Re: New system design critique & questions 10/9/08 Hi Scott, Thanks as ever for the reply. <Welcome Chris!> I'm pleased to report no problems with the tank drilling - far easier than I anticipated! <Great!> The rest of the tanks were ordered yesterday so I'm just starting to get excited! I had concrete block delivered today & I just wanted to check that my plans will give the required structural integrity - Please see attached pic For the Main tank (5 feet long, 26 inches wide & 20 inches tall with a water depth of 18 inches) I am planning to put 2 courses of concrete block at either end, 3 blocks high, this will give a "wall" at each end of the tank, 26" long (tank width) & a smidge over 8" wide. This will be topped by 3/4" plywood with 4 4"x2" timbers screwed under this base (on edge) & sitting on the concrete walls, then 25mm polystyrene then the tank. All block work will be cemented to the concrete floor. The block work will clearly not have any problem supporting the weight here, but how about the "span" (around 42") between each end? <Four 2X4’s will be plenty strong for this span.> I figure this will be plenty strong enough to not flex but I'd like a 2nd opinion! <Your plan is fine!> Cheers Chris <Good to hear of your success, keep in touch, Scott V.> Re: New system design critique & questions <Oh Chris, one more thing. I would take a piece of 2X4 and screw your spanners together at their ends also to prevent any twisting here. Scott V.>

Question regarding tank stand capacity inside cabinet. 6/4/08
Good Afternoon Bob (or the other kind individual answering this)
<Hello Hans, Scott V. with you.>
First off, an apology. I had e-mailed you a while back regarding a write-up on the Lifegard CustomFlo system, but my computer ended up dying and took all my photos with it.
<Bummer.>
However, I will be finishing that up shortly, as I recently tore the plumbing apart for cleaning and a significant modification... so a new batch of the critical photos has been taken and work progresses again! It's probably for the better anyways, as I've learned a lot more about using the system in the interim both good and bad.
<Great!>
Now for the actual question. My current tank setup is a 90 gallon AGA tank, on their "Modern" series oak stand. It is my first salt water tank, having only done freshwater in the past, and while I learn the differences I have it stocked very lightly, with just a single clown, two damsels, a pair of hermit craps and a peppermint shrimp. Filtration is currently a Penn-Plax Cascade 1200, and about 50 pounds of live rock and sand (slowly adding more rock every few weeks to avoid cycling issues). I've also got a Remora Pro due to arrive any day now and plan on adding a pair of Koralia 3 power heads in the near future. The tank has been running for 5 months now, and is starting to suffer from a red-slime algae buildup. The initial lack of skimmer and water flow is being rectified, but I also honestly admit that my water changes got lax as well.
<Happens to all of us at times, sounds like a nice setup.>
The one thing I didn't fully appreciate is the differences in water changes between fresh water and salt.... pre-mixing 10 gallons in buckets at a time, and having to lift it up over the edge of the tank got very frustrating and messy. So the extra plumbing I've been adding is to put a 29 gallon tank with heater and powerhead under the stand as a sump for pre-mixing and warming the water in anticipation of the changes, I have a loose hose plumbed into the intake line of the filter with appropriate valving that allows me to drain the main tank as well as pull water into the tank through the filter.
<A good idea. We are all more likely to be true with our water changes if we make it an easy affair.>
Functionally it has tested out successfully and I am excited about future variations on the theme. This should, in theory, make the water changes much easier on my back and floors. But the real worry I have right now is weight. Are these commercial stands built to hold that much water on their bottom shelves?
<Most in general are.>
None of the documentation I've found, nor their customer service line, were able to answer the question one way or another. The stand has no way to view the underlying structure either. Worst case, I can cut out the shelf and put in a sufficient support structure, but I'd rather not do that if I don't have to.
<If you are concerned, just cut a piece of plywood to fit inside. This will distribute the load of the tank to the perimeter of the stand, where it is strongest. But, I would not be concerned with a tank this size inside the stand.>
Thank You
-Hans Haase
<Welcome, have fun, Scott V.>

