Ick on Neon Gobies 6/28/07
Hi Crew, <Hi Samuel, MacL here with you on this fine and lovely evening.>
I am spoiled and lucky that I did not have ick for 3 years. I just added some snails and frags (no QT) <EEK> and it is 10 days later and my pair of neon gobies have a few spots. <In my experience its very rare for a neon goby to get ick.> I also have a royal Gramma and a spotted cardinal and they are clean so far. The gobies always try cleaning the cardinal and he freaks out. <I doooooo love cardinals.> They do not attempt to clean the Gramma, he must have let
them know he is not interested. But now that they have ick why don't they try cleaning each other? <They probably do and you just don't see it. >
Is it best to take action right away or is it OK to wait a while to see if they can beat it on their own? <This is such a tricky call and whatever I tell you some people will say I am wrong. BUT if it was me I would watch them to see what happens. I will say that usually the time to see if the ich are getting to be more is first thing in the morning if you only look at night you often miss how many are actually in the tank.>
I will not ask you what to do because you have already done that a few thousand times. I think people keep asking because they think their situation is unique and they do not like the idea of having to catch their fish for removal from the display. So they hope a new magic formula is available. And most of the time it is their own fault (myself included). <I think that people always hope for a new magic cure too. Some have tried things like vitamin c and garlic when they first see spots of ich and for many it does work so that's a possibility as well.>
No QT is our version of Russian Roulette.
Thanks

Gill problem... Do "we" stay in Iraq or...?   12/16/06
Hi Crew,
I have a 10 gallon with a pair of neon gobies (wild caught) that I bought back in July.
<Neat>
Shortly after I got them I noticed 2 white lines in the gill of one goby. It looks like small sticks of chalk.
<Ahh!>
This goby does breath much faster than its mate and is slightly smaller. I thought about trying to remove it with tweezers (and got an affirmative from the Crew to
try) but never got up the courage.
<Is a bit "tricky"... easy to greatly damage the fish host... any bleeding is a very bad sign... best to daub the area with dilute Povidone Iodine...>
Anyway, here we are a few months later with everything about the same. They are both very active and eat well. At this point is there any reason to attempt to remove it? Or am I more likely to do more harm than good?
<An important, though impossible to answer question... As (if we look) we are often "faced" (if honest...) with similar questions, issues in our lives... "Do no harm" is a useful creed/oath of western doctors as well as would-be earnest aquarists... If the fish in question indeed doesn't appear debilitated, I would leave this likely crustacean parasite be... not likely to spread (as are to a large degree species-specific AND complex in life cycles... Bob Fenner>

Gill Parasites?... Too Small a Tank - 09/14/06
Hi Crew,
<<Hello!>>
I have a 10 gallon with a royal Gramma (18 months) and a spotted cardinal (30 months).
<<Congratulations on your success thus far...but even though these are relatively small fish, a tank at least "twice" this size would be more appropriate>>
I had a second spotted cardinal but it died when it got caught between some rock and the glass.
<<Fish don't just "wedge" themselves...likely a secondary reaction to/result from some environmental element/condition>>
So I decided to replace it with a smaller fish and got a pair of neon gobies (a real pair) about 3 weeks ago.
<<Mmm...really is time to seriously think about getting a larger tank my friend>>
They are wild caught. The only issue I have seen is that the cardinal freaks out when they try to clean him.
<<Yes, this is not unusual...and will lead to stress/death of the cardinal/other fish in such a small tank where the cardinal/other fish can't escape the attentions of the gobies>>
They do not try the Gramma so my guess is that he told them in his own way 'no thank you' and they keep away.  The two are very lively and eat well but one has a problem.  The one that has a problem started out in bad shape.
<<...?>>
I do not know if it came that way or if he tried using the grammas area to sleep the first night.
<<A prime reason for utilizing proper quarantine is to be able to "observe" your new acquisitions for problems>>
In any case, it had torn up fins and looked bruised as well.
<<Does sound like it may have taken a beating>>
It has healed well, the fins are normal and the bruises gone but I did notice it is breathing much faster than its mate.
<<Possibly has some gill damage limiting its ability to assimilate oxygen from the water/transfer oxygen to the bloodstream.  All of which would be compounded by the presence of ammonia which can/will quickly accumulate in such a small tank>>
A couple days ago I noticed two white spots in the gill on one side and it does brush against the rocks so my guess is that it is some kind of parasite.
<<A possibility, yes>>
The first question is should I just leave it since it has done well so far hoping it will overcome the problem since it is eating well.
<<One approach>>
Or should I remove it and fresh water dip it
<<Should have done this before adding it to your display>>
or treat it in a separate tank (and if so, treat it with what)?
<<Have a read through our articles/FAQs re parasitic disease (start here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/parasiti.htm) to identify the problem/proper treatment and then treat in a separate hospital tank>>
Thanks
<<Regards, EricR>>

