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| FAQs on Tap/Source Water Use for Marine Aquariums,
Treatments by Brand, Manufacturer Related Articles: Treating Tap water for
Marine Aquarium Use, Water Purification
Using Reverse Osmosis,
Related FAQs: Treating Tapwater 1,
Treating Tapwater 2,
Treating Tapwater 3, & FAQs on New Water
Treatment: Rationale/Science,
Chemicals (Chlorine, Chloramines, Trihalomethanes...),
Filtrants, Techniques/Tools,
Testing, Troubleshooting,
DIY Treatment Chemicals/Tools,
& Reverse
Osmosis Filtration, Specific Gravity, Water
Purification Using R.O 1. RO/DI 2, RO/DI
3, Nitrates, Water Changes,
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A follow-up to "I need help, all my fish died 3/28/07" More on Amquel (and
A.C.E. . ) poss. toxicity 3/31/07
Good afternoon Crew,
<Nicole>
I just wanted to add to this question, which Alex answered, in which someone
named Dawn relayed the disaster that her 45 gallon reef tank experienced.
<Please do>
I myself have noticed this odor with the Amquel+ product, but when I first
bought a bottle of it about a year ago, it had a similar smell.
The smell seems to have become concentrated as the product was expended. It
leaves a very lasting odor - an uncapped bottle can quickly smell up a room!
This makes me uneasy, but I do believe it is normal to some extent. Even Prime
(in my opinion the best dechlorinator, the 50 ml dropper bottle makes dosing
very simple - 3 drops per gallon) has a section on the back where it says:
"Sulfur odor is normal."
<Yes>
Prime, however, has a very slight odor, in my opinion. The Amquel+ product
definitely does not! I answer fish questions on another site, and have seen many
cases where an addition of Amquel+ or A.C.E. . caused major disruption of the
bio-filter, usually nitrites shooting up sky high.
<Yes>
I cannot say that it is due to the product alone, but it certainly was a
catalyst. Although both Novalek and Jungle do offer other fine aquarium products
- these particular ones, I would never recommend to anyone.
<Me neither>
Thanks for reading this, and for all that you do each day for hobbyists
worldwide!
Nicole
<Thanks much for coming forward... with this lucid, useful input. Bob Fenner>
Bubble Tip Anemone and Prime – 3/11/07
Bob,
<Hi Cindy, Brenda here>
I have a question about a Bubble tip. My husband got this guy on Thursday. He
put Prime in the tank today.
<Why? Prime is used to remove chlorine and ammonia. It is also used during
cycling to reduce ammonia, nitrate and nitrite toxicity. You should be using RO
or RO/DI water. An anemone should not be added to a tank until it is well
established. It is recommended to wait six months to one year before adding an
anemone.>
Now the Anemone is sucked back until it is very small and looks a little jelly
like.
<It is not unusual for an anemone to deflate from time to time. It needs to
expel waste. If it looks like it is melting or decaying, it is dead. Need to
remove it, do a large water change and monitor your water parameters closely.>
What could be wrong with this guy and is there anything we can do to help him?
<Without more information on your tank such as equipment, age, water parameters,
and as to why Prime was added, I can’t offer much help.>
He did try to feed him today but he wouldn't eat.
<That is not unusual for a newly introduced anemone.>
Cindy
<Sorry, need more information. Brenda>
PRIME (SEACHEM) 3/11/07
How are you all doing?
<Good thanks.>
I have a question about the product PRIME from Seachem. I have a little system
made to dispense Freshwater (R/O) from a 26 gallon trash can and a saltwater mix
(1.023) that is in another 26 gallon. I have heaters in both and have power
heads in both. My question is when I make new fresh water with the R/O maker,
can I just implement the PRIME in the freshwater trash can? <Not necessary with
R/O water, it removes the chemicals Prime treats.> Or when I'm ready to mix new
saltwater and add it to my saltwater trash can should I put the PRIME in the
saltwater mix? Where do you think the Prime would be more effective or does it
even matter? <Unnecessary.> Sorry but two more question my tank has been cycling
for two weeks now and I have been doing 5-10% water changes so far at the end of
each week ( Only two so far).
