tank will have approximately 65-70 lbs of LR and my plan was to have a 3/4" - 1" live sand bed (Aragalive pink Fiji) and a HOT converted (no mud, using Aragalive oolithic) Ecosystem Refugium and skimmer.  Also, the tank will not have a large fish bio load (1 barnacle blenny, 3-4 damsels, snails and 2 peppermint shrimp). My question to you is:  Would my plan work or would the benefits of the DSB be far greater?
<I believe that the benefits of a DSB would be measurably better>
Again thanks for all of your help! Cheri
<Do consider a DSB for the benefits that you seek. it's not the only way to decrease nitrates and increase biodiversity, but it is certainly one of the best...Good luck! Regards, Scott F>

DSB Advice 2/22/04
Hi,
Long time listener, first time caller…
<Glad you finally picked up the phone!>
As a project, I’m looking at building a 2 level  sump with 2 DSBs, due to not having a large available foot print under my tank. Looking at the attached highly technical drawing (which is not to scale), the yellow is the DSBs, the brown is the skimmer (water comes in in this chamber), and the black being the Out pump back to the main tank. I intend to have live rock in there too. I have a few main concerns that I was hoping you could help me with:
1. Do you see any issues in the top DSB not being under too deep water. The top level may only have a few inches of water above the sand bed. Could this be a problem, could this increase the oxygen level in that area which will  affect growth of anaerobic bacteria? Should I make that DSB thicker?
<Not an issue at all.  A thin film of water flowing over the sand would be fine.  Oxygen diffusion is primarily limited by low water exchange within the sand, not the O2 concentration in the overlying water.  A DSB should be at least 3-4" deep, so as long as you meet this minimum, that is fine.>
2. What would be optimal flow rate of this sump?
<Hard to say, but more than a few hundred gph would probably disturb the sand quite a bit, especially in the upper layer.>
3. This there a problem with the skimmer being in the initial chamber that the water enters, again, will this add too much oxygen with affect anaerobic  bacteria? Should I move it so that an exit chamber has the skimmer?
<As stated above, this is little concern in terms of O2 concentration in the DSB's.  IMO, the physical location of the skimmer is completely a matter of convenience.>
4. and lastly, are there any general problems with the design as a whole? Am I wasting my time trying to make the top layer? The sump will be a tall 2ft tank, so the top layer may be 1ft long (minus skimmer chamber + room to set up Out pump).  I have an established tank which I don't want to touch.
<You never stated what size tank this was for.  If you're current tank is bare bottom or just has a thin layer of sand, you will probably see some of the benefits of a DSB from a bed with as little as 25% of the surface area of your display (for example 2ft^2 of DSB for a 2ftx4ft (8ft^2) tank).  More is better, but what you have proposed looks like a maintenance nightmare. If you really have you heart set on more area, I would consider removable trays to contain the sand.  I would stack the trays with spacers in the center of the sump, have water enter on one end, flow through the stack of trays to the other end where the pump would be located.  This way, you could unstack the trays for maintenance, you pump would not have to be set on sand (a sure way to destroy the pump), and you could have your increased surface area.  HTH. Adam>
Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