Re: Gill Parasites? - 09/22/06
A little update on the neon goby.  The two white dots on the gill  are not dots.
<<Oh?>>
It looks like two white bars of chalk (but very tiny).
<<Hmm...>>
They are inside the gill slit like two parallel lines (=).  Actually they are about the size of the equal sign maybe slightly shorter.  The goby is still very active especially at feeding time.
<<A good sign>>
But still breaths faster then its mate.  I have this urge to take a tweezers and try to remove whatever it is but my guess is I would do more harm than good.
<<A real possibility, yes.  Probably best to leave things be and continue to observe closely, as you have been doing.  EricR>>

Quarantining and Feeding newly acquired neon gobies
Hi Bob,
Just got 6 neon gobies from FFE. I am a dedicated quarantine man and am wondering if I use standard quarantine procedures with these itty bitty
creatures? I am pretty paranoid about parasite outbreaks and want to soon throw some cleaner shrimp into the mix. Any advice on feeding the gobies,
they are so small I am a little intimidated? I truly appreciate your advice, there are so many conflicting opinions in this hobby.
Dennis Blauser
>>
And I'm probably just as guilty a party in the confusion... I generally "just" pH-adjusted freshwater dip small gobies, blennies... for fear that the stress, lack of feeding is worse than the possibility of their bringing in an external parasite problem... but/and these species (Gobiosoma genera) are almost all tank-bred and reared nowadays... and on the one hand, are typically specific pathogen free, and on the other, quite hardy... readily accept all types of foods (though they are small)... 
Don't feel bad about quarantining them if you are concerned at all, nor about whether they will eat.
Bob Fenner

Neon gobies
Hello Mr. Fenner:
About a month ago I wrote you with an ick problem. My Catalina goby, Black Cap Basslet (the culprit) and Yellow head Jawfish died. My reef tank had been running for 2 years, so somebody suggested to me just to let the tank keep running and that the fish that I had in there were hardy Yellow coris Wrasse, Dwarf lion, bicolor blenny, male and female scooter blennies). I added a cleaner shrimp and the fish never showed any white spots after the infected fish died. I plan on waiting one more month before adding any other fish, so my question is: even though the fish that I have don't show any sign of ick could they still carry the disease????? Also I plan on adding another biological cleaner neon goby). Could these fish contract ick???
<Good questions... and thanks for the considerable background information. Yes, your fishes might still be "carriers"... and definitely your system is infested (still)... How to say what needs to be said here? Please do read over the "Three Sets of Factors that Determine Livestock Health" on the www.WetWebMedia.com website... very worthwhile model of how the universe works.... Many folks seem to display an "arithmetic" version of disease processes... with "A" leading to "B", resulting in "C" (let's say host, stress, ich)... what really is going on is a constant "balance" between the system (big categories here), dynamics of the livestock, their genetic and developmental physiologies... and the presence/pathogenicity of infectious agents... 
IF you can keep the present system optimized and stable, and IF you can introduce organisms/livestock that are relatively hardy, sturdy from the get-go... then the present entrenched problems will likely not manifest themselves as parasitic disease... Bob Fenner>

