Going Big Time in the coral reef organism supply biz 
G-Day Bob 
My name is Chad Peters from The Reef Keeper. I have been in business for about 9 years. I have bought from everyone out their some of the best stuff came from Walt's place without any question of course. I have recently moved to Florida from Boston. I am in the process of setting up a outdoor greenhouse well actually it will look more like vats sitting out side no real greenhouse. Screened in not really covered. I have allot of connections all over the world Solomon's Bali, Jakarta, Indo, Fiji, Tonga, Marshals etc. I also know allot of people here in the U.S. Well let me get to the point. I am contacting you because I see you help allot of people with business relations. Joe Steble from? Brian from Holiday coral, Golden Ina and Wave Rider in LA. All get the best Indo. propagated coral and Vietnam Clams out their do you know where their getting them from? 
<Some of their sources I am familiar with, yes> 
also would it be in my best interest importing directly myself or working with someone else. that I have mentioned? 
<Really depends principally on three factors... principally on whether you can justify the volume in terms of what you can handle, sell in a period of time... buying direct calls for large volumes (dozens of boxes, hundreds to thousands of organisms/pieces in a shipment... and Your knowledge, facilities and tolerance for dealing with troubles... CITES, Customs, the Airlines... MOST folks are much better off NOT buying direct from collectors, culturists... from the ultimate sources... too much hassle, too many organisms for them to handle, sell, lose> 
Holiday is very expensive I did get nice stuff though. I will be selling as a wholesaler in south Florida so price is important. I also have allot of stores in the Northeast also. Allot will be shipped too. Thanks for your time will be waiting to here from you. 
Thanks 
Chad  The Reef Keeper 
<I would think this move over very carefully... When you believe you are ready to try buying direct, re-contact me and I will help direct or re-direct you to someone who is honest and competent to try an order. Bob Fenner>

Re: Going Big Time in the coral reef organism supply biz 
Hey Bob Thanks for the quick reply. I am serious about an order in about a month set up isn't complete. I would like to know who it is that is honest and good to deal with I probably have every supplier out their I just need to be redirected as you could probably imagine I have about 50-60 suppliers across the globe. The one I'm looking for is probably sitting right under my nose?  Thanks again 
<Maybe... though everyone has to order from a few suppliers... please understand me re advising you in these matters... I must need be SURE that you are also a credible player... You have how many gallons to your set-up? It is subdivided into how many sub-units... for inverts, fishes, individual shipments? Bob Fenner>

Re: Steve Robinson... One of many dissatisfied experiences...
You might want to ask Steve Robinson when he plans to pay his Asian fish suppliers the tens of thousands of dollars that he has owed them for years. There is a question of continued bankruptcies and letters of non payment. Is this something that might cause concern? I guess it depends on what you really care about.
<... you might try addressing Steve directly re... I am not aware of where he is, what he's up to presently. Bob Fenner> 

Importing Marine Fish 2/15/05
Hi Anthony
<cheers>
Thanks for your previous emails......I need to ask you if you have ever heard of ( good or bad) of a company called Aquatlantic in Brazil.........
<I have no experience with them... seem to recall they may be one of those folks that e-mail heavily to solicit new biz>
Just to update you since our last correspondence ( attached ), that I have been importing weekly from various countries, and selling mainly to 2 wholesalers, as I have 1 of the 2 valid import licenses here in Indonesia....Trade has been good, and revenues of over 20k US$ per month, at a healthy profit. I am ready to open my new store now, where the emphasis will be on imported rather than local fish and equipment.
<do know that your long term survival in the industry may depend on dry goods... livestock alone is a very hard and volatile business to depend on alone>
Hope you can help, as I am expecting a shipment in 3 days, and no-one has answered their phone in the last week. Only a small trial order of 1500 bucks. JD
<alas, no my friend... no experience with these chaps. Have you "Googled" them? Anthony>

