For Bob....CITES ? 5/6/08
Hi Bob, Drew here, I just had a quick question concerning this document
http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/files/citesusfws_129.pdf
<I see it>
And also what your take on it affecting our hobby will be?
<Negligible. The countries listed barely ship to the West, or anywhere... Chip Boyle in Roratonga (Cooks), and Walt Smiths operations in Tonga are likely the only persons I know who will be mal-affected>
Is this a temporary thing or more permanent?
<Don't know... but I doubt it will be permanent>
I have also heard through the rumor mill that is flying that Walt Smith has released 80% of his staff as a result of this. Like i said I guess I just wanted your opinion on the matter.
Thanks,
Drew Lawing
<Thanks for bringing this to my/our attention. CITES is a worthwhile convention (IMO of course), and folks have just got to comply... Bob Fenner>

Pet business questions  3/9/08
Hi to All,
<Alfred>
I am presently opening a 1800 square foot aquarium store specializing in fish, plants, corals.
<Ahh! Congratulations!>
I have never actually worked in the business as a retailer but I have done some aquarium service.
<VERY different experiences...>
I have a good head for business and work does not scare me.
<Seven days a week... I do hope you have a hands-on equity partner, other good help...>
My question in short is How many dry good suppliers will you need to adequately stock a store.
<At least two good ones...>
I noticed that some have certain products which are limited and others carry a full line but the prices may not be as good.
<Yes>
I have made contact and opened accounts with Central Pet and Royal Pet. Could you please give a short list of the DG suppliers you feel would benefit a new store in the NY Westchester area.
<These two are good choices... I would "interview" others you can find through Pet-Business Buyer's Guide, the online resources of the APPMA...>
I read your article on live stock dealers being concentrated in the airports and such. And don't know how to go about establishing relationships with them.
<Contact them... via the Net, the phone... best, if at all practical, in person...>
I have been getting stock lists from HIFI-Marindo, their prices seem very good, and wondered if you have any experience or insight in doing business with them.
<None to share carte blanche on the Net, with someone I don't know...>
I have taken your advice and subscribed to all of the possible trade magazines and am currently waiting for them to begin arriving.
<Ahh, good! Not much directly of use in any given issue... but with a discerning mind, reading betwixt the lines... much can be gleaned>
Outside of designing the store layout and negotiating the commercial lease; I feel getting the best prices for my end of the products and livestock is ultimately paramount to my success.
<And that partner, and employees?>
All Help is appreciated.
P.S. If one of these topics was already discussed in detail don't bother answering the question just direct me to the discussion. I must have missed it and do apologize for being redundant.
<No worries. Bob Fenner>
Alfred Idone
Allstar Aquarium LLC
Thinking about an Aquarium for your Home or Office ? Looking for Aquarium Service or
Products at Discount Prices ? Take a Look at my Web-Site :
www.allstaraquarium.com

Customs Broker at LAX for Import  3/2/08
I am looking for a broker who can clear 8 boxes of Discus fish from Malaysia for me who has some knowledge on how to get them through quickly. The value of the shipment will be no more than $2500.00 and once the shipment clears I will take them home. Do you know any business that can do this for a reasonable fee. I do have my own Import License and will renew it shortly since it expires in April.
Thank you
George Garcia
www.azdiscus.com
<Mmm... might be faster to have someone "piggyback" your order for you... in the trade, in the area... otherwise... I'd try Bill Flegenheimer... used their Customs Svc. at LAX many years ago... Bob Fenner>

Interested in Touring Asian Wholesalers.  11/13/07
Hi Guys,
<Rob>
I am a pilot living in Chicago that works for a major airline in Japan and I have recently started a reef tank. I have also become an admitted reef-a-holic.
<Happens...>
I travel to such cities/countries as Japan, Singapore, Bangkok, and Hong Kong. On my layovers, I am interested in touring ornamental collection facilities as an interested hobbyist. Could you guys steer me in the right direction of some collectors out there that I may be able to visit. Their emails or websites would be appreciated.
Thank you for your assistance.
Rob Culen
<I would use the "A" list of folks who are members of the OFI: http://www.ornamental-fish-int.org/
The green bar... "Membership"... you can search by country. I'd give them a call/email a week or so in advance, then one/two days ahead... Many places have "sorts of" tours... Most all folks in the trade are very accommodating. Cheers, Bob Fenner>