Re: Neon gobies
Thanks for replying to my message Mr. Fenner. Seeing that my fish might still be carriers should I lower the salinity in my tank and raise the temp
for two weeks?? I really don't want to use any medicine. Will this work in leaving my tank ick free??
<A good idea, practice... but this won't completely make the system "ich free" (rarely do such absolutes exist...), though it would substantially reduce the resting stages numbers, infectiousness.... I would definitely do this... 
It has been demonstrated that the daughter cells of Cryptocaryon can "rest" for several months w/o fish hosts... 
Bob Fenner>

Something on a neon goby
Dear Zo,
Lucky Bob - thanks for filling in.
<Hmm, asked Zo-ster to look this over... but will do so as well...>
My system is 9 months old, Bob has guided me since the planning stages. Total 140 gal. including 20 gal. refugium full of Caulerpa. All water parameters are perfect with 25 watt U/V at 200 GPH, large mechanical, carbon, Turboflotor, substrate and live rock. I have SPS and soft corals, shrimp, small hermits, snails, and 8 small peaceful fish. Nitrates and phosphates are undetectable since the refugium filled up with macro algae. I have not yet lost an animal but see a problem with the neon gobies.
<Really?>
I will see one with a scaly? coat. Looks a bit like the pictures of "fin rot"
but all over the fish. Then in a few days it is gone. No problem with their eating. No hiding. No way I could ever get these little guys out for treatment but I am very curious as to what this is and if I can do anything to prevent it. All other fish look fine. The only environmental problem I have had was a spike in sp. gr. to 1.029 when a pump in the auto top off failed while I gone. I restored the level to 1.025 gradually. Have not used any vitamins, antibiotics, or other additives other than K, Mg, and St. K stays about 380 or so.
Howard
<Interesting... the term to describe this appearance is "ascites", or a more descriptive one I like: "Pine cone disease"... various causes of... fluid buildup/pressure behind scales causing them to lift... but would not treat for or do something other than what you're doing... the high spg may have triggered it.... should pass. Bob Fenner in Singapore.>

Ich on Neon Gobies
Good Afternoon, I have a simple question regarding two of my neon's. Do neon's clean other neon's or will a cleaner shrimp.
<More likely a cleaner shrimp will do the job, though Gobiosoma gobies do clean each other... have seen this in the wild and in captivity... though these gobiid species can be quite territorial in aquariums.>
The reason I' am asking is that they both have ich, but my Foxface knows to go to the cleaner shrimp when needed. No one has been able to give me a straight forward answer. I have tried to get the neon's out but with the porous live rock it is almost impossible.
<Agreed... best to "bite the bullet", remove all but the substrate, lower water level to remove them if necessary.>
The Foxface seems fine. I have always had success with fish and cleaners. But I have never experienced this problem. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. If anyone can answer this I know you can. I have a 55 gallon reef system with a mandarin, Foxface, shrimp, crabs, etc.. Environmentally the tank is sound. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Take care my friend. By the way you have written some amazing books. I enjoy reading them. Thanks Ryan H.
<Thank you my friend. Please read over the WetWebMedia.com site re other approaches to controlling, eliminating ich and other marine parasites. Bob Fenner>

Re: ich problems
Hi Bob,
Just an update. It's been a week since I began copper treatment in my quarantine tank. The tang looks a lot better, but we lost the goby yesterday. 
<Gobies don't like being moved, copper...>
Amm, Nitrite/trate, was 0, and copper was 0.25 (test kit literature recommend 2ppm!!!).
<You may have the "wrong" test kit... are you using a chelated copper product? Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/coppertestfaqs.htm>
We are sad and very surprised, since he looked really good, was eating and getting FAT, but I guess the prolonged copper exposure did him in. As for the main tank, since it's been fallow for several weeks, the 'pod population has exploded. I've also noticed something I was hoping you could ID. It's about 1/4" long, translucent pink with a small red dot in it's "head". It's shaped like an egg sliced in half, with a tale (square with a V-notch). It swims pretty fast. Any ideas? 
<A copepod (of thousands) species of some sort. Bob Fenner>
Thanks,
Khoi