Just to let you know!! Re: Songnam co in Vietnam
Bob
Just to let you know, Songnam co in Vietnam are crooks!!
They took $2000.00 from me and sent dead or dying clams to me(200) and promised to replace them!! I have been getting emails for 4 months now with excuses!! I don't recommend you tell others about them!!
Mike Phalen
Aqua-Direct
<Thank you much for this Mike... As you likely or will know I am a BIG fan of stamping out crooked practices, people in our trade. Bob Fenner> 

Songnam... another data point... Crooks and/or Incompetents
Bob
You might want to take these guys off your list here!! They do not have a clue about collecting or shipping and sent me $2000 of dead clams!! They rip the clams from the rocks and they die!! I would not recommend them to anyone!!
Mike
Aqua-Direct
Giant clam source
Dear Sir/Madam,
<Hello to you>
We are from SongNam Co., LTD in Vietnam. Our company specializes in supplying kinds of Tridacna, Crocea, Maxima, Squamosa..that have two main colors :green& blue. Besides we have a lot of Marine Fishes, Soft Corals anemone, live rock, sea-star &trifling-coral-Trifling-coralish used to filter water in tank At present We have a large farm to be located in a Island. We can supply them with the large quantity, beautiful color &strong. If you need to buy them, please contact us by mail: info@songnamco.com
Best wishes to you
<Thank you for your note. Will share, post on WetWebMedia.com. Bob Fenner>
Huy Khanh
<Thank you for this Mike... will accrue. BobF> 

