Acrylic Aquariums 1/14/07... circ.
I
appreciate your response there. There are so many things and questions
running through my head and I just thought hmm I think some outside
influence might help here.
<Absolutely, glad to be of service.>
Anyhow, so back to the pumps. The closed loop system for me wouldn't be
as optimal. I'm inclined to use power heads but I read all about them
adding too much extra heat and this and that.
<Likely of little
concern here>
As of right now my sump doesn't sit under the aquarium
so much as next to it. (I wish I had thought about that before I
purchased the stand) As for the head on the return I'd say there's
probably 4 feet plus of tubing on the way from the sump pump to the
aquarium, how much does that take off my GPH if it's at 748gph at 0
head?
<Head loss is calculated with not only the length of the run,
but more importantly the distance vertically from the pump to the
return. See the calculator here for more help:
http://www.reefs.org/pumps/>
And since I'll most likely have to
spring for the power heads in tank, can you recommend anything? Nothing
too powerful but enough to create the proper flow within the tank. I
forgot to mention the object is to create a reef setting. Thank you in
advance.
Jason
<I think a couple of MaxiJet 900's or 1200's will
likely serve your tank well, with a minimal of heat addition. The 1200's
will provide a bit more flow, but at a higher electricity usage (and
subsequently, likely more heat production). The 900's should be fine
here. -JustinN>
Water flow in the Reef Tank - 10/24/05
I
just wanted to say thank you, to everyone.
<I’ll say “You’re
Welcome!” for everyone, Hello Aaron.>
I purchased 2 Tunze stream
pumps (6000's) and the multi-controller and I noticed a huge improvement
in water quality.
<Yes water flow is important and the Tunze streams
definitely are first class in delivering it.>
Now, I'm wondering if
I should buy 2 more, or if they are strong enough for a 180 gallon
tank?
<Depends on the livestock, for SPS you could definitely
benefit from one or two more. Personally I’m a HUGE fan of lots of water
flow in any kind of tank.>
I'm using a Little Giant with a manifold
that splits the return, it's a LifeReef system, I believe the pump is
rated at 1400 gph at 0 head, split and traveling from the sump, I
probably see 300-400 on each side. If I added 2 more Tunze pumps (is it
ton-ze or toonz?)...
<The latter I believe but don’t quote me on
it.>
would that be too much?
<I don’t think so, though if you
have a DSB it may be difficult to maintain with all this flow.>
I
think the 6000's are 1850 gph at max flow, but the controller pulses
them, which seems to be more beneficial, am I wrong here?
<No,
turbulent water flow is better than linear water flow.>
If they run
full blast all the time it makes swimming a bit problematic for the
fishes.
<Yes but they will adjust. Even with all that water flow its
nothing compared to the “real” reef.>
I do keep some varieties of
SPS corals, and they seem ok- I was just wondering if adding 2 more
pumps would be too much? See, I figure if one pump is on at a time, and
it pulses between 60 and 100% every 2 second, then after about 15
seconds the other pump comes on, I know it's not 1850x2 but it’s really
not just 1850 either is it, because a huge volume of water is moving
towards the opposing pump as it switches on- ok,
<Having pumps face
opposite each other is fine, it makes the water flow less "predictable”
and more turbulent, a good thing.>
I'll stop, sorry, is 2 more too
many?
<I don’t think so.>
Thanks and have a good one!
<You
too!.>
Thanks,
<You’re welcome.>
Aaron
<Adam J.>
Reef
Flow/Lighting - 10/04/05
Hi All,
<<Howdy>>
Wanted to say
thanks for all the time and money I've saved by using your site,
actually, I've saved more time than money, but hey, you can waste your
time and you can waste your money- we can only get one back right?
<<Mmm, true...easier for some than others...>>
I recently purchased
2 Tunze Stream pumps for my 180 gallon reef, the 6000's and the 7095
multicontroller.
<<Excellent!>>
I thought it might do a better
job at internal circulation than the 2 SEIO's (850's) and 2 Maxijet
(400).
<<duh! <G> >>
My question is 1) are they difficult to
mount, they are smaller than the 4 pumps, but with 1860 gph flow rate,
are these little rails gonna hold them?
<<If you are referring to
the mounting system that comes with the Streams, yes, they will hold
them. I used them on mine, but later built "custom" hangers from
acrylic to better suit my application.>>
Seems like they will fly
off and away, wreaking havoc through out my reef.
<<If assembled
correctly they will hold quite well.>>
I was actually thinking of
mounting the rails to the canopy with bolts.
<<If the canopy is
stationary (i.e. - not "suspended" above the tank) this is possible.>>
Which leads to my second question 2) How deep should I mount them, the
web pictures show them close to the surface- seems a waste if the flow
area is so large, but what do I know.
<<Up to you really. I have
mine (six in all) near the surface to minimize disturbance of my
DSB...works out quite well. I do suggest you keep them a minimum of
about two inches from the surface to prevent cavitations and creating a
"bubble machine.">>
Also, should I hook them up at each end of the
aquarium facing each other, on the corner overflows directed diagonally
at the front glass, or on the overflow's towards each other? The
latter would require a change in aquascaping. Again, the Tunze sight
shows them on one side facing the other directly.
<<My preference is
to have them face each other.>>
Ok, Last January I got on the band
wagon and bought 2 400 watt 20k bulbs, I didn't get the mileage out of
them I was expecting, seems they didn't last, cheesy internet sales.
<<ok>>
I bought 2 Hamilton 10k bulbs and decided to supplement that
with 2 140 watt VHO actinics- where before I used 10k in the VHO fixture
just to offset the utter "blueness". I know that the 10k's are going to
be more intense, and without stressing my corals, what kind of light
schedule should I follow with the new bulbs? Right now the Halides are
on at 8am and off at 7pm, the VHO's are on at 9am and off at
6pm. Should I start at say 8 hours and increase to 10 or 11 over a few
weeks? I think my 20k's were utter Kim she, and I'm thinking Hamilton's
are going to be quite a bit stronger- again, just my opinion, I could be
wrong, am I?
<<The 10K bulbs should be somewhat brighter as you
surmise. Rather than mess with your lighting schedule, I would like to
recommend you get a piece of eggcrate to fit the top of the tank, along
with a few sheets of plastic (fiberglass) window screen of the same
dimension. Throw a couple sheets of the screen on top of the eggcrate
when you install the new bulbs...then remove a sheet every five days
until all are gone. The screen/eggcrate will shade/protect your corals
from the new bulbs and allow you to acclimate all to the increased light
intensity.>>
I know I should have three on a six foot tank, but I
have a low light area in the middle, and a few extra bucks in my pocket!
<<Can place animals with lower light requirements here...>>
Any info
is, as always, very much appreciated. Thanks and have a Happy Rosh
Hashanah!
Thanks,
Aaron
<<Regards, EricR>>
VOLUME
TURN OVER VS. GPH 9/19/05
Ok, I've read a lot of posts on
here and Reef Central and I think I now nearly know everything there is
to know :).
<No such thing>
I have a 75 with a closed loop
manifold (3/4 but the six outlets are reduced to 1/2 and two of them are
running Hydor Flo's) fed by a MAG 12 from my sump. I understand I want
10 to 20 times turnover of the tank volume. I also read a post by
Anthony C. himself that he would like to see (on a similar system) 1200
to 1500 gph going through the manifold. I also read that for 1/2 inch
outlets to be effective there should be about 250 gph through each
outlet. I used the flow calculator and at the entrance to the manifold I
am getting 834 gph. Now, that divided by my 75 gallons gives me a
turnover of 11.1 times per hour which puts me in the 10 to 20 window.
However, that 834 gph divided by the six outlets only gives me 139 gph.