SOS (more ich)
Bob,
Man my show emperor's secondary infections from ich has gotten worse. I added about 7 cleaner gobies. They were all cleaning him well. And at one point he look like he was winning the battle. But now the table has turned against him. Anyhow My Emp. was the ONLY fish in the infected 240 gallon tank. I scooped him out. He's in one of my 50 gal. quarantine tank. I have 2 in the garage up and running in case of emergency situations.
<How nice>
Now since the cleaner gobies are the ONLY fish left in my 240. Can I do the "run the tank with no fish for a month"? Or do the gobies have to come out as well?
<You can try leaving the Gobiosoma in... but they can/do act as vectors. Bob Fenner>
Thanks,
Linstun

Treatment for an Ailing Gobiosoma
Hello (I assume to JasonC)
<<JasonC, hello to you...>>
I mailed awhile back about my neon goby having been stressed out and breaking out in ich. He did better for a few days, and I thought he was on the mend. Then our power went out again!! <<that is unfortunate.>>
He looks worse. I am afraid of my other fish contracting Ich. <<may also be stress from the dark time.>> My question is two-fold.
1) Will he be the only one infected because he is weaker and more frightened? <<one would hope so, but if this is a genuine parasite, then you have many and not one, so in time, everyone will become infected. >>
2) I have a bad feeling that if I move him he might die. <<and this is a good assumption at this point>> Is it okay for him to recover in the tank without harm coming to my other fish? <<well, you probably know from one of my previous answers that he may unintentionally infect his neighbors.>>
He did eat this morning but swam back to his hiding spot. Any advice?? <<I always like eating as a sign. It's not a guarantee, but it's better than some of the alternatives.>> - If anything I am in desperate need of reassurance at this point. I hope you can help! :)
Thanks for your time! It means a lot to me.
Josie
<<well then, hold tight and just let things happen. Neon gobies are surprisingly tough for their small size - I'm a huge fan of them, they're neat. If you haven't already, you should read up on Bob's thoughts about the Gobiosoma: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/neongobies.htm - Cheers, J -- >>

Neon Goby Under the Weather
JasonC,
I hate to be a bother to you! Especially when you are taking over so much of Bob's work! Your advice in your reply to me brought up some more questions. Perhaps you could help. Please know there is no rush in getting back to me. <<then you will forgive me for taking so long to get back to you...>>
My Goby looked worse last night. I set up a fresh water dip with Kent Rx-P (doubt it was the best choice but I had to do something) He took that well and I was able to net him in one try which is a amazing feat. :) <<good stuff>>
This morning he still looks bad (still eating). <<thumbs up!>> I do not know what ich looks like (only drawings like the one in TCMA) If I explain it could you give a tentative answer if you agree to the diagnosis of ich? <<will try>>
He has whit spots on his fins and upper parts of his body. They look like raised bumps on this flesh. Also it appears like smears of white on his belly that slough off in tags. <<sounds ick-ish. I do have a neon goby down-cellar who is suffering much like yours. I bought him a cleaner shrimp. That seemed to work best - no treatments, no dips. But again, if you read that link, then you know what Bob thinks and certainly something I've observed: neon gobies are much tougher that their tiny selves might indicate. I'm sure yours will pull through. Give it some time - week or two. Should be easy if it's eating.>> 
If I keep him in the tank and it is ich how long could it take for the other fish to show signs? <<days - weeks, not way to know>> If you do believe it is ich (or will diffidently cause harm to my other fish <yellow tang, green Chromis, false clowns>) I will pull him out as well as the other in my QT and let the system go fallow until the new year. <<too late. Not to scare you, but the spots that people use to describe ick are more like scabs - a sign that the parasite has been there.>>
Thank you for the much needed help! You are doing an excellent job!!
Josie
<<Very nice of you to say so, thank you. Cheers, J -- >>