Miami transhipper... wanting to piggy-back livestock from the Far East...   7/27/07
I was wondering if y'all knew of a good Miami based transhipper who imports from Malaysia or Singapore?
<Yes... Dolphin International is the best here...>
Im having a heck of a time finding someone who is willing to deal with a 3rd party transshipment....
<Third party?>
which is understandable.
My shipments average only 40-70kg on average so it can be cost prohibitive to import such a small quantity,
<Ah yes... the economies of scale work against such puny volumes... the shipping, CITES, other paperwork... make it too expensive per unit...>
and I don't have the space or resources to import larger quantities. I currently pay $140 per box (14kg weight limit, no repack) through an LA based company, plus shipping to me in Orlando. But they only import from Singapore and I import mostly from Malaysia, so it is hard to transport fish from Malaysia into Singapore as it adds cost. I import about once a month and I'm wanting to lower my costs (and prices) for my customers. Biggest problem though is that going from Singapore to LAX, then onto MCO I have several DOA issues, which is why I'm wanting to find a Miami based transhipper as it is only a 1 hour flight to me from there. This greatly reduces turn around time and hopefully will solve my DOA issues due to less time in the bag. Im willing to pay the same if a Miami transhipper can import from Malaysia and get the fish to me faster. That alone is worth the money. Please let me know. Thanks
<Contact Steve Lundblad at their LA offices... Bob Fenner>
--
-Ryan
Orlando Discus

Introductions (well re-introductions), SW lvstk. importation biz.  – 06/07/07
Hi Bob,
<Aaron>
Not quite sure if you remember me but we met some time back in Sacramento for a convention there (really the name of the convention escapes as I think I was pretty drunk then!)
<Heeee!>
Anyway to refresh your memory we talking a while about collecting stories there in Hawaii whilst in the hospitality room standing over the Keg sucking down some strong blonde! Ah good times :-)
<Ah, yes.>
Anyway, the reason for my email. I have owned an import business for about 10 years now and have been bringing in fish directly from Africa ( mostly Tanganyikan fishes) so am a little familiar with importing freshwater fish but have not ever imported saltwater fish so I am a little at a disadvantage in trying to do this.
<Mmm, is in many ways similar... a few not so... Particularly the "singly bagged", fewer numbers, possibly much higher mortality...>
I have been in contact with my supplier in Tanzania about him possibly collecting salt on the eastern coastline. He has never done it before nor has he even kept saltwater fish before ( he is VERY green!) I have asked him to try with my guidance. We both decided that he could try to do a couple of fish at first to be sent with my freshwater fish as samples.
This way there shouldn't be too much risk involved. My problem is that I am unfamiliar with what species might occur from the area so any help you can give with regards to that would be great.
<Ahh! Do take a look at the fantastic Database: fishbase.org... You can sort by geographic region/country, and re-sort the species by family... Not very much commonly sold in our trade hails from this area, BUT there are some real lookers that might be caught, imported... Do have your collector contact me if I may be of service in suggesting collection methods, gear et al.>
On another note, I have a small facility set up with about a 2,000 gallon total saltwater system (both separate coral and fish). I do want to expand that another 1000 gallons on the coral side and add more live rock tanks as well an invert system. I know it isn't much gallon wise but want to try to start importing stuff from other places. I have tried getting stuff from SDC and PAF and have been quite happy with the product but I want to try to move more into the wholesale end of things here in the bay area.
<Can be done... more economically... but, as you will find (the same as w/  FW) there are inherent risks, costs to bringing in your own... and you will  need to "scale" up your operation/volume, holding facilities to "make sense"  of whole livestock containers... and resale of same>
I do have other clients currently that I sell my African fish to that are national and all have expressed an interest in getting fish from me since thy have been happy with the quality of the Africans I have been providing. Currently we have gotten some fish from my friend in Maui but that is all so far.
<Oh! Good practice>
I have spoken to some other sources in Indo but have not felt totally comfortable sending them a large order as I do not know them. I wonder if you would be willing in the future to help me out with some info/background into doing this. Thanks for any help.
<Yes my friend. I will help you. Cheers, Bob Fenner>
Aloha,
Aaron Kerrigan

Re: Introductions (well re-introductions), Whlse. marine lvstk. biz  – 06/08/07
Hi Bob,
Thanks for all the insightful info. I looked on Fishbase this evening to get an idea of what might be in that region. Mostly stuff I would expect from most of the other countries around there. I was hoping for more of the red sea type stuff.
<Unfortunately, no... The Red Sea (along with Hawai'i and the Sea of Cortez)
has the highest degree of endemism (about a quarter of near-shore/reef/shallow water species are ONLY found in these locales... that is, not found elsewhere>
I do see that there is some of that available though. Can you give me a idea of what sort of corals might be there or if they are even able to send the from there?
<Mmm, all sorts... all the major/principal stony and soft coral families, genera...>
Maybe there is an equivalent to fishbase for the coral as well?
<Unfortunately, not as yet... but there are:
http://cnidarian.info/data.cfm
http://hercules.kgs.ku.edu/hexacoral/anemone2/index.cfm
Which I use very often>
I did receive an order of about 15 boxes from Hawaii last night and all went pretty well. At least know I can house 15 boxes of fish if need be with the current system.
<Yes... but I hasten to add, the 50th State does pack very light... the livestock (coming from further away, so doesn't seem to make sense) will be about doubled per volume/boxes>
Can you give me an idea of what amount of gallons I would need to be a true player and to be able to handle a container?
<Mmm, about twice what you currently have... about 5k minimum if this was well-laid-out... including with a few hundred cubicles...>
How many boxes in a container anyway?
<Depends on the type of box (Coffins for HI for instance) and container...
for an LD3. Am so bleary this AM can't seem to recall... I think it's 48 coffins and 72 double styros...>
All The Best,
Aaron
<And to you. BobF>