Summat about possible thievery, opinions, the Net   4/4/06
BOB,
   <MICHAEL>
  This Is Mike Phalen from Aqua-Direct!! You should have gotten all the facts before you decided to place this info that's is below my message on the internet for the world to see!!
<... "It's the Net Mike">
In regards to allegations from Peter Savona this has been in court for 18 months now and Peter has shown the courts no proof whatsoever and has violated court orders about the proof!! He is notorious for frivolous lawsuits and has never really won a case yet!! He is not the guy he claims to be and quite frankly it is him trying to screw his partner and if you ask Walt he will verify Peter's behavior!!
  In response for your posting ,I now have no choice but include you in the case of Libel and Slander that will be in the courts real soon due to his posting of my picture on his website!! Not a very bright person!! You seem like a very intelligent guy so why would you not have wanted to hear my side of the story   first!!! I will be in further contact with you soon!!
<... please send along "your side of the story"... will gladly post. Bob Fenner>  
  Hi From Fiji
Dear Mr. Fenner,
Thank you for your kind words and support, and for such a prompt reply, sometimes I get the feeling of an orphan!.
I am originally from Malta, in the Mediterranean, I have been keeping freshies since I was 10, and when I migrated
to Australia I got seriously into marines, it was actually a spear fishing accident, I shot a small bottom dwelling shark
and when I started to clean it up, 10 pups with egg sacs popped out, so I quickly tired to setup a tank, of course not
knowing anything about nitrifiers etc, LOL, from there, to trickle filters coral and so on.
<Ahhh, a quintessential experience>
Somehow some years later, by which time I was a telephone linesman by trade, I landed a job as an aquarist at the
Underwaterworld at Manly's in Sydney, I was lucky to have a Boss that was a walking encyclopedia, Chris Warner,
and I learnt so much stuff from him, about a year later I also worked under him again at the Mooloolaba Underwaterworld
in Queensland for another 6 months, an even more interesting setup.
<Another fortunate series of incidents>
Since 1990 I got involved with Waterlife Exporters (Fiji) Ltd, becoming the second eldest company in our industry in Fiji,
the first is Tony Nahacky of Aquarium Fish, another extremely knowledgeable man, with incredible diving and collecting
ability, I then resided in Fiji permanently since 1992, and now am the principal owner of Waterlife.
<Tony is indeed an amazing individual, and a tremendous asset to the trade>
I'll be honest I came here to catch fish, but since Ocean 2000/SDC and WSI, it became necessary to export Live rock and
Coral or simply not survive, there was also the Segrest's for some time with Tropical Fish (Fiji) Ltd which went out of business,
their Pilipino divers did terrible damage to our fishing area, fortunately the reef has incredible ability to recover.
<Am familiar with these folks, troubles... am surprised you and I have yet to meet>
For some time I depended solely on live rock and dealt with a Mike Phalen, of Aqua Direct, he is what I think they call
a "jobber", ( I don't know if that is  a good or bad term in the USA, so forgive my ignorance), i.e. he has no facility etc.
Unfortunately he still owes us US$34,000.00, this nearly wiped me out, but somehow we survived.
<I... will make inquiries re this... It is my desire that the trade be rigorous in its dealings... and I do not condone thievery>
We have a 7000 sq foot building with three separate systems, fish coral and live rock, and we used to ship 4.5 tonnes
of live rock into LA for 4 or 5 years, and not to boast were told it was the best rock around, now unfortunately the price
war with my big competitors is so ferocious, and they have counterpart facility's in LA that support them, I don't, and
still have to freelance for buyers, and after being bitten three times in the US, I now require pre payment, and I can't get a
foot into LA!!.
<I am a huge fan of Fiji rock (and Fijians)... as you will find from my writings. And I can see from your website that you employ similar excellent practices in your dealings with local people, techniques of cleaning, curing. The LR product from Fiji is largely responsible for the growth, size of the hobby worldwide...>
I'm sure you must also know how complicated life has become for us with CITES, and the new quota system, between
you and I, it is really arbitrary, and it is really hurting.
<I agree... had a short conversation with Dieter Brockmann vis a vis Kirby's involvement in a writing project and the "evolution" of this bit of "law"... unserving to anyone>
The only consolation I have is that I brought in a consultant from
Australia 3 weeks ago, his name is Paul Hough, I think he has Dr in front, he was responsible for the Great barrier
Reef Aquarium in Townsville, and he also agrees that CITES is being rather heavy handed .
<We might start a club...>
We are kind of struggling a bit, I have been trying to sent up an ocean based coral farm, we have already spent around
US$15,000.00 on it, but somebody tried sabotage it, ( you guessed it, a competitor), it is a pity really because it is for
better sustainability, and a good education tool, specially since we are located in Suva, the capital. we will try to get it
going again once finances permit. Although I know that propagation is a buzz word, but I really am interested in it. I am
actively looking around for funding, and yes if you happen to know anybody or organization to apply to please let me know,
I do need the help, and would be thankful for any advice.
<Kudos to you and your company for seeing into the future>
If you do happen to come to Fiji, please do let me know, it would be wonderful to meet you,
Thanks again
Peter
www.waterlifefiji.com
<Will do indeed. Thank you for sharing your insights, experiences. I look forward to our meeting and chatting further. Bob Fenner>

Less veiled threats, no more facts  - 04/05/2006
BOB
   <Mike...>
  Not for nothing but is this all you can say about this!! Yes it is the NET as you put it but there are laws about what you can put up on it !!!
<Mike... what is it, factually... that you object to. I don't know you or the other person who sent in the original... Is it my stmt. re Tony Nahacky? I am not judging you or anyone... or identifying the stmt.s made by others as being truthful...>
I am not going to send you my side as you put because I explained that in the email about what he has done and I will not slander him in reply in order to play his immature game!!
<Okay... but this isn't useful data either. "Who said what, when...">
That would be the same thing he did !!  You need to ask your web designer about internet posting laws!!!
<Am not interested... have been about in the trade, self-employment, the Net long enough to know what needs to be known...>
  I am 49 years old and have been an aquarist/ aquarium curator/designer/ hobbyist for over 30 years and had one of the first reef systems in the USA many years ago!!
<"I am 53 and have been at this for more than forty...">
  Ask anyone in LA and although they might say I am tough to deal with, I am 100% honest but my NY Italian  upbringing  gives me the " No nonsense attitude" which is why I am doing well but have been burnt a few times myself!!
<I say "right on" to this information and attitude. I likewise have always dealt with people honestly, fairly and consistently. Not easy to do in our trade as am very sure you and I will agree>
This business has gotten way out of hand!!! "!!  You need to remove that right away and I will let it go but if not I have no choice!!  
<... am not sensitive to veiled threats... >
Regards
  Mike Phalen
<I don't remove material/s from our site w/o "good" cause... What is your gripe Mike? Specifically. Bob Fenner>