Neon Goby Update
Mr. Fenner,
I am writing to give you an update about my Neon Goby. I doubt you can remember ( it was six weeks ago) but you gave me some much needed advice about an outbreak of Ich. With your help and that of JasonC (he talked me through quarantining while you were away) my Goby "James" is looking wonderful!
<Good to read>
He has gotten big (I spoiled him with Selcon soaked food while he was being treated) and is so much more active then I can ever remember. He is back to cleaning his two clown take mates. I have added 2 cleaner shrimp to help keep him in shape.
<Okay>
I just wanted to thank you and JasonC for all of your help and support. We (the fish and I) are very grateful.
<Will send your note to him as well. Be chatting. Bob Fenner>
Josie

Re: Neon Goby Update
What great news to start the day with. Good stuff.
Cheers,
J --
<Ah, yes. Bob F>

Neon Update
JasonC,
<<Hello>>
Just thought I would drop you a line and give you an update about my icky Neon Goby. He looks 85% better today. He was looking good yesterday but today he swam around much more and I could only see a few spots on him. He even cleaned my green Chromis! :)
I just want to thank you again for all of your help and advice. It helped a great deal!
Josie
<<Ahh... glad to hear this. Am glad I could be of service. Cheers, J -- >>

Attacking Ich!
Hello Ladies and Gentlemen of the WWM Crew,
Who do I have the honor of chatting with this morning?
<Scott F.- honored to be with YOU!>
The crazy seahorse lady here who has extended her addiction to Puffers.....Egads what's next?
<Breeding pygmy angelfish, soft corals, stony corals, non-photosynthetic gorgonians...no stopping here!>
I am curious about cleaner goby behavior. I have a little story before my questions......
I have a wild caught Gobiosoma randalli. I have been battling ich in a FOWLR tank for quite a while now. The 2 Dogface Puffers clear up for a couple of days and show symptoms again, on and off for 5 to 6 weeks. I tried everything that has been recommended........a specific gravity of 1.010 and a temp of 83,  garlic laced foods,  pepper based solutions  and Kick ich. They all seemed to help but not for long. I refused to go the copper route.  I was at my wits end. Out of desperation one day I decided to do something most would consider rather drastic. I removed all the substrate. I siphoned it out during a water change. I added a few large pieces of cured LR to  off set the loss of the bio filter I removed with the sand. The water quality has remained stable, without any spikes. The hyposalinity, elevated temp, removal of the substrate, running a UV 24/7, diatomaceous filtration 4 to 8 hours every few days, the addition of a cleaner goby, and daily FW dips for 30 min, which btw they loved they even ate in there had the most impact. My fish are finally free of any  signs of ich for about 2 weeks now.
<There is a very good basis for what you did. Without going into a lot of detail here, it is theoretically possible to eliminate ich in a bare tank with nothing but massive daily water changes, siphoning from the bottom of the tank. The thought process here is that the ich "cysts" can be siphoned out of the tank as they enter their free swimming phase, and never get a chance to re-infect the fishes...It's not entirely that simple, but there is some merit to the idea...>
I am nervous though, because the cleaner goby still spends time on the puffers. It is really pretty amazing to watch and  certainly a very interesting interaction.  I got a few really good photographs, should you be interested in posting any. The goby lays on top of these 2 big fat fish (well big and fat by comparison) and just picks or nibbles. The Puffers become almost motionless and just quietly hover in the water, absolutely still, almost like they are in a trance. The goby occasionally burrows inside the gill opening. 1/2 of his little body disappears and it looks like he is going to get lost in there. The Puffers do not appear to be bothered by the cleaner at all, as a matter of fact they look like they are enjoying it.
<amazing behaviour to watch!>
Do these little cleaners pick at more than parasites? What other parasite will they consume?
<I couldn't give you an exact run down, to be quite honest, but let's assume that they could consume whatever parasites they could fit into their mouths...>
Should I assume I still have a problem in my tank. There are a couple of other small fish who never showed any signs of ich and the cleaner never goes near them. So I am curious if they only clean infested/infected fish?
<Tough call here. Even though your radical idea is effective at reducing ich, I'd have to say that the "infestation" is still in your system. The cysts can be in the rock, and lots of other possible "hiding places", if you've removed the substrate. I really think that the most effective simple technique for reliably reducing the parasite count is to leave the tank "fallow", without fishes, for a month or so, as the parasite population will crash for want of hosts. Not 100% perfect, but very, very effective!>
Is the diatom filter effective in removing any other pathogens, besides the free swimming stage of ich?
<Well- "pathogens" is a pretty broad description...Let's just say that it can do an effective job of eliminating the tomonts after they leave the fish and settle on the substrate, if you siphon from there>
How long do you think I should wait before adding new substrate? I am planning on using one of the commercially available bio active sands...like Natures Ocean.
<All depends on when you feel a "cure" has been achieved...One month, two months...really hard to predict, unfortunately>
Do you have any idea if the old sand could safely ever be reused? I rinsed in for a long time in FW, until the water ran clean and clear. Then I laid it thinly spread out on cookie sheets to dry in the sun.   
<Some people would even go so far as to bleach it, put it in a tank with chlorine remover, change water, and filter with PolyFilters, etc...If it were me- I'd treat it like toxic waste for some time! Certainly a wasteful thing to do, I know- but, as you are aware- once you've been through an ich battle, you'll do just about anything to avoid having it happen again!>
Thanks so much for your time and help, Leslie
<And thanks to you Leslie- for stopping by! Good luck with your treatment efforts!>