Sorting Through Sand (Sandbed Practices)
Hi Scott,
<Hello again!>
I have a couple more questions here.
<Sure>
1. For DSB, is the denitrification effect proportional with the depth of the sand? Or is the denitrification effect more proportional to its surface area?
<Well, there is some controversy as to how deep the sand bed depth must be to foster maximum denitrification processes. Some studies have indicated that natural denitrification can occur in the top half an inch or so of sand in natural reef environments, but in aquariums, we tend to recommend minimum depths of 3 inches for maximum performance. DSB methods have been proven for years, so the practice is well documented and successful for many hobbyists.>
2. The recommended DSB thickness is 3 inches. Does this 3 inches includes the thickness for the plenum?
<Plenums require strict adherence to sand depth and grain size (see sandbed advocate Bob Goemans' site,  saltcorner.com , for more on this technique) in order to function properly. The depth that we are referring to is for "static" (plenum-less) sandbeds.>
3. How thick should the plenum be?
<The standard recommended height of the plenum area should be 1 to 1 1/2 inches, usually created with eggcrate over some PVC pipe sections. A screen is placed over the plenum, and sand (about 2-4 mm in size) is placed over that screen at a depth of about two inches. Another layer of screen is placed over that sand (to help prevent detritivores from burrowing into the plenum area and disrupting the processes within). Sand is placed over this second screen at a depth of about 2 more inches. That's all there is to it! Of course, the processes involved are a bit more complex.>
4. Do I have to keep the plenum dark? In another words will the anaerobic bacteria be affected by light?
<Well, the plenum area does not let light in>
5. To the best of my adjustment and cleaning of airstone, I get only light brown tinted skimmate in my counter current skimmer, do I have to chuck away my skimmer? Or get a more powerful air pump?
<Could very well be the solution, if all other adjustments are not working>
6. If silicate sand are used, the are minerals leached to the water going to affect livestock's health directly? Or it is just causing algae bloom?
<Silicate is mainly a contributor to nuisance algae blooms>
7. Will changing 50/50 tube to pure 6500K or 10000K tube improve
coral/anemone photosynthesis?
<I prefer 10000k for functionality, but the 50/50's look better, IMO. wattage is very important. I tend to favor metal halide over fluorescents, as they provide optimum intensity for photosynthetic invertebrates>
Thanks sooooooooooooo much... :)
Wid
<My pleasure, Wid! regards, Scott F.>

Converting to DSB
>Dear Zen masters of the zoosphere:
>>Whoa.. how very.. "anime".  Greetings, grasshoppah.  
>I'm a newbie with a 9-wk old 30 gal. glass tank, 304 Fluval w/ bioballs,
PolyFilter, and phosphate traps, Seaclone skimmer, 96 w. combo fluorescent.  Current inhabitants include 3 damsels (1-1/2"), 2 perculas (2"), and 1 yellow tang (3").  All fish are doing very well and I don't intend adding any more.  I have one polyp that is dying due to algae overgrowth (I'm trying to bring it back through periodic cleaning), and a couple of pieces of so-called "live rock" purchased from my LFS, which actually turned out to be clumps of coral with algae on them.
>>Oof, you need some good live rock.  Also, 9 weeks is a bit soon for a noob as yourself to be housing inverts just yet.  Need to let things settle down a bit, first.
>All vitals seem good-- pH 8.3, sg 1.023-4, NH3 0, N02 0, N03 10 ppm-- except Ca (350 mg/L).
>>You're not housing any stonies, and a range of 350-400 is certainly acceptable in such a situation.  You don't really want it significantly higher than 400 unless you have high calcium demands in the system.
>Anyhow, here's my problem:  I want to establish a reef tank and add inverts.  I've had tremendous algae blooms which I am starting to get under control.
My substrate is ~ 1" crushed coral.  I'm thinking a comprehensive solution to my algae/calcium/biodiversity problem would be to add a 4" DSB using Southdown (now Oldcastle) Tropical Playsand, and then seeding it with the critter pack/macroalgae from IPSF.  Does this sound like a good strategy?
>>It does, but honestly at this point I would FIRST spend the time and money on the best quality live rock I could get a hold of.  Once you have *that*, you can install the DSB, maybe some macroalgae, and not worry about buying the critter pack (unless you really want to).
>If so, my questions to you are: 1.) the sandbags say Caribbean, sterilized, silicate free, and then down at the bottom "not recommended for aquarium use."  Is this just a sop to the aquarium sand mfrs. or are you aware of any deterrent additive they've put in the sand?
>>No deterrent, just a CYA kind of situation.  Silicate isn't going to cause much trouble anyway, but is sharp-edged, and many critters aren't appreciative.  It also does nothing to help with Ca levels or alkalinity.  
>2.) Placement: reading through your site I've seen recommendations for placing the sand directly in the tank, and, conversely, removing all stock and H20 and then placing the sand.  I really don't like option 2-- more work and more stress on fish IMHO.  But what do you think?  
>>Wet the sand, and either make a "director" with PVC tubing, or just load it up into a net or cup and gently pour where you want it.  Be prepared for the cloudiness, can last up to two weeks easily.  Have a turkey baster on hand to blow it off any inverts (though you're not quite ready for them).
>3.) I've had good success in our freshwater tank maintaining a 2" river sand bed covered with a coarser aggregate that allows for periodic vacuuming.  Would it be a good idea to remove the crushed coral, place the sand, and then place the coral back on top as a covering layer, or just go with the sand, or (as I saw in another post on your site), place the sand on top of the coral and let it sift through gradually?
>>Ah, definitely, just let it migrate.
>4.)) Finally-- how long after I add the sand should I wait before adding the critter pack?  
>>I'd wait till the cloudiness goes away, but then again, as I said before, I'd buy the live rock before installing the DSB.  That's where the real value is, in my honest opinion, and it will provide you with what you seek much more ably.. is that a word?  In any event, it will provide the biodiversity you seek and then some.  
>Many thanks.  Wyatt Evans, Washington NJ.
>>Many welcomes, hope this has helped.  Marina