Will the desk hold?   8/24/07
Good morning!
How are you? Great site By the way. Tons and tons of info.
I recently bought a 20 gallon long. I will be putting on a desk that has held a 5 gallon and an 8 gallon tall (not at the same time). I weigh like 170 pounds and I sat on the desk with the 5 gallon. The desk did not wobble and it was level with all the weight on it.
Should I do any more tests or would you say it's okay?
One more thing, can I use a pad of carpet as the cushion between the tank and desk?
Thanks,
-Edward
<Hello Edward. Thanks for the kind words about the site. Anyway, in my opinion/experience, the upper limit for putting tanks on anything not designed for supporting one is about 10 gallons. Above that, and you're asking for trouble. While furniture may hold a bigger tank for a while, eventually the wood or whatever sags, and then the stress on the glass bottom of the tank gets skewed, and the tank leaks. Result: poor fishkeeper gets woken at 4 in the morning by the sound of splashing water and has to quickly carry fishes to a bucket and then mop up the floor. Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. So no, I wouldn't do this. Cheers, Neale.>

Questionable Tank Stand – 07/24/07
Hey Crew,
Awesome Site!!! Anyway, I just thought I'd ask you guys a quick question. I bought what seemed good at the time: two small, matching nightstand/dressers for my L36" W14" H18" 40g aquarium. I thought these would be good for $20 instead of the $180 stands they sell at my LFS. What I think I might regret about these things is that they don't meet in the middle, and their's about an inch of space between each and that means the tanks not supported about an inch in the middle. I have had this tank for three yrs., and nothing has happened, but I fear something will. Is there too much stress? Should I get a new stand? Any suggestions would be helpful. Thank you,
Nate
<Hello Nate. Let me tell you a story. One night I was asleep and for some reason I was dreaming about rain. But then I realised I wasn't dreaming about rain, I was listening to rain. And the rain wasn't outside the house, but inside my bedroom. Only after a few moments did it dawn on me that my aquarium was leaking. The bottom pane of glass had cracked during the night because the wooden top of the dresser I had sat it on had finally sagged too far and the pane of glass couldn't support the weight of the water any more. The moral of the story is that you shouldn't assume [a] that any old piece of furniture will support an aquarium safely; or [b] that said furniture will be safe tomorrow because it is working fine today. If you're going to rest an aquarium on two separate cabinets, you have the risk of one of them moving relative to the other, placing stress on the bottom of the tank as one end sags lower than the other. As you probably realise with most aquaria they are very strong in terms of resisting the static forces of a body of water but they are incredibly poor at resisting twisting forces because the silicone has poor resistance to this and the glass has none at all. At the very least, you need to have a single piece of strong wood forming a base upon which the tank rests, plus polystyrene tiles on top of that for cushioning. I'd also recommend some sort of bracing to keep the two cabinets from moving apart from each other. But really, this isn't something I'd consider safe. Your own mileage may vary of course, but I've been stung by the "DIY tank stand" disaster and would never try it again. Cheers, Neale.>

Wrought-Iron Tank Stand...Is It Safe? – 06/04/07
I have a 29-gal. saltwater tank with 10 lbs. of live rock on a wrought iron stand.
<<Okay>>
I am kind of worried about the weight on the stand.
<<Shouldn’t be...if the stand was “made” to support the/a aquarium>>
Do you know how much weight these stands can handle?
Thanks.
<<A few decades back I remember these inexpensive (at the time, anyway) wrought-iron stands being much the “norm”...I even had one that I put “two” 55g tanks on (a saltwater tank above a freshwater tank). Barring any defects in materials or craftsmanship, if the stand was intended to hold the tank it will be fine...though they do tend to be a bit “wobbly” by nature. EricR>>