However, I also have real fine sand in the tank. Do I need to siphon the sand
too. <I would not unless it has algae growth on it.> Or can I just pick up the
die off from my LR with tongs and not have to stir up the sand. <Would work
fine.> Because as you know if you suck to close to the sand you end up sucking
up sand as well and I don't want to do that. The last question I have is my tank
has already gone through a phase where I had brown algae and now it has turned
green in the tank is this normal? <Yes> I believe it is from all of the books
and forums I read on this web site. Also can you all give me a good web site to
go to that has detailed info on how the Nitrogen cycle works and the steps your
tank goes through from beginning to end and also charts and pictures of what it
looks like in these stages. <Don't know of one with everything you are looking
for. Can start here
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwestcycling.htm and see where it
leads you.>
Thank you for all of your help!
Jeff
<Chris>
Chlorine Poisoning? (12/24/2003)
Dear Crew, <Steve Allen tonight>
I did a search on your website and found an article on chlorine poisoning but it
didn't quite answer my question. My question is - can a fish recover
from exposure to excess chlorine? <sometimes> After acclimating
a newly bought fish by slowing adding tank water to his bag, which was floating
in the quarantine tank I netted him out of the bag and put him in the
tank. After about 2-3 minutes he turned upside down and sank to the
bottom. I quickly netted him out and put him in one of my established
tanks. Twenty-four hours later he is still alive but just barely. He
lies on the bottom not moving unless I gently touch him with the
net. <Not very hopeful> If the damage to his system
is permanent I will put him out of his misery, if he could recover from this
insult I'd leave him alone and let him heal. <Impossible to predict with
certainty.>
I am positive it is from chlorine. If it is of any importance I can
explain why in another email, but for now, please assume it is from chlorine
<okay, but this sounds mysterious. You're sure it isn't something else like
ammonia?> and if you are able to provide an answer to my question
I would be most appreciative. It is my fault that this fish is
suffering and if there is no hope for him, the least I can do is to end it for
him.
Thank you, Judy
<Judy. You mentioned nothing about whether this is FW or SW or what kind of
fish it is or anything else about the size of or conditions in your
tank. This makes it more difficult to answer your question. Suffice it to say
that a fish that has been lying on the bottom for >24 hours and only barely
responds to touch is highly unlikely to live much longer. On the other had, it
doesn't really sound like it's suffering so you could wait it out a bit. I jut
hope you didn't introduce some pathogen into your display tank by plopping him
in there. Hope this helps.>
"Prime" smell
Hello, I have a question about "Prime" dechlorinator manufactured by
Seachem. I've read on here that dechlorinators that have a formalin smell are
not to be used. I don't know what the smell is, but Prime has a pungent
odor. Also, it says that it provides a slime coat. I also read on this site
that a dechlorinator that causes a slime coat is not necessarily a good
thing. Is this a good product? I like the way it doesn't cause my protein
skimmer to go nuts like Amquel does. Thank you, and I look forward to hearing
from your advice. Gary <Hey Gary, my experience with dechlorinators is the
cheaper they are the better they are. Dechlor is a great one and it's very
cheep. I don't think Prime is going to bother your tank, but from now on go for
the cheap stuff! Good Luck, LinearChaos> <<A note re DeChlor...
this sodium thiosulfate (aka hyposulfite) product is ONLY useful for chlorine...
it will NOT detoxify chloramines (which almost all municipalities utilize)...
nor do anything else. RMF>>
Rotten Egg smell from Novaqua and Amquel Plus ?
Hi Crew,
<Mario>
Back in January, I purchased online a bottle of Amquel plus and Novaqua by Kordon.
I used them for the first time on a routine water change on Wednesday (Mar. 16), and did not notice any
smell then.
But, when doing another water change today (Mar 19), I notice both bottles after being opened had a rotten
egg- like smell that also filled the room.
<Don't use these... They have "gone bad"... should be returned to your dealer, ultimately to Kordon/Novalek for testing....>
Also, when I put the lid back on the bottles the smell was still on the bottles, but an hour later the smell
has diminished from the bottle with the lid on. But, if I open them the smell is there again.