Re: tank setup question--Ecosystem, DSB, live rock specifics
Hello and thanks for the reply.  I have some follow up questions regarding DSB.  You mention that I should read Ronald Shimek's articles--I actually had before I wrote you and his articles actually prompted me to rethink my DSB as it is not fine grain sand.   
I corresponded with him on Reef Central and he said that I could go dig up some marine/sand mud along the coast where I live (los Angeles) provided it is in an area with no/little pollution concerns (and to check local laws don't prohibit digging up sand).  What do you think about this?  << I wouldn't do it.  With all the money we spend on our tanks, I wouldn't skip corners on buying sand.  I really like the CaribSea products and would certainly just buy sand. >> He also recommended trying what he will do for his next tank--a blend of silicate sands. << This is common where I live, but I really don't like using silicate sand.  I see no advantages to it. >> The discussion is here: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=3064537#post3064537
Let me know what you think!  Thanks for all the advice!  << I think you will be much happier with the common crushed coral types of products.  Also, if something does go wrong you'll always be questioning the sand.  So to me, it is worth the piece of mind to just get good crushed coral from the beginning. >>
Saskia
<<  Adam B.  >>

Deep Sand Bed Questions
Thanks for the reply.<MikeD here again. You're very welcome>  When we were discussing the deep sand bed option you said you liked fine grade aragonite.  Do you mean don't put a deep sand bed in at all?<Aha! what we have here is a simple matter of miscommunication. "Deep Sand Bed" refers to the depth of the substrate as opposed to the makeup of the substrate. Aragonite or crushed limestone comes in many grades, ranging from coarse pebbles a 32nd of an inch across to very fine, looking and feeling like normal silica sand in consistency>  , or do you mean use the aragonite sand??<Yes, sand grade crushed aragonite>  How about a mix of the two 4" of the Southdown, 2" of the aragonite?<that would be fine, although the finer sand will eventually end up on the bottom as it will stratify.>  Or would it be better just to use a fine layer of the aragonite and forget about a deep sand bed (in the display tank)  I do like the look though of a deep sand bed, or am I asking for trouble with these large fish?<4" of very fine crushed aragonite IS a DSB or "deep sand bed". By using true silica sand, two problems are often encountered, 1) sand is silica based, thus inert and does nothing to assist in keeping your pH alkaline, and 2) it can pack down SO tightly that it even keeps water and oxygen out, Partially this allows for anaerobic bacterial action and can be good, but conversely, if organic m