So, my question is this; what is more important? The overall tank volume
turnover, or the gph per outlet? Now none of this takes into
consideration the elbows in the manifold itself. Are the elbows in the
loop horizontal
less restrictive than elbows installed vertical? The
834 is what I am getting at the 3/4 entrance to the 3/4 manifold
(remember the outlets are reduce to 1/2). I have mushroom, candy, and
star polyp corals and would like to stick with these types.
<For the
kinds of coral you are keeping, this will be sufficient, but I would
still double it if possible. For corals, 20x+ is a good target to aim
for> Thank you
<Anytime - M. Maddox
Water Flow/Outlet Size And
Closed Loops - 09/04/05
Hello Again,
<<Howdy>>
So happy
you guys are there!
<<And happy to be here!>>
I just tested my
system and am not happy with my return water flow.
<<uh oh>>
I
have a Mag 36 in the sump returning water to the tank by 1" line thru
back upper drilled hole in tank, this then goes to 3/4" loop around the
top of tank and completes a loop.
<<ok>>
I have 7 'T' outlets on
this loop. Only the first outlet gets any good flow, the rest slowly
get less as it goes around the loop. I have about 10 ft. of head, even
with that I should have 1800 gph. Did I hook it up wrong. I have 3
1.5" outputs going to sump with horizontal skimmer box, the flow seems
to be there because the outflows are working good.
<<I have no doubt
the flow "volume" is there...the problem is in the application. To have
sufficient "force" to be effective, a 3/4" outlet on a closed-loop
requires from 600-700 gph of flow...conversely, a 1/2" outlet requires
only about 300 gph. Assuming your flow calculation is correct, you only
have enough flow for three 3/4" outlets...at best. To keep from having
to cap off the majority of your outlets, use reducer bushings to reduce
the outlets to 1/2" and employ a maximum of 5 or 6 outlets.>>
Thank
you in advance, Dan P
<<Regards, EricR>>
Pump prefilter
9/1/05
Bob,
You were right about my knowledge on the venturi
system. I bought a Kent Marine Venturi tube and hooked it up to the
discharge of my pump. Like magic my Turboflotor is working great.
<Ahh, glad you solved that mystery>
I now have a question about
something I am considering trying, and have found no mention of anyone
else doing on this website or any other. My problem is that I still get
some bubbles coming back from my sump to my main tank.
<Not
uncommon>
I have the over/under/over baffles and that still allows
some to enter the pump intake ending up in my tank. The only way I have
found to stop them is to put the prefilter that came with the pump
(MagDrive 9.5) on the intake. I've been cleaning it out really well once
a week, but it still concerns me.
I was wondering if you or anyone
you know has ever tried to cut a filter pad to the shape of the plastic
intake guard of a pump. I know that the filter pad would have a smaller
pore size which will decrease the flow into the pump.
<... and be
real trouble if it gets "too" clogged, or sucked in!>
I think that
the smaller width of the filter pad will end up making the pressure drop
through it just about the same as the prefilter the pump came with.
<Likely more>
On a side note I am also planning on putting a filter
sock on the overflow coming from my tank into my sump.
<A much
better idea... these pumps are almost all made to "push, not pull"...
are centrifugal... Not a good idea to restrict intake...>
Thanks in
advance for any suggestions or advice against doing so.
Cory
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Saltwater Fish-Only Circulation 8/31/05
Hello!
<Hi!>
I have just started a 140G FO tank (36" x 30" x
30"). I am not planning to house any inverts like Anemones in the tank.
The only water circulation is currently provided by an EHEIM 2217
Canister filter i.e. 1000l/Hr. Do I need more water circulation in the
tank by adding more powerheads? If yes of what capacity? What would be
the purpose of these powerheads in a FO tank. Regards
<That
particular Eheim model only produces roughly 250 gallons per hour. This
unfortunately will not provide proper water circulation in a system of
your size. You can utilize two to four large powerheads roughly 700 to
1200gph per pump. Look into Gemini, TOP, Tunze or Hagen which all
manufacture larger powerhead/pumps. Even in a fish-only system, your
goal should include good water circulation. I highly recommend you
consider adding live rock to the system as well due to the fact that the
Eheim 2217 unit will most likely not provide enough proper filtration
(unless of course you keep your fish bioload down to just a few
small-medium sized fish). Good luck! - Ali>
Circulation In An
8-Foot Tank - 05/26/05
Hey Crew, Ben Here
<<Hey Ben...EricR
here.>>
I'm an Aussie boy and trying to set up a large 8 foot show
tank that will be setup in a show room.
<<Well maybe I'll be able to
help. I have an 8 foot show tank in my showroom (my living room).>>
I know, my dream come true.
<<Mine too <G>.>>
I was hoping I
could get some advice on what the best way circulation would be on this
considering that I can drill holes in the outer glass pieces. I was
going to use a 4 foot (1/4 trickle, 3/4 refuge) for my filtration with
the overflow/s (should I have 1 centre or two in the centres) of the
tank. Will that be enough filtration?
<<Mmm, not sure what you mean
here. If you are talking overflows I would drill for two 2" drains and
use one to feed the sump, the other to feed a closed loop.>>
I have
5 powerheads if the flow isn't enough which would be good to mix up the
flow but don't really look all that good. Considering that this system
will house many corals, I don’t want to skimp out of good flow. Your
thoughts.
<<Agreed...and regular powerheads will have a hard time
providing good random-turbulent flow in a tank this size. Do look in to
a closed-loop flow system:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/pbretfaqs.htm>>
I hope to ask some
more questions later to you guys.
Cheers heaps
Ben
<<I/we
look forward to your queries. Regards, EricR>>
Flow And
Filtration...Not Necessarily The Same - 08/25/05
Good day Crew!!
<<Howdy!>>
Thanks for the site, the bountiful archives, and the
appreciation of proper grammar.
<<You been talkin' to Bob? <G> >>
I admire and appreciate what you are doing for me, and the rest of the
(would be) marine aquarium keepers out here on the world wide web. Good
work, people!
<<I/we enjoy/believe in what we do, but
still...redeeming to hear...thank you.>>
Having said that, my
question to you is, how many times an hour should I turn over water
through my sump vs. through a closed loop system?
<<Two to three
tank volumes per hour through the sump...ten or more (preferably!) tank
volumes through a closed-loop.>>
I know the recommended turnover is
10x - 20x an hour, but does it all need to run through the sump where
the filtration will be?
<<Nope, nor do I recommend/think this to be
practical.>>
Or can I just run my water, say, 5x - 10x times an hour
through my sump (and all of its various components), and the other 10x -
15x in a closed loop?
<<Could...though I still think that's more
than you need going through the sump. Less flow through the sump will
be easier to plumb with less hassle/subsequent noise.>>
Is there an
ideal ratio?
<<Every system/configuration is unique, but the basic
flow rates I listed should work well for most.>>
I can't seem to
find the sentence that says, "An aquarium should be completely filtered
XX times per hour." (Assume I would like to keep delicate and demanding
species, for which flow seems to be most important.) Naturally, more
filtration is better, but I have concerns about my setup, and if I am
going to be limited by flow through filtration, I would like to know
now, so I can stock to accommodate it (or modify the tank to suit my
needs).
<<Flow and Filtration are two different
things. Besides, if we're talking a reef system with live rock, most of
the "filtration" will be going on "in the tank" where, yes, your "flow"
needs to be random, turbulent, and robust (e.g. - 10x-20x tank
volume). 2x-3x tank volume through the sump to supply the skimmer and
maybe some sort of chemical filtration will be just fine.>>
I
recently acquired a used 125 gallon setup. What was included was the
tank, stand, and a canopy equipped w/ 3 175w MH bulbs (and room for some
72" tubes). The tank is predrilled, in the bottom, with a 1 3/4" hole
in each back corner, and of course, with overflow boxes installed
(glass). If I am correct, these holes will accommodate 1" bulkheads,
both of which I plan to have drain to a 55 gallon sump.