<Yes... biological, microbial in origin... "Critters" are living on some of the organics in the products>
I keep both bottles in a cool place in the bathroom with the others, away from any heat or drafts.
In the past I used Start Right by Jungle, and this product did not have any smell.
There is no expiry date on the bottles. I noticed the drops that I add to the replacement
water does not make the water smell. In other words, I have not odor coming from the
water.
Is this smell normal? Even if the smell is not in the replacement water can it do harm to the fishes or
plants? Should I continue using them if the smell continues?
Thanks,
Mario D.
<Not normal, Dangerous, should NOT be used. Should be returned to manufacturer through your source. Bob Fenner>
Dechlor?
Hello Bob,
I have enjoyed your book and have found it very informative. Thank you very much
for taking the time to help all of us wanna bes out here.
<A pleasure, and an honor to do my part>
I am currently setting up a reef tank and had a question about the product
DeChlor for removing chlorine from tap water. I just purchased a R/O system and
intend to us it religiously. Anyway, I accidentally added too many drops of
DeChlor per gallon. When squeezing the bottle to get drip a small stream briefly
came out into about 10 gallons of water. Almost, impossible to know how much. I
was mixing the salt in the tank, again starting a new tank. There isn't any life
in the tank yet. I was leaving the salt water to circulate for a couple days
before adding the live rock and sand. Should I drain the tank and start over?
Thank you in advance.
<Not to worry... this product is water and sodium thiosulfate (aka
hyposulfite) (by Weco Corporation if memory serves)... and has a very wide range
of safety... Want to mention a few things though... the sanitizer in use almost
everywhere in the U.S. is not chlorine (which "DeChlor" does render
harmless) but chloramine(s) which are not treatable with this product... And,
your Reverse Osmosis unit no doubt has an integral inline carbon contactor...
and otherwise will exclude most all sanitizer... At all lengths, what I'm trying
to say is 1) don't worry about the current circumstance... even if there were
livestock present, 2) No need to use this product or actually anything if your
source water is running through the R.O.... 3) And most important to mention: do
read over the "Treating Tapwater for Marine Use" section and
accompanying FAQs posted on my site: www.wetwebmedia.com re a protocol for
pre-mixing synthetic seawater.
Be chatting, Bob Fenner>
Dan Hutchings
Dechlorinators
I have read through your information on the web site, and I can't figure out if
the stuff I use is pseudo or not. I use Kordon's AmQuel - which does say it
removes Ammonia, Chloramines, and Chlorine in "one step," but it
doesn't smell like formaldehyde (I don't think). I couldn't find any reference
to poly-vinyl compounds. I have used it to remove Ammonia and have tested
afterward, and it did remove the ammonia according to the test kit. I am just
worried because it says "one step" on it and I don't want to hurry my
tank inhabitants.
Thanks,
Steve
>>
Hmm, well this Kordon/Novalek product is "the real thing"... no
formalin, formaldehyde... and does contain PVP. Use it and enjoy.
Bob Fenner
Water Conditioner
Bob....
Good morning!! I have another question. I have been using a product called Nova
Aqua <sic, Novaqua by Kordon Corp.> to treat my tap water for water
changes in my reef tank for the last 2 years or more. I noticed last night that
this product claims to neutralize iodine.
<Yes, all halogens>
Isn't it true that corals need to have iodine??
<Yes.>
So, does this mean that I have a great iodine deficiency going on??
<Possibly, do you have a test kit for iodine/iodide?>
Should I use a iodine additive, and switch to another water conditioner that
won't neutralize the iodine??
<Not necessarily... much could be stated here... I would instead change
protocols to just storing, aerating new synthetic seawater instead of using any
dechloraminator... the others sold in the trade do this same thing, some in
different ways>
How much iodine should be added and how often?? I have a 37 gallon tank
approximately 1/3 full of live rock.
Thanks,
Pat Marren
<As you can appreciate... the amount to add varies with products,
concentration, format, your biomass, water chemistry... I urge all to administer
iodide only once a week or so on an ongoing basis (perhaps more frequently in
treatments, new livestock... specialized filtration...), and to use a test kit
to ascertain about how much this should be... Many more organisms are harmed
from I2 overdose than lack. Bob Fenner>
Re: Water Conditioner
Bob...