Need more options... Something for underneath a large acrylic tank and DIY wooden stand?  5/17/07
      Hi, Crew,  please help! (some more)
<Okay>
My eyes are burning  and I can almost recite most posts within tank\stand posts !!!
<Perhaps you're ready to write an article re?>
    I would like to use something else besides pink Styrofoam under my 125 gallon 1\2"acrylic tank(48x24x24).
<Comes in other colors... or you can paint it yourself, make/use a border about...>
  I have done extensive research on your site
and cannot find other "giving" underlayment options. My tank will be set up in my living room on a custom stand that I have polyurethaned and thought that a weight lifting mat may also work, 1\2" dense rubber.
<Oh yes>
  Or possibly a dense neoprene material at 1\4"-1\2".
<Ditto>
   I would like a two inch over tank size border around the tank to also protect my wood stand
<Best to make sure this wood is sealed otherwise>
and for aesthetics.  I would like it to look like a  "mouse pad" , if feasible.
<Such material is available as well>
My stand is a massive, overbuilt and engineered DIY with 1 1\2" hardwood ply solid top. I planed the top imperfections until level and planar until the tank felt real solid and would not slide easy and with no " rock" . I would like the mat to disperse any imperfections of a max 1\16" inch in middle of 48" section of tank. I figured once the weight is added it may settle and may have been o.k. without a mat but just want to do whatever is best.
Question time:
Is there any reaction between acrylic and different rubbers?
<None appreciable>
Is the cost why most people use the pink Styrofoam?
<Don't know... more likely easy availability is the principal determinant here>
What are other options that are used?
<Many... see above... Most anything that is largely inert, "giving" can/does work>
With my tank at around 1250 pounds full, what thickness should I use for the different materials?
<Depends on the issues of level-ness and planarity here... Do you have concerns that given the load with the tank full that there will be some asymmetry imposed? If not, I would not be concerned, NOT use something twixt the stand and tank... not necessary, and a mess in time>
If Styrofoam should be used, what color and thickness do you recommend?
<Likely a half inch will do in this case>
Thanks in advance for a great site. I refer to your site before making any purchases now,  after I feel confident in making the "right choice" for my given situation. Your knowledge is invaluable.
Thanks again, Mark.
<Glad to share, kibitz... Do check out the foam offerings at the big-box stores Home Depot and Lowe's. Bob Fenner>

Sump and Return Pump, and Stand Questions - 02/09/2007
Dear WWM Crew,
   <Scott>
  First, thanks for establishing this informative forum.  It has been extremely helpful and I am a frequent visitor.  I conducted some research but didn't find a good response to the question I have.  I have a 180 gallon acrylic aquarium.  Prior to receiving the aquarium as a surprise gift from my lovely wife, I had purchased a 180 gallon All-Glass stand.  I know that an acrylic tank must have support across the entire bottom of the tank.  If I were to place a 3/4" - 1" piece of plywood on top of the entire stand, would this be enough support for the tank or do you have additional recommendations?
<This thickness plywood should be fine... I would go ahead and fasten it (with screws... brass or stainless would be best... and coat over these...) to the outside edges (every six inches or so) to give added strength to the "inside" of the support>
I could attempt to sell the All-Glass stand, if necessary.  Also, while I was conducting research on return pumps, additional concerns came to mind.  The acrylic tank has a 16" X 5" overflow in the center.  The sump I have ordered from the LFS has arrived and it has two return holes drilled on the end of the tank.  In hindsight, perhaps I should have had the holes drilled in the center side of the sump versus the ends.  Your thoughts?
<Mmm, not a big deal... I'd use the one on hand with the through puts on the end>
The overflow has (2) 1 1/2" dual drains and (2) 3/4" returns.  I was planning on purchasing a Iwaki 70RLT (1500 gph @ 4' Head) or 100RLT (2000 gph @ 4' Head).  Iwaki seems to be the pump of choice in Michael Paletta's "Ultimate Marine Aquariums".
<Is a good product line... amongst a few... though there are some quieter>
Anyway, in determining what the return rate of the pump should be, I'm not sure how many gallons of water will drain out of the tank, and as such what the rate of my return pump should be.  Also, I was contemplating using 2 pumps instead of one, but believe that I would be better off with the one pump (with a 2nd as an emergency back-up).
<I agree>
  Now, for my sump, it is 60 gallons with a refugium in the center.  I probably should have planned this out a bit better because of the overflow being in the center.  I know it is best to have the overflows drain into the first compartment which houses the skimmer.  Would you recommend that I route the drain water to the first compartment
with PVC?
<Yes>
Should I connect both drains using a "T" connector or just have each of them continue to drain separately.
<I would have drain separately... a bit more flow, not as much noise from the separate fall...>
An additional concern I have is that I will have to use additional PVC to route the returns from the pump (housed on the end of the sump) to the center, which I'm sure will affect the amount of water that is being returned.
<Yes, but not much>
  I was planning on turning the water over 10X+ times/hour, but I'm not sure how feasible this is with my current set-up.  Have you ever known anyone to have the sump drilled in the center side and have the return pump housed there?
<Oh yes>
If you feel it necessary to modify the sump, please let me know.  There aren't many quality resources in Tucson for me to turn to.   I sincerely apologize for the lengthy email, but I know that you have the resources and expertise necessary to provide good advice.  Thanking you in advance.     
  Scott
<Well... the principal concern I have is the rate of flow of water to/through the refugium portion... I would devise your plumbing to have this reduced considerably, by bypass. Bob Fenner>