<<yes>>
(I think I am correct that the flow out of the display through these
bulkheads can be regulated by the return pump, but I am afraid that due
to the small diameter of the bulkheads, even at max, I will be limited.)
<<yes again>>
By the way, what kind of flow can I expect through
each of these bulkheads? I think I read 300 gallons for return
bulkheads, and 800 gallons per hour for drains. Is this right?
<<I
would plan for no more than 300-350 gph per drain to the sump. This
flow rate will ease any plumbing issues when it comes to eliminating
noise, and provides some measure of safety margin in the event of a
blockage. In fact...I would recommend plumbing only one drain to the
sump (approx. 300 gph submerged return pump), and use the other drain to
plumb your closed loop (1500-2500 gph external pump).>>
The return
will go up and over the back of the tank, as I have seen recommended
several times in the archives to people in similar situations.
<<okay>>
Since this whole thing is still in the planning stages, I
am hoping this input (and a lot of input found in the archives), will
save me heartache and expense, as I do plan to stock only with captive
propagated (hence, more expensive) species.
<<Always good to have
your stocking plan before you build the system so as to tailor to the
organisms needs.>>
I don't advocate loss of life or destruction of
reef under any circumstances, so I am going to thoroughly do my homework
to accommodate any species I consider for captivity in my home, based on
what my system can accommodate.
<<Or...research/pick the species and
build the system to suit...>>
I absolutely will not house an animal
that would otherwise have a home, and will only house one that will be
happy in my home, i.e. there is probably not an anemone in my future.
<<Very good to hear.>>
I am the same way with dogs, getting them
only from the pound.
<<Admirable...but as you say...only if you have
the means to provide...>>
Also, I am quite determined to do this
myself, much to the dismay of the LFS owner, who would just love to come
set this up for me. However, I am afraid that he would abuse my
pocketbook, and betting on my ignorance, some innocent marine animals,
and I can't do it. Besides, I like the challenge.
<<Quite within
your abilities I'm sure...just be sure to stop and think, research, ask
questions as you are now, and above all...take your time.>>
Thanks
for all of your help and expertise that I have already made use of, and
will use in the future. I am looking forward to being an
informed/conscientious marine aquarist (great book, by the way).
Sincerely concerned about adequate filtration,
Jessica Groomer
<<Please do write back in/make use of our extensive archives re tank
setup/close-loops. Regards, EricR>>
"Y" Must I Use a "T"? -
08/18/05
Crew,
<<Tim>>
I've been reading through the
plumbing FAQs but I can't seem to find what I'm looking for.
<<ok>>
I have a Dolphin 2100 pump for my new (still not fully assembled) 135G
reef. I have the tank filled with freshwater for a plumbing test.
<<good idea>>
The 1 1/2 inch discharge from the pump goes vertically
through a coupling, a shut off (ball) valve, to a 1 1/2 Tee. Each side
of the tee goes horizontally to each side of the tank then through an
elbow, a 1 1/2 to 1" reducer, a 1" bulkhead, and a manifold up in the
tank.
<<ok>>
I didn’t really want a Tee to split the flow. It
seems like I'll lose a lot of head that way.
<<Some, yes.>>
I
wanted more like a Y, but I can't seem to find Y's. The closest I have
seen is a sanitary tee, or a three way Y that I could use if I plugged
the center port.
<<Yep...pretty much your choices. There are some
symmetrical polycarbonate "Y" fittings used in wood-shop central
vacuum/filtration systems...but I've never explored to see if these
would be suitable/safe for cementing to PVC.>>
What is the best way
to split the output of a pump two ways??? Is my Tee as good as it
gets? I cant seem to Google the right phrase to find suggestions.
<<Your question is not uncommon, many hobbyists; myself included, have
wrestled with this option. Due to it's uneven/unequal design, the
sanitary-T gives unequal flow...and I feel the 3-way lends itself to too
much internal turbulence with a high-pressure pump, thus reducing
flow. In the end, I've found the best, simplest, and cleanest way is to
go with a standard "T" fitting.>>
Thanks (again),
Tim
<<Regards, EricR>>
DSB
And Pump Returns - 08/17/05
WWM (EricR),
<<Hiya Todd!>>
Thanks again for the great response and all of the previous
suggestions are in the workings as we speak.
<<Hope they prove
helpful.>>
I have a few more questions before I switch my LR and
some tank mates over to the new tank.
<<Alrighty>>
First off
is more of a should I do this question. I am going to put a DSB
instead of my old crushed coral base.
<<Yea! (sugar-fine,
right?)>>
I want 4-5 inches but I am not sure what kind (I would
love the cheap stuff from Home Depot, but its not Southdown and I
don't trust the play sand at my Home Depot), so I was thinking of
the Coral Sea (0.5-1.5mm). The LFS store here suggested some
crushed coral but I don’t really trust them yet especially after
that comment!
<<A "small" amount mixed in wouldn't necessarily
hurt anything, but also affords no benefit so...>>
Do you think
that should do fine and not too messy when I move the rocks around
or add water?
<<My preference for a DSB is sugar-fine aragonite
sand. Sand from other sources is workable, but doesn't provide the
buffering capacity of the aragonite. I'm not familiar with the
Coral Sea product but will assume it is of a marine/calcareous
origin and will likely serve you just fine.>>
Also, should I put
the same sand in my refugium?
<<I would>>
Last but not least
is a question regarding my return lines out of the sump.
<<ok>>
For now I am going to be using a underwater pump (Rio 20, cause that
is what I have for now). I want outflows in all four corners coming
from my sump, if you think this is a good idea?
<<Looking at
your diagram, yes.>>
If so, then do I have one line up from the
pump, place a 'T' at the top of the tank and put one 90 at each
corner...If you look at the tank from the top, it would look like an
upside down 'Y'. There also would be a 'T' at both corners that
would have an outlet then another 90 at both ends for an outlet. I
will send a quick schematic to make it easier for you to understand.
<<it did>>
The other option would be to have two pumps in the
sump. One for each side of the tank (two outlets per pump)?"
<<This second option would be my choice...a bit more
flexibility/gives some measure of redundancy in case one pump
fails.>>
Also, would a 1" PVC pipe do the job (from the pump to
the outlet in the tank)?
<<Considering the small size of the
pump(s), I would use 3/4" pipe with 1/2" nozzles to increase water
velocity (figure 300-350 gph per 1/2" nozzle).>>
Thanks again
and keep up the good work.
Todd
<<Always welcome, EricR>> |
|
Achieving Flow - 08/15/05
I really appreciate your
suggestions. This will get me on the right track.
<<Happy to
assist.>>
I just want to clarify one thing.
<<shoot>>
When
you say about 1000gph or more for flow, does this mean you should have
at least 1000gph of flow through your filtration unit (sump, refugium,
wet/dry, etc) or 1000gph of flow throughout
your tank?
<<Throughout the tank. I like to put a minimum of flow through my sump
to simplify plumbing issues, and utilize auxiliary methods (closed-loop,
powerheads, etc.) to achieve overall flow rates.>>
Whether it is
500gph through your filtration unit and 500 through powerheads/closed
loop?
<<Ah, yes...you got it!>>
Thank you again and you cats get
a two thumbs up on this end of the Rockies. Keep up the great web page
and if you ever need a neuro question answered, let me know I might be
able to help.
Todd
<<Now "that's" a query we don't see every day
<G>. Cheers, EricR>>
Total "turn" in reef tanks 8/13/05
Joe, I agree in the fact that turning 3000gph through a sump not
designed to be effective at 3000 gph is not a good thing. Example
being, you buy a sump rated for a 180, then pump 3000gph through it,
dramatically decreases it's biological capability due to a very short
contact time. James (Salty Dog).
However, while
reading the various different messages, I've become aware that, for
larger amount of turn, suggestions are to avoid turning through the
sump. Can you pin that down a bit? For example, in an aquarium turning
10 times an hour, XX through the sump, XX through the manifold?