Okay, I will try setting up water before I do a change, but can you tell me how
long it takes for the chlorine to dissipate?? I'm putting it into 5 gallon
buckets. Would it be ok to just put the water into the buckets, and mix the
salts into it before I do the change??
Thanks again,
Pat Marren
<Stated before... please read through the seawater prep. sections on the
website: www.WetWebMedia.com
Bob Fenner>
Re: Water Conditioner
Bob...
If I can get spring water to use (there's a lot of that around here), would that
be a good substitute instead of setting of water?? Pat
<Not necessarily... many possible problems... have you had this tested for
your use as in drinking, cooking, bathing? I would use the municipal water and
treat as I've sent you to on the WWM site... Bob Fenner>
Amquel
Do you have an opinion on the use of Amquel?
<Yes>
I have been using Novaqua as a dechlorinator but it is driving my skimmer crazy
with the stress additive. I am considering just using Amquel since it does not
contain the extra stuff. What do you think? Thanks for your help! :)
<Am a big fan of this fine Novalek product... have used many hundreds of
gallons over the years for dechloraminating tapwater, acclimating livestock. Bob
Fenner>
Elizabeth K. Birdwell
PolyFilter
Hey Bob,
<Steven Pro here this morning.>
Thanks yet again for your timely answers to my questions, you're an amazing help
to the neophyte aquarists out there. I've been using well water for my tank as
it tested with acceptable levels for everything when the tank was set up, that
is to say there was no ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, chlorine, or any other
substances of note over acceptable levels (including those which should be
0ppm), granted starting off with small amounts is a hindrance over using
distilled or R/O water. I still treat the water for chlorine just in case
though. Recently however, my tap water has tested quite high for nitrates,
between 50-100ppm.
<Ughh!>
Distilled water isn't an option unless I distill it myself due to some issues
with the local stores in the remote town I live in,
<Distilled water is never an option to me, too much of a risk of metal
contamination.>
and since this isn't my house, an R/O unit or de-ionizer seems to be out of the
question as well.
<RO and DI units made for the aquarium industry are completely portable. I
can see no problem with either one of these.>
I've got live rock and good circulation, which keeps the nitrate at around 50ppm
steady, and so far everything in the tank seems to just be acclimated to high
nitrates since presumably it went up over the time between when I started the
tank and now.
<Not necessarily. It takes a long time for most problems to manifest
themselves and in some instances once you see a reaction it is too late.>
I'm currently toying with building a denitrification coil. I understand that
they can require a lot of adjustment but that's something I'm willing to take
time out to do daily if it will.
<Anthony's "Book of Coral Propagation: Coral Gardening for
Aquarists" has a section on denitrating coils and remote DSB's.>
My question is, in the mean time, will the addition of a PolyFilter or two help
reduce the nitrates in the water to acceptable levels?
<Perhaps. They will also help to remove many of the dissolved organics which
are associated with high nitrate levels. Aggressive protein skimming should help
too.>
Some places I've read seem to indicate they will in fact pull nitrates out of
the water, others say the opposite.
<I would have to defer to the good people at Poly-Bio-Marine.>
I don't have the option of growing mangroves or Caulerpa, or the use of a deep
sand bed in a sump/refugium as I only have room for the tank I have now, once
again owing to this not being my house and me not being able to get rid of some
of the extra furniture clogging up good aquarium space. Would it be more
effective for me to tear the tank down and start a DSB as opposed to using the
denit coil?
<Your best option is to clean up your tapwater first. Then skimming and a
DSB, IMO.>
I've read through a lot of the FAQ's on your site regarding tap water, treating
water, so on, as well as things on other sites and none really seem to address
what to do if tap water is more or less your only option and it's high in
nitrates.
<It really is never your only option.>
Any advice would be much appreciated, as frankly, I'm stumped on what direction
to take at the moment. Thanks, Josh Yanny
<You are welcome. -Steven Pro>
Removing Chlorine from Tapwater
Bob, I noticed you mentioning pseudo dechloraminators; I'm wondering if
Seachem's Prime is one, or if it's a genuine dechloraminator.