Ongoing: The trade, reality, the Net - 04/05/2006
Bob
   <... Mike>
  I am having a difficult time believing that you don't understand or if it is really you responding to this!! Maybe we need to talk about this on the phone!!
<No thanks>
  You don't seem to understand that you posted a slanderous accusation from Peter Savona on your website!!
<... we post most all... If I/we don't make the slander... please refer to people who have>
My threats are not veiled as you put it!! Do you not understand that is against the law both internet wise and legally not allowed? Is that really hard for you to see!! I don't have to really explain it further to you as you feel I have to!!  You have a slanderous item that needs to be removed, if you don't do it as you put it  that you won't then you will be held responsible!! You need to ask a lawyer about this so it doesn't go any further and some of your responses are very childlike and I am beginning to think it is not really you responding to this as the answers are very short!!   You are not allowed to just put whatever you want on the internet!! Do you not see how this attacks my character and good name along with my business?
<Mike... address the facts please. If you feel you have been slandered... please show me where. So and so states something about so and so... if it's not factual, I/we will gladly post a rebuttal. I am not "taking sides", saying you/he/anyone is at fault. I simply don't know>
  Or are you trying to help Walt too?
<...?>
He is constantly running his mouth about me to the wholesalers in Los Angeles with out any provocation whatsoever!!!
<Facts please... not hearsay>
Only because I stopped him and Tim from trying to screw a exporter there who barely has $$ to survive each week!! I was there when it happened in Fiji so I know it first hand!!!
<Will cc Walt Smith here re>
  I am the one who put an end to it and will do so to anyone else that feels that its a common practice in this business to make others suffer!!  There are way too many thieves that are allowed to practice in this business unnoticed or allowed to change their company name and do it again to others!!!
<Bingo! You state the reason/s for my putting in the resources for reproducing others input here>
I am in the process of putting something out along with a black list with proof of ill dealings!!!  As far as Peter is concerned ,I will say this !! I have proven 3 times to him that I don't owe him money and according to his site and the way I paid him why would he allow me to owe him for 2-3 shipments!! makes no sense to anyone!!!!
<Do you really want to discuss this? I can relate many such "multiple transactions" where folks have stolen, continue to steal from people in our trade... sad but so>
I am not trying to make any enemy's in this business, you included, so why not be fair to me!! I will say no more because I don't know if you might actually be questioning me for Peter's sake
<Not for anyone's particular "sake", but alls>
and I would appreciate you being a little more humble in your responses please!! If you review the last email you will see the 1-2 word responses seem like your
trying to outdo me for some reason!!
<Also not interested>
Anyway I would appreciate very highly if you can remove that info from your website within 7 days ,it serves no purpose but to hurt me and help Peter!! I can't allow that for business purposes which I am sure you understand!!
  Respect me as I respect you!!
<Please send along a/your definition of "respect"... your threats are less bilious as time goes on, but still...>
     Regards
  Mike Phalen   
  Ps Why was the response from crew and not your email?
<... Don't know. Found it here? Mike, unless you have something substantive to state, please don't write me. Bob Fenner>