Looking for importer   5/2/07
CONFIDENCE MARINE AQUATIC AFRICA <confidence_marine@yahoo.com>
We are one of  marine fish exporters located in West Africa. Our company established since 2006 with modeling. We specialize in marine fish, invertebrate, crab, shrimp, soft coral, anemone and live rock. We have been shipping to Japan, all part of U.S.A., Italy and China. We also guarantee our lowest price.
<Really... are you a member of the OFI?>   
  Our fishes in our farm come from various sea water through Ghana , such as  Kpone, Nungo, Keta, cape cost that are known to have many kinds of ornamental fish with all kinds of shapes and colors.
  customer satisfaction is our aim;   
  The quality of being certain of our   Abilities
<Will post your msg., email addr... But urge caution with anyone dealing with unknown suppliers. Do you have a website? Bob Fenner>

Wholesale, Transhipper question   3/21/07
Hello WWM Crew, I have a very general question regarding dealing with wholesalers and transhippers.
<Some slip and slide here twixt players...>
I am considering starting up a production facility for freshwater ornamentals in Hawaii. However, I am concerned with shipping costs to the mainland
<You are wise here>
and would like to know the potential advantages or disadvantages of dealing with wholesalers vs. transhippers.
I have seen some literature that suggests that direct marketing to retailers would be the best way to go. I was wondering if someone could shed a little light on this matter? It would be great to get some, "if I were in your shoes..." advice.  (Joe G.)
<I do wish there were some sort of clear-cut definitions to be proffered here... Or even a "this is better" position to take, point out... However, "wholesalers" may well do little for their margin... or worse, simply delay the starvation and stress of provided livestock... themselves barely buying and re-shipping the stock... In the "real world" (what is this anyway?), I would seek out and deal with "real players"... What I call "A" players in our trade (I am unabashedly one)... and forego any dealing with non "A" players... yourself always striving to be one... Perhaps a trip to the upcoming Aquarama show in Singapore would be the best money you've ever invested here... Steve Lundblad of Dolphin International is an "A" player... and the largest transhipper of FW livestock on the planet... Bob Fenner>

Wholesaler Recommendation 9/8/04
Hi, Could you direct me to some reputable wholesalers for saltwater livestock and drygoods? Thanks Kelly -Corals and More
<since any wholesaler is largely at the mercy of the variable nature of wild-caught organisms... its tough to say one is "best." They do not manufacture the fishes and corals they sell... and cannot assure which and what quality they will arrive in any given week. To the point... instead of looking for wholesalers, you should look for a professional "cherry picker" (AKA jobber) to select the best livestock from among the better wholesalers any given week for you. If you agree... do call Erik and Dennis Reynolds at Aqua Marines (www.am4fish.com). They are the oldest jobbers in LA... highly recommended by many folks, including me :). Aquarists looking to help their local shops and themselves in the process might pass this contact along. With kind regard to all, Anthony Calfo>

Local SF Bay area wholesalers    5/3/06
Hi Crew,
  I am currently ordering my stock from LA, I have accounts with SDC and Quality, but I would like to order locally if possible. I am only aware of Pan Ocean, but I'm suspecting there may be others. Any input would be greatly appreciated. keep up the great work!
  Regards,
  Alan
<Am not familiar with sources in your area "well enough" to direct you. Do you have current editions of industry "Buyer's Guides"? You can order such, e.g., Pet Business Magazine's... via the Net. There are also possibilities, consideration due to considering transshipping with others in/about your area... Bob Fenner>