><Joe, the total turn should equal 10X the tank size. This is a total
of sump, powerheads, etc. If the sump and pump were sized
correctly.......say 500gph, then, in a hundred gallon tank, an
additional 500gph of flow would be needed. Hope this helps. James
(Salty Dog)>
James, I recall reading that there may be a point at
which, if turn is going through the sump, it's not a good thing. The
observations were subjective. Any thoughts?
A 300 gallon tank
running 3000 GPH through its sump?
Joe.
Quick circulation
question/advice request 8/11/05
Good morning:
Scenario: a 75
gallon reef in progress (LR, some F, some inverts coral) serviced by:
Remora Pro, Eheim 2213 and a couple of powerheads (Rio 400 + Maxijet
600) for additional circulation. No sump or refugium (yet! :) ).
Occasional polish as needed via a Diatom filter.
I'd like to
eliminate the PHs and possibly the 2213. Can I replace either or both by
installing a water return manifold?
<Yes>
If so am I better off
with a submersible or an outside pump and for this size tank,
<Outside>
with the desire to increase my invert and corals, what
volume?
<As much as practical... twenty times capacity a good
number...>
With enough flow and keeping the skimmer can I get rid of
the 2213?
<Yes>
Are Turbelle streams too powerful for this size
tank?
<Maybe...>
Your advice always appreciated!
Charles
<Thank you for sharing. Bob Fenner>
SW circulation
08/08/2005
Bob (or other WWM crew member), I had a follow up
question to my fish introduction order one. In my 100 gallon I have a
Tunze 6080 (2200 gal/hr I think) and a Mag-Drive 9.5 (about 600 gph) in
my sump acting as a return pump. The Mag-Drive is split into three
outlets each aimed at the base of my live rock to increase flow in that
area. The Tunze is about 1/3 of the way down my tank blowing across the
top of the rock. I don't see any accumulation around the rocks and there
seems to be good flow. I have been told that because the Tunze spreads
the flow out so much that I may want to consider a second one farther
down in the tank actually pushing water through the live rock. I feel
that my flow is adequate,
<Me too>
approximately 2600 gph, which
turns of my tank 26x an hour. Do you think this setup is adequate or
will I need more?
Thanks again,
Rick
<I would not add more
here. Bob Fenner>
Total "turn" in reef tanks 8/4/05
Dear crew,
I've seen various statements of recommend "turn"
throughout WWM, and am familiar with the recommendations for reef tanks
(6X plus, more being better). However, while reading the various
different messages, I've become aware that, for larger amount of turn,
suggestions are to avoid turning through the sump. Can you pin that down
a bit? For example, in an aquarium turning 10 times an hour, XX through
the sump, XX through the manifold? <Joe, the total turn should equal
10X the tank size. This is a total of sump, powerheads, etc. If the
sump and pump were sized correctly.......say 500gph, then, in a hundred
gallon tank, an additional 500gph of flow would be needed. Hope this
helps. James (Salty Dog)>
Joe Kraska
Alternative for
Carlson surge devices, new product proposition 7/25/05
Guys,
<Dave>
I think I know how to build a surge device for MUCH smaller
tanks. I have seen Carlson surge devices and they said about 150
gallons is the smallest practical value. I think I can make a surge
device guaranteed to work for any size/flow rate you want.
<Okay>
I think...
I don't know anything about aquarium work and what
parameters would you need for a surge device.
<Mmm, most all types
of systems can/will benefit from the added volume, type of water
movement...>
I have made them very small and slow. I have a few
practical working models that deliver 2 liters of water per a surge. I
think I can size up the concept to anything but I need some data on
target numbers.
Obviously, you would use a header tank and gravity
to build the surge. This would be the kind of thing you screw into the
bottom of a large reservoir/header tank to hold the surge and then add
enough discharge pipe to get the kind of surge needed. The cycle rate
is determined by pump flow rate and gallons per surge.
A 10 GPM pump
would surge twice per minute if you dropped 5 gallons per
surge. Various overflows could be added to ensure safe return of water
in case of device failure (which will be rare. It is pretty simple and
reliable).
Assume you want to make a reef in a 25 gallon tank for
this example.
1) How often do you surge?
<... once, twice,
maybe thrice a minute...>
2) How many gallons are released for each
surge?
<... depends on how many you want... I would guess somewhere
between ten and twenty percent of system volume>
3) How high up
would a header tank need to be over the tank to get the right surge
rate?
<Just above it>
4) How much would you pay for such a
device if you were a tank owner? Is there a market for this kind of
gizmo and how many do you think would sell in a year?
<Te gazillion
dollar question... currently, very few folks (less than a tenth of one
percent) utilize such a device>
5) What if the reef tank was 10
gallons instead of 25? How would the above numbers change?
<Am sure
they will... most folks with smaller systems have less money...>
Are
smaller reef tanks more popular or would they be with a small surger?
<Much less popular>
I need to use these numbers to size the release
mechanism. Your help and experienced estimates or guesses to the above
are appreciated.
-Dave
<Best "advice" to you... build some
models, ask local stores if they will allow you to demonstrate them on
some of their systems... with tags, logo on the product identifying who
you are, where they can buy them... save up and place an ad in the
national pet-fish mag.s... see if folks respond... Bob Fenner>
Tunze Stream 7/25/05
For in-tank flow, do you think one or two of
the product below would be far too much turbulence for a 90 gallon? It
seems like a great product – too bad they don’t make the same thing with
a little less flow…. <Jon, the Tunze are very well built pumps but I
think it's a little overkill for a 90. As long as the output is
controllable as I see it is, then it will be fine. If you upgrade to a
larger tank, the pump should handle a 180 gallon tank. The other
benefit is low wattage which helps keep your temp down. James (Salty
Dog)>
Turbelle ® Stream 6000 :
* Output: 7000 l/h; 1850 gal/h
* Speed control: Yes
* Electronically controllable by all TUNZE ®
motor controls
* Pump wattage: 15 W
* Cable length: 5 m; 196"
* Dimensions: ø 98 x 118 mm; ø 3.9 x 4.6
* Outlet diam.: ø 50 / 47
mm; ø 2" / 1.8"
Flow rate 7/21/05
Hello great site my
question is I have a 75gal I am going to have drilled. I was thinking
two 2'' holes in the back of the tank 12 " apart near the top, with a
inside horizontal flow box that would run into a 30 gal sump. 2- 1
1/2''holes in the two upper back corners for returns. what kind of flow
rate will I be looking at.
<Mmm... I would use smaller return lines,
a larger sump if you can fit it... maybe two if you want to have a
biological sump (refugium)...>
Will this be too much, I read so much
about bigger is better. One more question please. How would I construct
a closed loop for this.
<... please read here: oh, wait...>
I
have read all your info but I cant get in my thick skull. thanks again
your site is the best info in the world. Oh I forgot I want A FOWLR with
reef in the future.
Dan p
<Dan, please have
someone or your computer proof your correspondence... we don't want to
look ignorant... Go back and read the pertinent parts on WWM re your
questions... they are covered there. Bob Fenner>
Flow rate
question 7/14/05
I am setting up a new 1000L fish only salt
water tank. The filter will be a sump type around 200L. As I wish to
use a Eheim circulating pump, the biggest pump available at my Eheim
retailer is a 1262 which is rated for 3400 LPH. Also included will be a
Aqua- Medic PH2500 to power the protein skimmer. Do you think I will
need extra flow for this set up? If extra flow is required, please
advise how best to do.
<I generally recommend an absolute minimum
flow within the aquarium equal to five times it's volume, with ten times
being even better. This means that you should have between 5000 and
10000L/hr of flow. The easiest way to accomplish this is to add a
second Eheim pump used within the aquarium for water movement only. Any
similar submersible pump would also be suitable. The pump for your
skimmer does not contribute to this total. Best Regards. AdamC.>
Flow rate follow up 7/20/05
When you state to use an extra pump,
would this mean 2 Eheim pumps side by side in the filter sump connected
to a tee piece or to fit 2 power heads in the main display tank? I have
2 spare Aquatic 1500 power heads if needed, and also 2 rated at 3000.