Using Treated Wood For Aquarium Structures - 02/04/07
Dearest Bob and Friends,
<<Greetings>>
Wishing good health to all; I have been on a very strict diet for 3 weeks.. argh!)
<<I hate diets...>>
I have finished building a very strong stand for a new 90-gal I will be setting up.
<<Cool!>>
I am quite sure that I made a mistake in my wood selection.
<<Oh?>>
I used 5x5 treated wood.  Afterwards I found out that treated wood has a poison biocide stain (green) on it.
<<Mmm, indeed...is why it is called "treated."  The use of arsenic (chromated copper arsenate) was banned for residential use in 2004, the treated wood available to homeowners (hobbyists) today contains either alkaline copper quat or copper azole.  While much less toxic to us than the arsenic based treatment, you'll notice the common ingredient is copper...sometimes as high as 96%.  Obviously you don't want this leaching in to your tank>>
This is a problem right?
<<It can be yes...and is why I chose to not use treated lumber when building my in-wall reef display>>
Can I simply varnish over?
<<I don't recommend this...it just won't last in this environment, and the wood is still likely too "wet" anyway.  Your best option is to use a penetrating oil stain to seal the wood that can easily be renewed as needed>>
Another problem is that the wood I used was not 100% dry when I got it.
<<Ah, yes...treated and kiln-dried wood is sometimes available, but more often than not the wood at the home centers (Lowe's/HD) is not "dried" and is only hours/days old after the treatment process>>
Now it seems to have finished drying since it was built and now the areas where the tank sits on the stand is no longer planar.
<<Not unusual...treated wood is usually meant for "rough" construction and is not the best "cuts"...couple that with the extremely high moisture content and bowing/twisting is inevitable.  Another reason for using untreated and kiln-dried wood>>
Off by 1/8 inch at some places.  I tried to level off using a hand sander and files but I think I made it worse.
<<You're best option here is to start over with better wood I think>>
The wood has also cracked in some areas but I doubt that is of any worry.
<<Mmm, I don't agree...there will be an awful lot of weight on this stand>>
I honestly think my stand could hold a train car. (5x5 wood, secured using 7 inch 3/8 wood screws, and wood glue, structure is all boxed in)
<<Ah...but is all "moot" if it is not level and planar>>
At this point I'm thinking that I could simply place a 1/4 inch thick rubber strip under the perimeter (this is a perimeter trim tank) of the tank to compensate for my non-planar mess!
<<Mmm, I don't think this is a good solution here>>
I think I remember reading your advice against this but I think at this point I'm ready to accept a non-ideal solution.
<<Are you ready to accept having the tank burst?>>
I think the odds of me bringing this planar using hand tools is slim.
<<Likely, yes>>
It is not as easy and is actually quite easy to make worse.
<<Indeed...and reason enough to chalk this up as a "learning experience" and just start over>>
Thank you very much for your time.
<<Happy to share.  EricR>>
Tristan