Wholesale Business in Midwest Ohio?  - 06/30/06
Good morning Bob,
<Another hot one here in San Diego, Rob>
Hopefully you can help me out here. I might be crazy....
<I might be a butterfly/fish, dreaming I'm a petfish guy...>
I've been in the hobby for quite a while now and have really enjoyed it.
<Is a blast, eh?>
I have run a small basement hobby shop for a while and have expanded to doing some e-tailing.  Due to my size, getting quality live stock at a
good price is not easy.
<Yes... "economies of scale/s" definitely exist, impact here>
I have been dealing with wholesalers off 104th st with some success, but I feel better service is possible.
<Mmm, and worse if you catch my drift/plankton>
In central Ohio we have a decent amount of local fish stores, a few high end establishments.  With the retail market tapped out I started looking at
the wholesale market. There are a few wholesale locations in the near area; Dayton, Lansing, Michigan, Illinois and a few other locations.
While I have not visited all of these wholesale locations the few I have seem to be running a somewhat shoddy shop.  I feel with the right
relationships with exporters a higher quality livestock can be brought into this location.
<I am in agreement... though... see below please>
The main issue, is import locations.  To my knowledge Chicago is the nearest location live stock can be imported.
<This is correct... need Customs, brokering facilities and numerous International Air-freight flights...>
I heard a rumor that Detroit also allowed FWS imports?  Do you have any info on this?
<I don't know for sure, but have heard this rumor as well>
Am I completely out of my mind to think it would be possible to setup a wholesale location here that will cater to local retail outlets in the tri-state area?
<Is possible>
  Do you have any recommendations on importing? Dealing with customs brokers, freight forwarders?
<A proverbial "zillion"... Not an easy business to do, be involved in... I must (just cuz it's in my nature) hasten to mention a/the "Opportunity" costs involved in such an enterprise... that is, what one might otherwise do with ones resources (e.g. money, time, patience... and so much more). My fave way of putting this, "what else might you do" that would likely grant you as much/more "return on investment", "effort" with as little acceptable "potential for loss"... at least disaster-proof large losses?  This is a germinal question... I truly enjoy our interest, both hobby, business and scientific, but chose (decidedly, as in "nothing is decided till it's done", to go another full-tilt investment route (securities and real estate) and was able to "retire" (as folks say I now can't imagine having time for a job) back in '94 as a con/subsequent possibility... I have been a part of helping design, build-out, otherwise establish such wholesale facilities (and collecting stations, retail outlets...) around the world these last four decades... and so still have sensibilities re what is involved, the players, the relatively low ROI and high risks entailed... Is the potential for "fun", enjoyment, self-satisfaction "worth" the trials, noise, trouble of such an enterprise? Each/you must decide for yourself. I would (at this juncture) only wish that you engage yourself with full knowledge of what is entailed. I would definitely visit first-hand all the wholesale operations in the area... as well as those on 104th/LAX... for ideas on their set-ups, operations... I would read (thoroughly) the brief offerings on WWM's Aquatics Business subweb, detailing for yourself the "5 critical elements" (Go Rin No Sho)... and start looking for those key personnel, set-up, location, finance, stock/sources... as well as your "operations manual" of how you intend to do what you'll do...>
I plan on working on developing direct relationships with the exporters by visiting them each personally prior to selection.
<In their countries of origin... a good idea>
  Hopefully this will give me a small edge when it comes to the selection of livestock.
<A huge and necessary one... Plan on re-visiting them annually.>
Thanks for your time and I really appreciate your help.
-Rob
<Am very glad to help... Your and others success is critically important to me, my/our goals in aiding others in their respective success in our fields of interest, business. Bob Fenner>

FW Commercial fish DOA rates  06/14/2006
Bob,
<Jeff>
I look up to you as an industry icon!
<Heee! Thank goodness... someone shorter in stature than moi!>
I have a question. When receiving shipments from domestic (within the U.S.) suppliers of freshwater fish, what percentages would be normal in terms of
DOA and what percentages would indicate a clear out of the norm or atypical result due to netting stress, bagging, shipping stress?
Thanks,
Jeff
<What a good/difficult question... Well... let's see/state that with some "lighter" packing, preparation of livestock, such mortalities could/would be reduced appreciably. That said, there are going to be some incidental losses due to the vagaries of handling, collection... many variables. But how much is tolerable/acceptable? Many folks in the trade have a policy of shipping a few percent more specimens than ordered to make up for such losses... For others there is a contractual limitation, requiring calling, documentation, perhaps photographic evidence to verify substantial (whatever this is) losses for credit/replacement consideration. Okay, all this being qualified, I do think more than a few percent in any given number, species lost is too much. Large/r losses foretell more trouble coming... What's worse than "trying to sell out of an empty cart?"... having ones systems filled with up with obvious or not sick, unsaleable livestock! Anywho, "things" happen order to order, shipment to shipment, so tis necessary to be communicative (not the disease) and talk with your suppliers should there be troubles or no.
    Well, in retrospect, the question itself was rather easy... it's the response which is hard to understand. Bob Fenner>