<No, should be fine.>
My LFS does not stock Amquel, but Prime is common around here (Sydney,
Australia), but your article on treating tapwater has me concerned, as I don't
want to waste money on something that doesn't work and will cause my fish harm.
Cheers, Poe
<The bad ones are usually super cheap and found predominantly in the pet isle
of grocery stores and such. There are a whole bunch of good conditioners;
Kordon's Novaqua and Amquel, Tetra's AquaSafe, Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Stress
Coat, and many others I am probably forgetting. If you have seen any of these,
you will notice they are all somewhat thick and slimy from the colloids. -Steven
Pro>
-New Amquel!-
Hey there Crew, <Hola, Kevin here> I was at PetSmart today and saw a
bottle of Amquel+ with a sign that said "new" on it. <*Gasp!*>
The bottle states that this new Amquel will remove ammonia, nitrite, nitrate,
and still remove chlorine and chloramines. Any news/experience with
this product?
<Sounds like something handy to have in the event of a tank disaster, but not
something that you should depend on. If your tap water contains those toxins,
then yes, it would be a fine product to use. Good luck! -Kevin>
-More on Amquel plus -
Kevin:
The key point with the new Amquel Plus is that it supposedly will not drop the
pH when added to a saltwater system the way the old kind did.
<Excellent, that's definitely a good improvement!>
I learned from bitter experience that even the recommended dose of the old
Amquel causes a potentially catastrophic decrease in pH (several tenths). It
turns out that it says so in microscopic print right on the label.
<Same thing that happens when you ship livestock, as the water becomes more
acidic and the ammonia level increases, the low pH detoxifies it.>
The huge pH drop stresses the already ammonia-affected fish even more and kills
inverts outright-been there, done that. I completely agree with you that one
should not depend on a product like this to control ammonia. It is an
emergency-use product only, not a substitute for maintaining high water quality
by proper tank-keeping methods. I'll keep some Amquel Plus around just in case,
but hope to never actually need to use it. BTW, AmmoLock 2 allegedly does not
lower pH either.
<So something in it binds with the ammonia to detoxify it; I wonder what it
becomes...>
Thanks for your WWM service, Steve Allen.
<You're very welcome, have a spectacular evening! -Kevin>
-Amquel plus: more info-
Kevin:
Since you asked, I checked the Kordon Website & got the following:
<Oh, very cool!>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The active ingredient in Amquel is known chemically as sodium
hydroxymethanesulfonate, HOCH2SO3Na. The active part of the molecule can be
graphically represented as:
The hydroxymethane- end of the molecule reacts with ammonia to form a non-toxic,
stable water-soluble substance which is acted upon by biological filtration.
This reaction effectively removes the toxic ammonia from solution. Even in water
of low pH (<7.0) the above reaction proceeds to completion. This is because
even at pHs below 7.0 there is always some "free" ammonia (NH3) and
the Amquel will scavenge it from the water. This is why Amquel works faster at
higher pH's and in saline waters.
The substance formed is stable, and testing has shown that even after weeks in
an aquarium without a biological filter, the ammonia is not released back into
the water. Also, unreacted Amquel is stable, and unless removed with water
changes or granular activated carbon it will be available to react with ammonia
until it is exhausted in the water to which it was added. This is why Amquel has
proven so useful in shipping fishes.
The -sulfonate end of the Amquel molecule reacts with both free-available
chlorine, known properly as hypochlorites (OCl-) and combined-available chlorine
(chloramines). In the first instance nothing more than harmless chloride ions
(Cl- ) are produced, and in the latter instance chloride ions are formed and the
freed ammonia instantly reacts with the hydroxy-methane end of the molecule.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The attached picture shows the reaction. The site also warns of the sudden drop
in pH with Amquel and recommends Amquel Plus to avoid this. As you correctly
point out, lower pH detoxifies the ammonia. However, this occurs gradually
during the shipping process. <That it does, lucky fish.> The pH drop with
Amquel is sudden (a double dose, as the bottle states one can give, dropped mine
from 8.2 to 7.5 in minutes. <Not so fun> That can't be healthy for any
marine life.
<Thank you Steve for this info, will post for everyone to see! -Kevin>
Steve Allen | |
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