Using large buffet as aquarium stand 8/11/05
I am planning on buying a 90 gallon tall tank (36x18x31) or a 70 gallon (36x18x25) and a custom refugium (15x18x31 or 15x18x25) that would sit side-by-side on the same stand.  Would the refugium need to be higher in order to flow back into the tank without a pump?
<Yes>
  Maybe it can be done at this height if the tank is drilled?
<Water seeks its own level...>
Anyway, my main question:  The "stand" I am planning on using is an antique buffet.  It is "strong like bull", but I am not sure it could handle the weight of the tanks.  
<Mmm, the tanks et al. weigh about ten pounds per gallon filled up... I would at least try placing this much weight on the piece of furniture... to try it out...>
Considering the different weights on each end of the stand, would this set up be unstable?
<Only way to tell is to try...>
Would it be better to get a tank  with a 48" length (centered on the buffet) and forget using the refugium? How do I determine whether this piece of furniture can hold these aquariums?
<Experiment... not with the tanks, but equivalent weight>
Do the supports need to be a certain distance apart--or certain thickness?
<Likely you will want to place some four by pieces of wood every two feet... under the buffet, to support... on the principal members>
I would really rather not get another stand if I don't have to.   It will be on carpet on top of slab foundation, and the legs are large and flat.
If I decide on the 90 gal, there will be about 180 lbs of LR and 110lbs of substrate.  If I go with the 70, it would include 130 lbs of LR and 110lbs of substrate.
<And the water at about 8.2 pounds per gallon... about ten pounds per gallon...>
The refugium would hold an extra 30-40 lbs of live rock and 20 lbs of substrate.  The main tank is to be a coral tank and the refugium is to serve as a typical refugium (algae, copepods, shrimp) and a seahorse tank (I am planning to use a breeder box in the refugium to further protect some of the shrimp and pods from the seahorses).
Thanks for your time,
Angela
<Do want to mention that you consider the probable damage to this piece... from moisture, spills... a good, strong stand can be made for not much money... see Ozreef.org for DIY plans here... IMO, leave the buffet for future "Antiques Roadshow" programs. Bob Fenner>

Aquarium stand question  9/26/05
Hey guys I don't know if you remember me but you helped me out a lot in setting up my 1500 gallon reef tank 3 years ago. (sorry I never got you any pics will send them right away) My parents are moving to New York and I am taking the 75 reef that they had in their living room. I'm moving it from an all glass 75 to a modified SeaClear system 2 (replaced bio filter with refugium its cool) and the tank is going to be on a dresser (the dresser has had this tank on it before and more than supports the weight) the concern is the dresser is on carpet and wobbles a bit with just the weight of the empty tank on it. Will this problem correct itself with the weight of the tank and rock or become worse like I have a feeling it will?
<Mmm, doubtful>
Also would a piece of 1 inch plywood maybe 4 inches wider than the base of the dresser correct this issue? Thanks for your help you guys are great!
<I would fill it otherwise empty of gravel, gear and see how steady, stable (and level, planar) this tank is... I suspect it will solidly settle in with the weight of the water. Bob Fenner>

Tank Stand  9/26/05
Hey guys I don't know if you remember me but you helped me out a lot in setting up my 1,500 gallon reef tank 3 years ago. (Sorry I never got you any pics will send them right away!) My parents are moving to New York and I am taking the 75 reef that they had in their living room. I’m moving it from an All-glass 75 to a modified sea clear system 2 (replaced bio filter with refugium its cool) and the tank is going to be on a dresser (the dresser has had this tank on it before and more than supports the weight).  The concern is the dresser is on carpet and wobbles a bit with just the weight of the empty tank on it. Will this problem self-correct with the weight of the tank and rock or become worse like I have a feeling it will? Also would a piece of 1 inch plywood maybe 4 inches wider than the base of the dresser correct this issue? Thanks for your help you guys are great!
<I like the idea of a piece of plywood under the stand, level it, then give it a test fill to see if it stays level or requires some shimming.  Wobbles scare me, it might correct itself with the weight but I would sleep better knowing it is level and sturdy.  We look forward to some pics of the 1,500 gallon reef; I'm getting jealous just thinking about it. -Gage>