Help Needed in dealing with wholesalers 5/14/06
Bob,
<Steve>
I am reaching out to you in hopes that you could provide some insight or direction.  I currently operate an "e-tail" business selling corals, fish and invertebrates.  I am facing two issues that if I can not overcome - I fear there would be no way to continue operation.  I am located on the east coast in Pennsylvania and am struggling to find quality wholesalers that will deal with me.  When I got into this business I promised that I would maintain the highest quality of livestock or I would not exist at all.
<Not an easy biz... a good, long "learning curve", small margins... and many marginal players...>
Unfortunately due to not having a brick and mortar location many of the quality wholesalers will not do business with me, which has lead me to deal mainly with transhippers.
<Can be a real proverbial "crap-shoot"... many long hours, highly variable vitality/survivability-mortality, quality...>
I am only able to obtain wild colonies which with methods for collection combined with shipping all the way from places like Tonga to Philadelphia international airport, there tends to be very high levels of loss - sometimes up to 2/3rds of an order.
<At times even higher...>
I would like to deal with wholesalers and perhaps even employ a jobber to assist in the selection of my livestock.  I wondered if you were aware of any that work with e-tailers?
<Have you tried FishHeads as a jobber? I would ask the folks at Sea Dwelling Creatures and Underwater World, Pacific Aquafarms... all in/about 104th street, LAX...>
I abide by any and all minimum order levels that a retail location would be held to.  If you could assist me in this matter I would be forever grateful.
Best Regards,
Steve Fauth
6 Feet REEF
<I do hope/trust these fine folks will deal with you (have known all for many years). Contact info. can be found in Buyer's Guides, the Net... am out in HI, away from my ref.s. Bob Fenner>

H-town livestock wholesalers, SW  - 09/10/06
Bob, do you know of any wholesalers in Texas other than Reefsavers? Will be going down for MACNA and would like to pick some fish/corals for our shop, but RS doesn't allow walk-ins.
thanks,
Joe
<Mmm, don't know much of anything re the folks there since way back when Fritz tanked with all their operations... See you then/there though... and we can ask around re. BobF, in Jamaica presently or would look in the industry mag.s "Buyer's Guides" re>

C-Quest new Toll free number. Note, this is a wholesale marine livestock supplier, not selling to consumers  9/21/06
Bob,
<Hi Barrie!>
It is Barrie here, from C-Quest.  I just wanted to drop you a quick note to give you some updated information.  I've set up a new telephone number for
people to contact us at.  The number is 1-888-4-TANKRAISED.  Which is 1-888-482-6572.  I’m trying to get this info out to as many people as
possible and if you have the opportunity to pass it along that would be great.
I’m actually down in Puerto Rico visiting the hatchery right now and having a blast.  I’ve been to do quite a bit of really amazing snorkeling right off the coast.  Fun Stuff!
<Oh yes!>
I’ll be back in California some time next week and I plan on making a road trip down to San Diego to visit some stores.  I’d be interested in meeting up for some ribs.
<Oh! Do please call me: 858 549 XXXX for this and I'll show you about (we only have a few stores that deal with marines unfortunately... but two or three might be your target customer. I'll call about, make sure the decision makers are about... BobF>
Take care,
Barrie

Wholesalers that deal with small outfits?
Hi whoever may answer this,
I tried this on WWF and no one answered so...
I have been trying to work this tank in this city, Albuquerque, and yesterday I talked to a newer store and couldn't believe it. I had bad luck with an online Jawfish (probably shipping stress-- lived for about a week and never ate), anyway I found a local store. They were serious when they said they would order one (unlike the rest of the places around here). The guy, though I don't think the owner, is a REAL enthusiast and insists on keeping the Jawfish a full two weeks in a tank by himself. He wants him eating and settled before I take him. I am way too happy about this!!
<sounds like a fine retailer to support>
But gosh the folk around here are living in the dark ages. The way they get saltwater fish is: they make out an order send it to a second company. This company has no tanks. The day they get the delivery from CA, they go out in their pickup and deliver. So the fish have to go thru a longer stressful shipping day then usual. 
<not at all uncommon>
It also ups the cost of the fish. I was wondering if you all would know of someone who deals with smaller orders (maybe $120-200)? I told him about Quality Marine and ORA (I think ORA at least deals with small orders?)
<many companies will... tell your dealer to subscribe to a good trade magazine like Pet Age, Pet Supplies Marketing or Pet Business. They have hundreds of pages of contacts and distributors. But his best bet is actually to go to LA at least one time and tour the hottest spot for wholesalers on 104th street. All of the big boys are there... QM, SDC, WSI, etc. It will be the best investment in his marine sections... actually meeting and seeing the suppliers. Order from there. Better yet, look up a fish picker in LA to pay $30-50 hr/order to cherry pick your order for you... trained eyes and ears picking the best and healthiest fish rather than minimum wage workers filling remote orders>
I think the business would go up-- as everybody I have met here orders online just because they can't find what they want. If they could they would not deal with shipping costs. This is also a small town in some ways, word will get around.
Also do you know of any resources for modernizing? They bought the shop from someone else and they have UGF, separate tanks (though the separate tanks are nice for my Jawfish-- not so nice for keeping up), and Skilters!!
<yes... attending the national trade shows and conferences are the best place to see technologies and get samples/ideas... MACNA is in Dallas this September... HH Backer has several shows yearly... other organizations have many on the West Coast. Your LFS needs to get more involved with the business side of his trade (starting with the above listed mag.s for contacts and show dates)>
(That is more or less typical here, btw). I don't think they have RO as the guy says he fights diatoms all the time. I hope you can help, we are getting a nice little aquarium group started here, so I know there is interest in having at least one good source for fishies and inverts.
<excellent to see you helping them get on the right foot!>
Thanks,--des
<Anthony>