Eheim only have powerheads up to 650 LPH at my stockist. If there is a
option I would opt for the power heads. Thanks for your time and
information provided. Best Regards, Alan
<I meant to use the second
Eheim in the tank as a powerhead, but if you have other spare
powerheads, they will work just fine. Best Regards, AdamC.>
Water Flow 30 Jun 2005
Hi I love this site and have been looking
through some of the question and answers and decide to ask you guys
myself. I am in the process of planning on setting up a 95 gallon
36x24x25 gallon SPS and clam tank. I was wondering on flow and what I
should use to get the most flow and random flow as well. I want to do
this right the first time and not waste money. What I take from reading
is I need to get at least 10x turnover. <Yes> Should I get a sequence
external dart pump or are there others out there that are better? I
also want to get random even flow for the corals, I guess the most
natural flow. I have read some about the Tunze system but seems a
little pricey. Would the closed loop or the manifold that I found on
this site actually be random enough to put out the water at different
times around the tank? Or would the pump just continuously put out the
same flow at all outlets at the same time? Or should I go the expensive
way and buy two 3/4 sea swirls and put them in the corners and get
random flow that way? Or maybe one 1" in one corner of the tank. I
appreciate any feedback you have on this problem. Thanks <Mason, I
would recommend the Aquarium Systems Maxi-Jet Natural Wavemaker
System. The model 1200 includes the timer and three 295 gph powerheads
for $99.99. Not too pricey and I think it would be adequate for your 95
gallon system. Drs. Foster & Smith sells these kits. James (Salty
Dog)>
- Water Circulation -
Hi Bob,
Quick
question regarding water circulation in a 150 gal, SPS only tank.
How do you compare to the Tunze stream to the SeaSwirls, assuming they
have the same outflow of 1200 gal/hour. Thank you.
<Think it's six
of one, half a dozen of the other. The Sea Swirl obviously is not a
pump, so you need more hardware to implement these, but the folks I know
that use them, love them. I personally have the Tunze stream pumps and
think they're just as viable a solution. I'd say it depends on your
setup and how much hardware you want to see in the tank. I think at the
end of the day they'd both end up costing about the same to implement.
Cheers, J -- >
- Water Circulation, Follow-up -
Hi
there,
<Hi.>
I will be having a closed loop for my 150 gal tank.
Planning to use an outside pump of 1500 gal/h, running 2 SeaSwirls on
each side of the tank.
How high shall I place the pump??? <As close
to the bottom of the tank as plumbing will allow.> Will it be ok if I
place it on the floor or the water pressure will be too much for it???
<It' won't be "too" much, but you'll get better results from the pump if
you try to keep the tubing lengths as short as possible.> I am planning
to drill 1 hole in the glass to be the output and then running 2 PVC
towards the SeaSwirls.
Thanks.
<Cheers, J -- >
SW
circulation, seahorses...
Hello, I have a 2 month old 65 gallon
tank with skimmer, wet/dry, chiller, Coralife lighting HQI metal
halide lighting, a lot of live rock inside my tank I use 1 Rio aqua
pump/power head 2500 it does not seem to be enough movement for top
layer of water and to move about corals towards the center I was
thinking of adding a Seio super flow pump m620 my question is do you
think this is too much current?
<Not too much>
I have 2
Brazilian seahorses to take in consideration?
<Oh... perhaps too
much for these... I would arrange all flow to course along the edges of
the inside of the tank>
Also my tank measures L36" H 19" 1/2 W 18"
has rounded corners. thank you R.G.
<Bob Fenner>
Tank
Drain Size And Overflow vs. Closed Loop - 06/20/05
Hi Crew,
thank you all so much for your website and personal advice!
<<A
pleasure to assist.>>
I'm overwhelmed a bit, but trying to read all
that I can. My original plan was to use a somewhat beat up used tank,
but now I've decided to buy a new 180g tank from www.glasscages.com. I
can have it drilled custom, so I have some important decisions to make
in the next 2 days (have to order first of the week to have it on their
truck coming to Orlando).
<<OK>>
I'm doing a tank
that is viewable from both sides and one end. I think that the whole
"back end" will be totally closed off by the overflow wall. I want to
be able to do 20X flow without powerheads. On my 180g that amounts to
3600 gph through the sump if I don't do a closed loop.
<<Mmm...I'm
leaning towards the closed-loop with a separate return pump for the sump
in the 700-900 gph range.>>
Is it realistic to put that much flow
through a 24" long built in overflow and then run it through a
36x18x17tall sump (I'm ordering that tank also)?
<<Can it be
done?...probably. Would I want to do it?...nope.>>
It seems a
little scary to me!
<<Me too <G>.>>
Will it be too much flow for
a refugium to be incorporated into the sump?
<<Would likely "wash
all away".>>
If I don't pull it all through the sump, I'd need a
closed loop, but I don't have any "back wall" space to drill for a
closed loop. Is it a bad idea to try to do a closed loop that pulls
from the overflow area?
<<Actually, my suggestion would be to pipe
the intake for the closed-loop in through the bottom of the overflow
box, split it in to multiple intakes (2 minimum, 3 or 4 better) all the
same diameter as the pump intake pipe (in other words, don't "reduce"
the size), and plumb these through the sides of the overflow box so only
just the intake screens protrude in to the tank itself. This will
alleviate any concerns of the overflow handling the volume of the pump
for the closed-loop...and the multiple intake ports will keep that 3600
gph pump from "straining" all your critters through the intake
screens.>>
If I don't pull from the overflow, my only other option
is to pull from a standpipe somewhere out in the tank (there is NO
"back" of the tank available for drilling). If I'm pulling from a
standpipe around the middle of the tank, I'm worried that critters and
stuff will constantly be getting trapped against the intake.
<<A
possibility, but can be addressed with more/multiple intake ports to
create a "more gentle" flow through any one port.>>
Next
question - hole sizes. According to the RC calculator, I can get 1400
gph from a 1.5" drain and 2400 gph from a 2" drain. I was planning on
doing two 2" drains and one 1.5" return all drilled inside of the
overflow. That is a lot of flow potential but I'm not sure if I can
pull that much flow over the overflow without it sounding like Niagara
Falls. What is your opinion?
<<Exactly...another reason to go with
the closed-loop for the bulk of your flow. I do like your hole sizes,
bigger is always better...if only for that margin of safety (sooner or
later something WILL restrict/clog a drain.).>>
Also - I may go to
two 1" returns so that I can have two pumps. This seems like it opens
more options as in one pump being a closed loop, and some redundancy in
case I have a problem with a pump, etc. What do you think of that idea?
<<Two returns is fine, but I would use one for the closed-loop and the
other for the sump return (as mentioned previously). As far as diameter
goes, use what is specified for the pumps you will be using.>>
Thanks again for all of your hard work to promote this hobby.
<<Hope this all makes sense. Try some key-word searches of our plumbing
FAQs re "Closed-loop" and "drain size" for additional info.>>
Sincerely,
Randy
<<Regards, Eric R.>>
Water flow for
an 85 gal
Adam,
< Frank >
I appreciate your input on the
questions asked below. Regarding the return pump and your suggestion to
use as big as I can afford. I thought that if I utilized a pump where
the flow rate was too great then you would possibly run into problems
with draining the sump, < That is a potential problem. Most people
avoid that problem by "T"ing off the line so that the pump pushes water
back to the tank, and also back into the sump. >(the Durso pipe drainage
would be slower than the return). Is this why you are suggesting
possible modification of the overflow? < I do like modifications because
I don't think you can ever be too safe in regards to the overflows. All
too often I see them get covered in algae and a disaster is just waiting
to happen. > I was told from members of my club that I should not exceed
1000gph, (to avoid this potential problem). I was thinking of
purchasing a Gen X PCX-30 825gph. < That is probably a good move. I'd
probably go a little bigger just knowing that you'll lose significant
pressure with that 4ft head height. > (I am looking for a quiet external
pump--trying to stay away from heating the water w/submerged pumps).