Banyu Biru in Indo.  7/10/06
Bob,
  <Barry>
  I am the owner of Kahuna Corals and I was lucky enough to meet you at me store in Renton Washington and here you speak about Algae for a talk you gave to the Puget Sound Aquarium Society.  
   <Ah, I recall>
  I am looking into ordering direct from a exporter in Indonesia.  Currently I am considering doing business with a supplier named Banyu Biru and I did not know if you had heard anything about this company good or bad.  The exporters require you to send payment before they ship and the last thing I want to do is send a couple thousand dollars to Indonesia and get nothing in exchange.  
   <Mmm, am not aware of this outfit directly or otherwise... but share your concern, caution. Is your volume of business "sufficient" to warrant such dealings? You might well be better off going with a knowable quality in the way of a transshipper... Bob Fenner>
  Thank you in advance for your time.   
  Best Wishes,
       Barry Katz

Re: Banyu Biru in Indo.  7/10/06
Bob,
<Bar>  
  I don't know how much volume I will do.
<Mmm... there are definite "margins as function of volume" to consider here... Customs, air-freight, CITES permits... and much more are cheaper by far in greater/larger shipments/dealings>
I will be the first to admit that my shop is a hole in the wall, but contacting an exporter is related to my plans of shortly moving into a larger nicer retail storefront on a busy street.  I believe I can move the volume required especially since live rock can be put towards the minimum.     
  Also ordering direct will give me the pricing I need to compete on price as well as quality.
<Mmm... no, not necessarily so. The "becoming ones own wholesaler/importer" versus dealing through others... not what it is all cracked up to be... believe me. Delayed flights, large percentages of DOAs, systems filled up with unsaleable animals... and as you stated, little to no avenue for redress... You can read my further opinions here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/AqBizSubWebIndex/bizlvstkfaqs.htm
and the FAQs files in this series linked above>
  If you know of any exporters you can recommend especially in Fiji I would be very grateful.   
  Much Thanks,
       Barry Katz
<I cannot emphasize this enough... Until you are really READY to take a full container (LD3)... forty or more boxes, do NOT embark on this possibly crippling practice. I do encourage you to contact Dave Palmer at Pacific Aqua Farms (near LAX) re transshipping five or ten boxes... this is a LOT of animals... may cost a couple of thousand dollars en toto... but is the best route for you to go presently. "Walk before you run"... I speak from painful and not self-experience. Bob Fenner>

Pre-paying for intl. livestock... Don't  - 09/02/06
<... Thank you for sending this note along. Will post with the original on WWM... A note to all re such transactions DO NOT send funds ahead of shipment to any company you're not familiar with. Unfortunately there are crooks and incompetents in the ornamental fish trade... Some long-time established... Bob Fenner>
Murray,
Sorry to hear of your troubles with this company. Can you tell me where on our website the link or reference to this company is? We will gladly remove any bogus companies from our website.
Sincerely,
Mike Kaechele
mike@wetwebmedia.com
www.WetWebMedia.com
Hi Mike -
     Several months ago I visited WetWebMedia and found a listing for an export company in Brazil.  I e-mailed the company, received a price list, and then sent payment to them through Western Union.  I am attaching the e-mail that I received from them after my payment was received.  Unfortunately, I never received any fish, nor did I receive a refund.  I believe now that this company is a sham, and I would be gratified if you explained this on your website which still  includes information about this bogus enterprise, R.L.C. Export & Import.
Orig. email
Thank you,
<Seems odd they would take the time to write if they were stealing...>
Murray Meeker
Subject: payment arrival
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 17:46:14 -0300
Dear Murray;
How are you ? hope fine.
Finally i received your payment; Many thanks for this.
I already started to clear the paperwork and paid the taxes and imposts.
Soonest i have news i will contact you back.
Best regards;
Leandro

West Nigeria/NYC Fish Source   8/1/06
Dear Sir / Madame,
We {CYNDI  TROPICALS PLC} are export different types of tropical live fish (freshwater fish ) from the  west Africa Nigeria..
We'll be glad if your company, could give us trial.
chance to supply our tropical live fish please just try us and u will gain it.
our price list is available for any importer that is interested to buy.
Hope to hear from u urgent.
best Regard
Uche
234-8058-239904
tropical_fishsupply@nyc.com
<Will post, share your note. A note to browsers to take care when dealing with countries outside the U.S.. Bob Fenner>