Re: "the business" - Part 2
Hey Anthony, Thanks for your prompt reply! I think the elusive goal of life is to make a living doing something you love...unfortunately that isn't always so easy!
<agreed and agreed>
Well, I think you guys have done well, and I respect you for it.
<thanks kindly my friend>
Regarding my previous email, I would have to disagree with you on a few points.  The available flights and distance between Cairo, Egypt to DFW is actually a shorter distance and flight than to LAX!  
<alas, you are still missing the point bud, in part my fault due to/limited by the brevity of e-mail. Beyond transit time you must reckon the rigors of transport in unheated cargo wells through the tropical pacific to a warm destination (LA or Miami) versus the decidedly cooler path various shipments must traverse to get to Detroit (through London for many... over Canada for some! Brrrrrr!). With over ten years experience importing animals... I'll take 25 hours shipping tropicals through the tropics versus 20 hours via a latitude north of New York any day <G>.>
I am still trying to hammer down a flight plan that would be less than 20 hours (I'm down to about 39 hours so far).  
<the higher prices and higher mortality of Tonga shipments for example is because it takes around 30 hours to get anywhere civilized in America on import. Shipments over 20 hours are killing animals unnecessarily. You can trust me, doubt me or better yet talk to others that have done the same math for a consensus my friend. I assure you that you will make more profit and kill fewer animals by buying higher priced healthy livestock that has been held at a wholesaler, rather than purchasing a whole lot of stressed and dying cheaper animals transshipped direct. I'm not sure how/if you figure that Detroit is the closest place for Red Sea at 39 hours. Most Red Sea comes into the East coast (a little New York, most Miami>
Sri Lanka is also physically closer to Detroit than Los Angeles, although not by much.  
<again... the temperature in transit issue. There really is a reason why the majority of marine wholesalers are in California. You can live or die by the numbers... but the numbers will not lie>
I have not researched the flight times there yet.  A and M Aquatics (a wholesaler) in Lansing, Michigan often carries a large selection of Hawaiian, Red Sea, and Caribbean fish.  There are also wholesale facilities in Bloomington, Minneapolis (Salt H2O Headquarters).  Also, APET inc. in Illinois, Holiday Coral in Indiana.  
<No sale... you've named three. You can name 10X more and it will still be pale by comparison. The only reason these places exist is Detroit being one of 5 (7) legal ports of entry (and forwarding flights) for CITES listed animals. That still does not mean their rates of mortality and morbidity aren't higher. Making a profit and making an honest profit are sometimes two very different things. I am very aware of the wholesalers you have mentioned. You too can get the industry scoop at the trade shows and conferences <G>>
These are all legit operations with decent facilities (I've seen many of them).  
<OK... I'll stop trying to persuade you. Just tell me what you want to hear ;) >
I would never consider transshipping fish, as most (if not all) pet stores simply do not have the time or resources to acclimate the fish correctly.  
<agreed>
I believe corals can be transshipped, if care is taken to be selective in the species that are shipped.  
<this is a barely truthful assessment which I begrudgingly agree with. Severe limitations though>
Most transhippers I have had experience with have little knowledge
of the animals they are "shipping", and care even less if you have DOA's!
<I'm starting to wonder if it has rubbed off>
They are not a model for my business! I realize that you should not recommend that anyone import wild caught animals for a living.  I hope that legislation will not just shut down our
industry outright.  But our industry is unfortunately responsible for damage to reefs, and the forces that may ultimately destroy natural reefs are much harder to regulate!
<OK>
It is not my intention to form a large scale wholesale business.  But rather to form a high-quality small scale business.  
<sounds good... be sure to form and revisit a good business plan often>
I see too many fish that come in starving and diseased from large wholesalers. I hope that by focusing on smaller shipments, feeding and treating disease intensively, I can have higher quality fish.  I can then sell these fish to my maintenance customers (with more of an assurance they will live!), and sell the rest to select stores, or online.
<cool>
I have always tried to "do my part" to encourage propagation and captive-bred specimens, buying coral frags from customers, supplying the store with my own, trading frags with friends, etc.
<excellent... although you are preaching to the converted :) >
Doh! another long email...sorry =)
<no worries>
One more thing....after hearing your talk, I got rid of all my powerheads, and put a Gen-X pump on a closed loop in my tank.  That lowered the temp. by 4 degrees! Now I can run my halides longer, plus I have more water flow!
<its a beautiful thing! great to hear my friend <G>>
The comment on Caulerpa sp. algae also explains why Acropora don't survive very well in our store Ecosystem reef!  
<yes... amazing. The proof is in the pudding as they say>
Guess we'll have to set up a special tank for those! Brett
<best regards, bud... do chat more with us at MACNA 03 if we do not see you before then. Anthony>