Also was considering the Blueline BL-800 875 gph, (I was told that this
was the old GenX Mak 3) & Panworld 50PXX-MD30X 1110gph, (was afraid that
the gph might be too high & cause problems w/drainage of the sump). On
your other comments regarding the new Seio super flow powerheads: are
you referring to the model 620 rated @ 620gph & model 820 rated @
820gph, (they offer up to 1500gph)? Would two 620's, (1 on each end of
the tank), be sufficient or should I go with 2 820's? < Well that is a
tough call. I'm using the 820's and I love them. The great thing is
that you really don't get too much direct flow out of them. This allows
for a lot of total flow without blowing your corals over. So I'd say
for an 85 gal I'd use two of the 820's and maybe even more. >
Frank
< Blundell >
Water Circulation !! 06/07/2005
Quick question, what do you think of 2 Hagen power heads, rated at 900
GPH each for a 150 Gal. reef tank??? Any feedback about these new power
heads !!! <Those power heads are ok. They have an adjuster for flow on
them that sometimes does not always work. At least in my case when I
have used them. I would think that at each end of the tank pointed
toward the middle would be a good starting point. Then depending on
what corals you are going to keep that will tell you if you need more
flow>
I heard that Seio power heads are not that reliable on the
long run ,is that true ?? < I have been running a Seio 800, 1100, and
1300 with no problems. I like to use them for mixing salt but in a 75
they seemed like a strange flow. It is a light rolling flow that is
nice but it is really different than other power heads. You will have
to experiment>
Thank you. <Anytime EricS>
Refugium
Hey
Folks:
<Hello, Ben>
I am under the impression that turnover for
the refugium should be slower than the sump system yet adequate enough
to supply o2 and nutrients. IF my assumption is correct what is the
range for the turnover rate?
<Ben, sounds to me like you are talking
about a homemade reef. There really isn't a steadfast rule for flow.
Most manufactured refs have built in baffles to keep the sand/mud, etc
from getting stirred up. Any flow rate from five to ten times the volume
of the ref should be sufficient. Measure LxWxH, divide by 231 to give
you the volume size in gallons, and go from there. James (Salty
Dog)> <<Mmm, actually... sounds to me like the question is about
refugiums themselves... a few turnovers OF the refugium volume itself,
per hour are about prime... 3 to 5 or so. BobF>
Tunze Wavebox
Hello,
<G'morning>
I am about to upgrade to a larger tank; it will
be 225G with ~150 lbs of live rock. I thought I might do this one a
little differently and actually plan all facets of the system design in
advance. Novel idea, eh?
<Heeee!>
Anyway, I am in a quandary; I
have been doing research on water flow and came across a device called
the Wavebox, made by Tunze. I haven't been able to find a lot of
information out there from real people with real experiences.
<Good
products, but pricey... more popular in Europe... elsewhere where the
economy/currency isn't so destroyed>
Has anyone that you are aware of
used this?
<Yes... a few here. More overseas>
If so, any opinions?
<A good unit for producing reasonable, oscillating water movement in
good sized systems... just the cost to purchase... about five hundred
dollars... a bit steep>
Regardless of any first or second hand
experiences, do you see any reasons why I would not want to use this?
<Mmm, no... the usual risk, caution re positioning, screening to prevent
slow-moving life from being "sucked in">
Are there any types of
corals, inverts, or fish that may not like this type of movement?
<Mmm, no again>
(if the list is long, you can be general) One thing I
would like to add, however, is that my goal in doing this would be to
avoid the use of powerheads altogether. (with the exception of the
return pump) Do you think this is a reasonable objective?
<Sure>
Here are a couple of links to information on the device:
http://www.tunze.com/Interzoo-Neuheiten-2004/Wavebox.html
- and
page 4 of this document:
http://www.tunze.com/Interzoo-Neuheiten-2004/Flyer%202004/Flyer_2004_E_USD.pdf
Thanks,
Dave
<Thank you for writing. Tunze's powerheads are a
"gold mine" for folks who need/want large water movement... Am a bigger
fan of external "manifolded" circulation systems myself... for
functional and aesthetic reasons. These are gone over and referenced on
WWM under "Circulation" in the root/marine web. Bob Fenner>
-
Tunze Wavebox -
Hi Bob,
<JasonC this time.>
Thanks for
the response. I did some research on the external manifold method you
recommended and have decided to go this route instead. However, I do
have a question. Is this meant to replace the existing return
pump/plumbing or supplement it? <Either or - some folks use the manifold
for return from the sump, others in closed loops, and still others do
both.>
Thanks again,
Dave
<Cheers, J -- >
Poor water flow on new tank? 5/4/05
I checked the cycling and
algae FAQs and couldn't find my problem specifically answered. I have
recently cycled 30 lbs of Lalo live rock from DFS. My setup is as
follows
20 gal AGA
Hagen Aquaclear 70 powerfilter - with a poly
pad (recent addition), small amount of carbon and live rock rubble in
the box
2 MaxiJet 400 powerheads
CPR BakPak 2R
1 55W blue ,
1 55W 10000K power compacts 10 hour photoperiod
Plan a 15% water
changes every 2 weeks.
<Or more water... I do large weekly water
changes in my small reef aquarium>
I tanked the rock by itself and
allowed it to fully cure - approximately 3 weeks to zero ammonia,
nitrite. I had an enormous ammonia spike that lasted so long (2 weeks)
that nitrites were already on the decline when the ammonia hit zero.
This even with periodic 25% water changes throughout the cycle. I
believe it may have killed anything that was alive on arrival - as I
have seen little evidence of any worms or microfauna in the tank or
substrate, plenty of worm tubes but no worms. The coralline faded quite
a bit but there is still significant coverage in red, pink, purple and
light green that I hope will come back strong.
At the end of the
cycle I did a 50% water change and added approx 1.5 - 2 inches aragonite
sand - half oolitic, half slightly larger. Waited 1 week. I drip
acclimated and added 8 red hermits and 10 snails (Turbo, Astraea,
Trochus). They are keeping the rock and glass clean - but dropping
enormous amounts of excrement all over the sand and rock - do I need to
be siphoning this off regularly?
<Well.. sort of. Please do siphon
it out when you see it. But then again... if you can see it
accumulating, it is a sign that this tank has a serious deficiency in
water flow. All such solids should be kept in suspension for use by
filter feeders, export by skimmers, etc>
Approx 2 days after adding
the cleanup crew - I noticed a slimy substance covering nearly every
plastic surface in the tank - in some places 1/8" thick. A thinner
layer on the back glass. It is mat like and colorless and gelatinous -
looks almost like mucous. The PolyFilter pad was completely impregnated
with it and my skimmer and powerfilter were coated internally on all
surfaces. No algae bloom yet, and water parameters (below) look pretty
good (if not perfect) to me. I cant figure out what this mucous
substance is. I believe that 1 snail may be MIA - I haven't been able
to find all 10 at one time, or all 8 hermits for that matter. Could
this be a factor?
<Its not likely... it really sounds like a lack of
adequate water flow overall>
I removed all the components from the
tank except the rock and substrate, disassembled them and scrubbed them
clean in freshwater -
<Yikes! This did far more harm than good. The
FW killed untold numbers of desirable microorganisms>
practically to
brand new, and performed a 25% water change. The material had to be
physically removed by brush or towel - simply spraying water on it did
little. My water tests using Seachem test kits are as follows:
SG
1.025 - Instant Ocean / Tap water filter
78-80 deg F
Ph: 8.2
Alk: 4.0 meq/l
Calcium: 425
Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate:
Undetectable
Phosphate: 0.05 mg/l (had been dropping slowly since
the addition of the poly pad)
Silicates 4 mg/l (probably a bit high)
I use reef builder and reef advantage calcium/reef calcium to maintain
alk/calc and small doses of reef plus for trace elements.