300 gal tank stand  12/30/2005
Hi, Bob:
<Phil>
I’ve been reading the WWM site for info as I prepare to finally set up my 130 and 300 gal tanks as reef tanks.   They were in storage for 23 years until I bought a house and know I do not intend to move soon.
<I'll bet!>
I built an aquarium room in the single bay area of a three bay garage to get the aquariums on a concrete floor.  I have many questions, but will concentrate on my current area of concern.  They are both All Glass tanks.  The 130 has about ¼ inch space between the bottom of the tank and the bottom molding that I think can be resolved with ½ to 1 inch Styrofoam sheet,
<Yes, should be fine>
but the 300 has about 1 inch space between the bottom glass and the outside bottom edge.  I was thinking of filling this rectangle with 1 inch Styrofoam and then the whole tank set on a stand with 1 inch Styrofoam.  
<Mmm, likely a good idea... the "floating" bottom (this is what they're called in the industry) is fine, but the edge/frame is best situated on the foam>
I thought of using 4 x 6 beams, with the 6 inch in vertical under the tanks.  Do you think I could get a 4 foot opening under the 130 or 300 gal stand using this wood, as the sump will be used for both systems and is wider than both aquariums?
<Yes, as long as the rest of the structure is sound>
There is limited amount of space in this room because my wife asked me to reduce its size.  The sump is 41 x 46 x 30High.  The garage floor slopes ¼ inch every two feet in a north to south orientation and the 130 will be in this orientation, creating additional problems in building a level tank stand.
<Do shim the stand to being level...>
I have Googled DIY aquarium stands finding some info.
<Try Ozreef.org?>
I was going to use a plenum system for NNR in the 130, but my LFS recommends against this and recommends using live rock in both tanks and the sump, which I was going to do anyway.  
<Up to you... ultimately... not me or the LFS... But I would put a DSB in this sump... with or w/o a barrier/plenum>
I also plan to use a refugium for macroalgae and critter development and was told that I should get plenty
of critters in a system this size with the live rock that will be in place.  The stands are a critical step in the process.  Neither tank has
been filled with water since their purchase.  I am not in a hurry to make a mistake, but am so close to water in the tank that I can hardly
wait.  Please help with your suggestions/input any way possible.  Thank you.  Phil
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Acrylic Tank Support in ASCII? - 12/05/05
Hi Bob,
<<EricR here...Bob is off in a warm and sunny place keeping his diving skills finely honed...>>
I was researching what the web says about supporting an acrylic tank, and found your article: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/tksstds.htm. I am replacing a 20-yr old 65g (48x18x18) glass tank with acrylic. It is going on top of a wrought iron stand which has a horizontal support, 6 inches from the back. The tank is sitting on a plastic frame with center support 24 inches from end.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 0
+ +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 6"
+ +
+ +
+ +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 18"
Do I need plywood to go under the tank, or is the iron cross brace sufficient to support the almost center of the tank?
<<Plywood is advised here, the bottom will flex/bulge under the weight otherwise. Many acrylic tanks are made with thinner acrylic on the bottom than the sides as it is assumed it will be "fully" supported...and...manufacturers will not honor warranties if the tank is not properly supported.>>
Thanks.
Neil Frank
Raleigh, NC
<<Regards, EricR>>

Looking For An Oceanic Tank Stand - 03/15/2006
Hello, My name is Joey and I love your website.
<Thank you Joey.>
I wanted to know if you can direct me to a place or number to find a stand for an Oceanic tank for a 84x24.5 x 25 a 200 RRE BO.  Please help as soon as you can because I am moving and the shop that I go to all the time for some reason can't find a stand before the first of next month. This would mean a lot to me for your help and I Thank You for all your help that I have got from the site.
<Well Joey, the best I can think of is to try contacting Oceanic here  http://www.oceanicsystems.com/ . They should be able to offer some help.>
Thanks,
Joey Harper  
<You're welcome. - Josh>

Re: Looking For An Oceanic Tank Stand - 03/16/2006
Thank you very much.
<You're welcome.>
I have just one more question for you please, I want to set up the 200G on the second floor of a house that I'm moving to and the floor is all wood and when I walk around the second floor apartment it makes no sound and it feels pretty strong.
<It really depends on the construction of the house. I wouldn't put this on the second floor though. We're talking well over 2'000 lbs. here.>
Do you think it could fall through the house?
<A very real possibility.>
Do you think 200G is to heavy?
<Don't know for sure, too many factors.>
Please let me know and I thank You so much.
<You're welcome Joey. - Josh>