"The business" - Part 3
hey again Anthony,
Go to sleep! =)  
<ha! Vampire shift <G>... somebody has to keep the WWM mail train running round the clock :) >
Seriously, your dedication to the hobby is admirable.   
Thanks for your input (again!).  
<and thank you for caring to know my/our opinion my friend>
I based my conclusions on distances between the Red Sea, DFW, and LAX on physical estimates ("as the crow flies"), which is but a rough estimate  compared to the reality of airline flight schedules.  
<understood and agreed we have to start somewhere>
Unfortunately, climate  control of airline compartments has yet to be initiated (except for pharmaceuticals and haz. chemicals, the folks that have big bucks!).
<I hear you my brother!>
I would definitely agree that shipping from a tropical location to a temperate location presents problems.  I thought that water quality concerns were more important (pH and ammonia) than temperature.  
<both are valid and significant concerns with varying effects on morbidity, mortality of marine life. Take the surgeonfish for example: studies have shown that they can take a 10 degree increase in temperature before showing rates of stress induced Ich infection that can be instigated with as little as a 3 degree drop in temperature. The ocean as we know it is remarkably stable in temperature. Dr Carlson told me one time that he dove water in Fiji that was 85F at 75 foot!!! Yep... stable water temps are a biggie. Agreed though, that other parameters of water quality are equally important and some more so>
I really don't want to tell you what I want to hear,  
<heehee... you were starting to scare me with the sales pitch in the last e-mail>
I just would prefer a discussion, rather than just hearing an opinion.  And, it's just more fun to argue! =)
<you're married? :p >
Well I'm past the point of writing good email...I'm off to dreams of snorkeling in the south pacific.... Thanks again! Brett
<ciao, bub... and best of luck. Anthony>

Corals for German Distributor
Dear Thomas,
Thank you for your e-mail dated 30 December.
Ornamental Fish International is an international aquatic industry organization with members in 40 countries.
As such, we do not, ourselves, deal with the import or export of fish, plants, corals, etc. However, please visit our website (www.ornamental-fish-int.org) where, among other things, you will find a full listing of our members under the Members' Directory section. Please feel free to contact any of them.
With best wishes.
John
JOHN DAWES
SECRETARY GENERAL
ORNAMENTAL FISH INTERNATIONAL
APARTADO DE CORREOS 129,
29692 SABINILLAS,
MANILVA,
MALAGA,
SPAIN.
TEL:+34 95 289 1975
FAX: +34 95 289 0895
E-MAIL: ofidawes@compuserve.com
www.ornamental-fish-int.org
<Thank you for the follow-up John. Bob Fenner>

Wholesale startup...
Hi folks,
<Hello>
I'm wondering if anyone can guide me in the right direction on what I need to prep for a wholesale start-up for tropical fishes (fresh and salt), corals and live rocks, on the legal side? I currently reside in California and I need to find out what's legal or illegal to import.  Also, there might be some restriction on livestock from certain countries and the like. Any input is appreciated. Thanks in advance...
<Whoa! There is MUCH to learn... and confluent with my "working philosophy" of offering help "appropriately" I/we need to not start "en media res" (in the middle of things)... there are other critical (as in deadly) aspects of this potential venture to know well... other than the legal side (there are laws, CITES, forms-a-plenty to fill out for import, often from exporting countries), but relationships to build (there are crooks in our trade, incompetents, non-A players... to sort through, discover, befriend)... What is your background in the industry? Do you have time to work for someone else for a few months? I WOULD NOT continue forward w/o this valuable experience (I won't be party to helping you fail, but will gladly introduce you to friends who are "doing what you want to do"). Bob Fenner>

Re: wholesale startup...
Bob,
<Steve>
Thanks a bunch for your prompt reply and invaluable advice. I apologize for not being able to get back any sooner... Back to the subject, I don't intend to do this "big" at all...
<Let's continue this conversation in a broad manner (for posterity, others edification). There is no way to "do this not big"... there is a severe "economy of scale" working against small-timers... the net-landed cost of small shipments (less than LD-3's) is enormously more per shipment, per organism... you won't be able to compete unless you can justify the one-shot costs of paperwork, CITES, the freight cost per kilo at container, 500 kilo rates...>
I'm really thinking of running this setup at home (garage or something), with a 3 - 5 hundred gallon reef setup. I happen to know some foreign suppliers who can get me great prices on live stock and rocks.
<We would need to define "great"... you'll soon find that there are many hidden and opportunity costs to "bringing in your own" livestock>
I only intend to be a supplier of LFS around my neighborhood. Only thing to sort out really are the logistics of import/export.
<I hope you have patience... for missed, delayed flights... and plenty of capital>
I 'm currently checking with California Fish & Game,  Food and Agriculture and USDA, especially for species that are protected and prohibited...Do you see any issue here?
<No real issue with the State, Fed.s... the real issues are human in general... as you will soon fully realize. Good luck my friend. Bob Fenner>
Thanks in advance for your time in this...