Its been 2
days - no sign of a major return - but I'm wondering what it was, if I
need to worry about it and how to treat it if so.
<As
with most all nuisance organisms growths... control nutrients.
Aggressive skimming, improved water flow, bigger and more frequent water
changes>
Also- can you recommend a good sand sifter for a 20 gallon
tank, I was considering either a conch, small starfish or cucumber.
<a common serpent starfish might be best>
Should I be dosing iodine
to get the coralline algae going- or will the calcium additions and
water changes suffice.
<For corallines... do use SeaChem's "reef
calcium"... it grows corallines like crazy!>
I plan to add a shrimp
or two and eventually keep mushrooms and soft corals, finally adding 1 -
3 small fish (6-7 inches total) (goby, wrasse, Basslet) over the course
of the next 10 months. Let me know if this sounds properly stocked.
Thanks for a great resource.
<Thank you my friend! Anthony>
Circulation
Hi, <Hello Angel Gurl>
Y'all have great
info. Been reading for quite a while. Brand new first time
fishkeeper. Setting up 50G Oceanic reef 30X21x18 mixed with softies and
LPSs, . Will 2 Seio 620 pumps be too much current. (Almost 25X) I
also have a CPR refugium with a little circulation, and a remora (no
idea what this does to the circulation equation. <Keep in mind the "620"
is liters per hour which boils down to about 160gpm per pump, not too
much circulation and the Remora skimmer really won't change the picture
any. James (Salty Dog)>
Thank you <You're welcome>
Circulation
Sorry to be contrary but the Seio 620 does pump 620
gph (at least according to the dealers and the forums). So I still
wonder if 1240 gph in a 50G is too much flow. Particularly for a
complete beginner. <Mike, I'm thinking these were powerheads. Yes, I
think that would be a bit much. Ten to twelve times tank volume is
usually sufficient. James (Salty Dog)>
Thanks again
Water
Movement Options!
I am planning a FOWLR 225 gal glass tank, but
want to plan for eventually going reef with it. I plan to have a sump
(mechanical filtration/refugium/skimmer) running 5-10x hrly turnover. As
far as display circulation, if you were making this tank yourself, which
of the following options would you go with?
1) Use 2 internal Tunze
stream pump/powerheads opposite ends of tank(72" Length) pointed toward
each other? Do these contribute any significant heat to the tank?
<Minimal, really...>
Any other internal powerheads that do the same
thing as Tunze, but still reliable & less expensive?
<Rio Seio, but
the jury is still out on their long-term reliability. A fraction of the
cost of Streams, though>
2) Attach an exterior pump (behind display
tank back wall) connected to below water line bulkhead on upper back
wall of tank w/output connected to PVC closed perimeter loop w/approx.
10- 3/4" outlets?
<A very nice way to move water, but a large
external pump will contribute more heat to the system and consume more
electricity>
3) What other options or direction would you go with
respect to circulation?
<The manifold idea is great if you want the
external pump. I am a bit partial towards Tunzes, although the cost is
significant.>
4) Would inadequate aeration be a factor in any of the
above scenarios, if so in what way?
<Well, if you had no surface
agitation and the tank was tightly sealed, possibly, but with good water
movement and some surface agitation, I see no real problems. Good luck
on your decision! Regards, Scott F.>
Right Pump for Circulation in
a 75g RR Tank?
Hi Crew,
Thanks again everyone for this great
site...a wealth of information.
<Welcome>
I'm purchasing a
All-Glass 75g Reef Ready Tank with the built in MEGAFLOW overflow (Rated
at 600 gph). I will have a 29g sump/refugium. Distance from pump to
outlet into tank would be around 4 1/2 feet. Possible UV sterilizer in
the mix down the road. Question:
What model/brand/rating of pump
would you suggest be best for nice reef circulation and avoid having to
use any powerheads to do it? Or is this possible?
<Yes, and this is
posted on WWM>
I'm having trouble estimating this. Thank you.
<Keep reading. Bob Fenner>
R/O and circulation info needed
Hi again folks at WWM. It is a pleasure to be in contact with you again.
<Greetings>
First. My tank: 175 gal. reef ( in set up stages still).
I have a closed loop manifold running on the top perimeter of the tank.
It has five port plus one for siphon break. The pump running it is a
Dolphin 2100 with a 1 1/2" outlet. I ran a 1 1/2" flexible PVC to the
top of the tank and I reduced it to a 1" because I wanted the closed
loop to be smaller and not too bulky and taking too much space. I
realized I was going to lose a bit of pressure a the port. Two of the
six ports have an Ocean Current head.
My questions are: My dilemma
is I am not getting enough pressure out of those port. My goal would be
to increase the pressure or flow thru those ports. I Have an additional
pump (Iwaki 40, 1200 gal/hr) I could hook up to the same closed loop.
The big question is where in the plumbing would be best?
<Mmm, what
you propose is not advisable... you can/could "tee" in the new pump
along the existing plumbing... but the pumps would be "working against
each other" and the new one have to pump through a turn pretty much
immediately... better to get/use just one larger capacity (pressure,
volume) pump... And a note re the siphon-break... not a good idea here,
and a final note re the attachment of the diverter heads... won't likely
work unless all discharges are similarly restricted. One possibility...
to use the other pump with just another manifold, dual outlet with the
two diverter heads>
Also How small can the siphon break be to be
effective? Mine is 3/8". Can it be smaller?
<You can try this out...
but... why are you using such? What will happen if power, pump goes out
otherwise?>
Thanks a bunch.
Sincerely, Stephan
<Bob Fenner>
New System- New Ideas...
Dear Bob or Crew,
<Scott F. here
today.>
I have since evolved my plans and settled on 90 Gallon to
upgrade from my 55. All-Glass Mega Flow with Berlin style sump with
AquaC EV 120. I only have to decide agitation and layout. I really like
the Turbelle power head.
<You will not regret Tunze products,
particularly the Stream pumps and controllers. They are of the highest
quality...yes- a bit pricey-but worth it, IMO.>
I was thinking of a
DIY recirc system however I think the Turbelle is very smart approach
and my LFS uses them throughout.
<Again- a great plan, as long as
your budget permits.>
90 Gallon does seem like a small size for these
monsters however I thinking of just one on top in the corner.
<They
do move a lot of water, so sand is sometimes problematic...will require
some thought in terms of layout, etc..
Mt concern is my aquascape. I
have attached a diagram of what I'm planning. My intention is a mixed
coral fish tank. I have attached my layout in ppt and jpg. Your thoughts
please.
Thanks again.
Dale
<Unfortunately, I could not view
your jpg, but If you could re-send, I'd be happy to comment. Best of
luck to you! Regards, Scott F.>
Water Flow questions 4/6/05
Hello folks! I have been wanting to ask: How much flow is too much? Or
maybe, How much of what type of flow is too much?
<Hmmm... difficult
to say, but you obviously already understand that misapplication is a
greater problem than too much quantity. Aiming a 300gph powerhead
directly at a coral from 6" away will be harmful, but a Tunze stream
that produces 1300gph is perfectly safe at several inches away.>
I
keep seeing the Tunze products showing large GPH rates, but after
reading WetWebMedia materials, this product seems to produce a softer
flow and to move more water. In other words, are they raising the GPH by
moving more water as opposed to moving it faster?
<Exactly! The same
concept applies to any kind of use of energy.... the same amount of
energy can move a small amount of water (or air, or mass) very fast or a
very large amount of water (or air, or mass) slowly. Tunze stream pumps
move a very large amount of water through a very large opening at a much
slower velocity than a traditional powerhead.>
I have a 55 gal tank
and have a Wavemaster to 4 Maxijet 1200 pumps. The pumps are OK, but
they don't last too long. I am also concerned about jets of water
hurting inhabitants. This is especially true because of the MJ's
horrible bad suction cups, where the power head falls after a while and
creates havoc in the tank.