Grim Holidays battling ICH
Bob,
Thanks for the getting us in the right direction, we have lowered the main to 1.018 spg at 84 degrees per your recommendation.  Looks like the fish in QT are getting better by the day, especially the yellow tang which has no more white dots.  I guess almost everyone has to learn quarantining of new livestock the hard way. But I do have a couple more questions.  We are planning to get a cleaner for the tank (once we are back in order).  We were leaning to getting a neon goby, since the cleaner wrasses are best left in the wild.  Will a good sized (1.5" and above) neon goby survive with a 2.5" Dwarf lion "inhale" habits?
<I give you good odds (more than 80%) here. Most fishes, even those from areas where these Gobies don't occur, recognize them as allies>
Cleaner shrimp I guess would be out of the question.  How about cleaner hogs?
<Only small ones... for a large system. I would stick with the Neon Goby choice>
Thanks for all your hard work all, Robert     
<You're welcome. Bob Fenner>

Neon Goby Post-QT
>Hi all,
>>Hello.
>I am hoping you can help me out.  I love your website and read it daily.  Anyway, I have a 30g reef tank with 20lbs live rock, 30lbs of sand, 2 cleaner shrimp, 9 turbo snails and about 20 blue legged hermit crabs.  All water parameters are perfect.  I had my fish wiped out a few months ago with ich!  I decided to set up a QT and put my new fish in there for a few weeks.  
>>Best move.
>Anyway, I let the tank go fallow for about 2 months then purchased my first new fish a neon goby.  It pretty much stuck to the bottom or the sides of the tank and would eat on a regular schedule for 3 weeks in the QT.  
>>I always prefer a full 30 days for quarantine.
>Last night I put him in the display tank and left the lights off all night.  I could see him exploring and resting on the live rock.  This morning when I turned my light on and fed the tank he started swimming erratically.  He's been doing this all morning.  Seems stressed.  
>>ONLY once you fed?  This is unusual.
>Just swimming up and down from top to bottom and almost bouncing around the tank.  IT's completely opposite from how he behaved the weeks in QT.  He really didn't eat when I tried to feed him.  Is this normal or should I be concerned.
>>You should be concerned, and may be better off removing him back to the QT ASAP until you can figure out what the problem may be.  My first thought is improper acclimation.  Make absolutely certain all parameters are well-matched, ESPECIALLY pH.
>Thanks for your help. Shannon
>>Much welcome, hope he recovers.  Marina

Laziness, Neon Goby dis.    4/12/06
Hey Crew thanks for all the help so far. I'm fixing to start up a 75 gallon SW tank i was wondering if neon gobies can get ick, because I was planning to get a blue hippo tang. Also what would you suggest for some companions with the tang and gobies?
       Thanks for all the help!!!!!!!
<Can, read on WWM. Bob Fenner>