Lombardo's
Hello there, In doing some research, with regard to operating a breeding/aquaculture facility here in the New England area I recall being made aware of a wholesaler in the NYC area .....Lombardo's. Can anyone help me in finding there info or contacting them. I am hitting a brick wall for some reason no matter which avenue I drive down.
<they have changed their name at least once as I recall... and their reputation precedes them in many places. Do consider if that means anything to you. Try looking under "Metro Pet". Best regards, Anthony>

A question concerning ethical wholesalers
Dear crew,
<Hi there>
thanks for all of your support over the years. I have become so successful at keeping SPS etc., I am launching my own internet based business! And yes, I will be contacting you guys to place a banner on your site shortly (working on the site now).
<Yay!>
I wanted to ask what wholesalers Calfo and Fenner would recommend, I don't want to use a wholesaler that condones unethical collection practices. I am considering the following (whoever I use I need access to quality SPS)- The first two are my topic picks
<Okay>
Pacific Aqua Farms
Underwater world
Golden Ina
Sea Dwelling Creatures
Quality Marine
ERI
<Most likely... are PAF, UWW, SDC and Quality... are honest and competently run. Don't know the folks at Golden well, and ERI, eh, you can check their reputation elsewhere.>
Thanks, I appreciate any recommendations you can make!
Tom
<Anthony's out of town, touch for a few days, but will put your query in his in-box for response later. Bob Fenner>

A question concerning ethical wholesalers II
Anthony, thanks a million for your reply (and Bob's too).
<always welcome, my friend>
I did check with Aqua Marine, unfortunately I may be locked out because of exclusivity in Richmond, even though I wont be retailing locally, just on the net. Do you perhaps know of anyone else that performs a similar function?
<indeed... do consult the online yellow pages... seek an established aquarium service professional... these chaps often do fish-picking too and they are at the wholesalers weekly for their own biz usually. Going rate is about 10% of the total order cost. An extra $100 on a $1,000 order is well worth it when you see the quality of livestock picked by your trained professional rather than the random items picked by minimum wage workers>
Its a shame because I am looking for precisely what they have.
Thanks again, Tom
<no worries... best of luck. Anthony>

Re: A question concerning ethical wholesalers
Anthony and Bob thanks a million for the help:
I am not trying to be a pain in the @#$ (  :), I was wondering if Bob might have any recommendations as well on suppliers or pickers that I can trust. I am looking for rare colorful SPS, ricos, zoos, clams, inverts etc. (but not so rare they shouldn't be collected!!!!) out of the usual Bali, Tonga, Hawaii, but also looking for Vanuatu, Japan, Micronesia, etc.  (looking to establish online presence with high volume (of course) and a long term relationship with a supplier preferably, but a jobber or picker would work as well).
Unfortunately due to an exclusivity agreement with a LFS, Aqua Marine can't sell to me (RATS!!) I don't mind paying a little more as long as I know I will quality (as Anthony suggested!). I noticed in some of the prior correspondences with other WWM users that you would BCC various individuals in the biz and would like to ask if you don't mind, if you could for me.  
Once again thanks!! I will be sponsoring your page as soon as I get a site here (in the next two weeks, all I am missing is stock), and will include a link to your site if you don't mind as you guys are priceless to this hobby.
Tom
<Tom, I will ask around next time I am in L.A.. Unfortunately I don't know well-enough any of the selection services/personnel to give them an endorsement of sorts. Do you know of folks outside your retail area that you might ask who they use? Lastly, I might ask the same key question very-openly on the bulletin boards/Net... like Reefs.org and see who you hear about. Lastly, knowing what little I do, I would trust the "general services" of Quality Marine, Sea Dwelling Creatures and Pacific Aquafarms... Bob Fenner>