Cube holding systems for marine fish wholesalers   12/27/06
Hi Bob,
<Kent>
Just wondering if you can suggest some manufacturers of holding systems for marine fish wholesalers – we are looking for systems that hold the fish in individual cubes and we haven’t been able to locate any manufacturers other than RK2 as yet – it’s difficult to get information from down here in Australia.
Best regards,
Kent
<Glad to help you... the very best units I've encountered were produced for Quality Marine/LA... when Phil Shane owned/ran it... these are individually serviced/drained for water, have separate hinged covers.... and have one side bead-blasted/obscured (very important) that reduces aggression/view from one side/animal to the next... Phil told me he somehow had this "patented"... Am going to cc the current owner/manager here and ask that he respond to you re the possibility of sending this technology or product... Otherwise, the Krechter brothers of RK2 (will BCC them as well), TMC in the UK (ditto) are companies that I know to be competent and honest in the fabrication of such in our trade. Bob Fenner>

Coral Collecting and Supply Business   10/27/06
Dear Bob,
<Alan>
I believe you are the best person I can ask for advice. I live near the sea in Malaysia and have easy access to coral reefs. I've been dreaming of letting up a business to supply corals to LFS in Malaysia and Singapore LFS.
I'm able to find a place to set up a holding facility for the livestock's, and also know about CITES regulations and stuffs.
<Good... all necessary elements>
But I'm not sure if this idea is viable in the long run especially when the market outlook isn't as good as it used to be. What do you think?
<Hard to impossible to predict, but I do believe (with confidence) that there is still "room" for such an endeavour...>
And furthermore it seems like the demand for livestock is more inclined towards exotics these days, of which I'm not confident of finding them in abundance in my collecting area. Maybe I just have to dive deeper instead of hanging out at shallow lagoons. Do you think this business can be done? I feel like quitting my job to do this full-time. Any words of wisdom and suggestion is appreciated. Thanks and have a nice day.
<Mmm... it is a very good idea to be able to sample ones market... after defining such... and determine what will sell better, best... But having dived, visited both countries, I am sure there is a good mix of species to be had, perhaps cultured... Very many other important aspects to understand thoroughly (collecting, holding, bagging/shipping) and critical relationships to forge with suppliers, customers, the airlines... Do you have specific industry experience? My usual strong suggestion here to "try this on someone else's dime/Ringgit/Sing. Dollar... ahead of making a large monetary/time investment of ones own. Bob Fenner>

Re: Coral Collecting and Supply Business  - 10/25/06
Hi again Bob,
thanks for the speedy reply.
<Certainly welcome>
Unfortunately I have no business experience as I was brought up and trained to work for others in a tiny room :(
<Mmm... this knowledge is not hard to gain... you obviously have drive and intelligence... and a capacity with written English>
I was thinking of trying out first by selling a batch of corals to this buyer in Singapore, and then see how things goes. He has expressed interest only in the popular corals like exotic zoanthids and Ricordea Yumas, so I have no choice but to deliver what he or the market wants.
<This could be a good start for sure>
My greatest concern in the long run would be price competition from Indonesia side as they have greater varieties of corals and low price due to the weak Indon.. currency. Perhaps I have to come up with some USP? (Unique Selling Points).
<Yes... and quality and service should be your by-words... Bob Fenner>

Import License - 10/22/2006
Hello Bob and crew,
<Greg>  
I am starting a wholesale marine facility in Pennsylvania.  So far it is going great!  Do I need an import license from USFW to import live rock and corals directly from Jakarta, Indo, Soloman Islands, etc.?
<Mmm, not as far as I'm aware... will need to apply for CITES clearance each shipment>
I have the suppliers, but do not want to forward money before I get this cleared up.
<Mmm... a comment... unless you know the folks involved VERY well, I would NOT send money... a wire transfer can be arranged to be more or less simultaneous with the shipments... or better still, a credit issued pending....>
Also, would it be best to have the shipments arrive first in LAX, clear customs, then forward to Philadelphia or Newark?  
<You'll want to check re the time frames and cost of each... I would enlist the help of a freight forwarder in all cases>
Should I contact a customs broker for this?  
<Yes... there are prominent ones that deal in our trade at every airport that receives livestock. BobF, in Indonesia presently>
Thanks for your help!
Greg