<These are common problems. I am partial
to skipping the wavemaker and running the pumps continuously. The pumps
last longer and you get more total flow. Hanging the powerheads from the
tank edge or center brace with brackets or zip ties is superior to the
suction cups.>
In comes the SEIO power head. Tunze is too expensive
for me, and I think their weakest line may be too strong for my tank.
SEIO has a 620 GPH wide and soft flow. I'm thinking two, one on each end
of the tank, opposing of course. Controlled by the Wavemaster.
<I
would run them continuously. The increased total flow is more beneficial
than the randomness. The SEIO is a fine option, although RIO doesn't
have the reputation for quality that Tunze does.>
Is that too much
flow? I have 4 clowns, a yellow tang, a rose anemone, a Sebae anemone,
and 4 peppermint shrimp. More corals in the future sure. But I have been
conditioning this tank for 18 months and I want to keep taking it slow.
<Recommended flow for reef tanks is generally 10x the tank volume as a
minimum and 20x as a good target. I have observed tanks with as much as
50x, and as long as care is taken in how it is applied, it is only
beneficial.>
Also I can attest to the water flow benefits as I turned
off my Wavemaster for a couple of days only to find Cyano creeping up on
me, gone after I restored heavy circulation. I appreciate all your
valuable time, and thanks for any responses. Hugo S.
<Indeed! The
first thing I recommend to folks with Cyano problems is increased flow
and alkalinity! Best Regards. AdamC.>
Water Level Leveling..?
Hi Crew,
You undoubtedly have the finest website I have ever seen.
Congratulations on it. I have a glass Oceanic 55 g corner tank
with corner overflow, connected to a 10 g sump below that has a
Euro-Reef CS6-1 skimmer with a Dolphin 560 pump attached to it. The main
return pump is a MagDrive Model 3 rated at 350 gph. The hose to
the sump from the overflow is 1-1/2" diameter, the corrugated kind that
comes with the setup. My problem is that the water level in the tank
stays at the top of the overflow box, rather than lower, where the
"teeth" are in the overflow. If I remove water from the tank, the water
level in the sump simply drops and the water level in the tank remains
constant, which is a little higher than I want, since it just barely
contacts the underside of the glass at the top. It seems to me that the
MagDrive Model 3 is far from oversized for this tank, and the 1-1/2"
hose from the overflow should be fine (it is not obstructed), so what's
left to check or change? Hope you can help.
<I would try to restrict
the pumps output and see if that changes anything. Sounds like the pump
is putting the water into the tank faster than it's coming out. James
(Salty Dog)>
Water Flow, Not Aunt Flo!
Dear Crew
Hope you are well. Still find your pages a great read! I am
running a small, narrow tank (48 x 18" x 12") with 2 external Eheim
Professional 2 filters - 1 mechanical, 1 wet and dry.
When I
installed the filters I had to cut down the return pipes back into the
tank, almost doubling the pressure of water flow, I guess.
<I don't
believe you would double it.>
The question is, what is an adequate
water flow, and what is excessive? When my fish were smaller, they
seemed troubled by the flow, but now less so. I like the water movement
and aeration caused by the filters, but can one overdo
it?
<In a
tank your size, I would like to see at least 450 gph. This wouldn't be
overdoing it at all. The high flow rate helps to eliminate stagnant
areas in the tank. James (Salty Dog)>
Water Flow - II
Dear James/Salty Dog
Thank you for your instant reply.
<They are
not always that quick due to the email load, but you're welcome.>
I
have checked the output of the 2026 filter at about 210 gallons per
hour, and the wet and dry at about the same, giving a combined flow of
about 420 gallons per hour. Just about what you recommended, though it
seems a lot of water to shift for an old tropical tank person like
myself.
<Not compared to currents on a reef>
Do you think I should
cut an extra 2 or 3 holes in each of the returns? This would return the
pressure to what is expected, and I guess I could send the water towards
a slower spot or two in the tank.
<Your preference, Peter>
Thanks
for taking the time and trouble.
<You're welcome>
Yours - from a
dismally wet England.
<And from an equally dismal Michigan>
Circulation
Hi Bob,
<James for Bob today>
Still learning,
so here's the latest.
Specs: Our tank is 6 ft long, 30 inches high,
180 gal. It's a fish only tank. We have two 1 inch bulkheads, but
apparent we are not getting their full output. We believe our bulkheads
and pump power are adequate, so our issue is 'direction' needing
correction. We have already mounted 1 inch hose over the one bulkhead to
redirect the water along the front viewing pane. Before, it was just
shooting straight into the pane. Wow, what a difference. You can see the
tank getting a nice blast on the one side with lots of oxygen.
Now
for the other bulkhead. It has a 'Mickey Mouse ear' fitting dividing the
flow into 1/2 inch outlets. One head creates a nice water break, but the
other shoots downward slamming water into the corner which adds zero
contribution to the tank.
Q: Do we need the water break? If so, we
can install a directional fitting that would re-route the one head for a
mid range shot on our back viewing pane, leaving the water break as is.
If we don't need a water break, then we were considering removing the
divider and installing another 1 inch hose aiming it along the back
viewing panel at mid range. Is one as good as the other, or opening the
bulkhead for full power the way to go?
<Debi, I think you would be
better off to make a spray bar out of PVC with 1/8 holes drilled at 1
inch spacing and connect it to the bulkhead outlets by way of PVC
fittings. This way you can adjust the angle of the spray, and it insures
total circulation of the system. James (Salty Dog)>
Circulation - Results Follow-up
Thanks James.
<You're welcome.
Glad everything worked out. James (Salty Dog)>
We found these cool
adaptors that look like we can create the same result. They snap over
the bulkhead (just like the mouse ears) and then one snaps to another to
build any length tube which can be bent in any direction (and drill
where needed). They come in different sizes, but unlike the hose, you
can't clamp them, so if they fit, we are good to go. I don't know the
duck head who designed our tank, but we can't follow your suggestion for
the front side because we don't have the clearance between the bulkhead
and viewing panel.
It was darn near impossible to get the hose
installed. I'm sure you are familiar with how thick a hose is for a one
inch bulk head. We soaked it in boiling water and still like trying to
bend a broom handle. That with tight working conditions and it only took
my husband about a thousand tries. He opted not to trust the viewing
panel to hold it in place, so did clamp it.
The hose does kink due
to the bend, but now our flow is running the full length of our tank.
Our silk plants move like real kelp and we really see the unbelievable
difference when we feed the fish. Thanks for letting us know that flow
is the way to go.
P.S. So this is why they call it a hobby. You have
to be able to think out of the box!
Debi Stanley-Viloria
Circulation via Mickey Mouse - Follow-up
To Salty Dog James.
Update: Never mind the snapping adaptors. We don't have clearance. Now,
we've special ordered a plumbing elbow. If it works, we will be able to
exactly build your suggestion. You wrote: "make a spray bar out of
PVC with 1/8 holes drilled at 1 inch spacing and connect it to the
bulkhead outlets by way of PVC fittings."
Q: For 6 ft of tank,
any suggestion on how long the spray bar should be?
Debi
Stanley-Viloria
<Length will depend on the number of holes needed.
For example the area of a one inch pipe is approximately .780 sq inches.
The area of a 1/8" hole is .011 sq inches. So, if you divide .780 by
.011 it equals 70 holes. Now, they don't have to be at one inch centers,
they can be closer to minimize the length of the spray bar. To figure
out the area of your return pipe, square the radius and multiply by pi
(3.14). Hope this helps you. James (Salty Dog)>
Mazzei Injector
size
Hi,
<Good Morning>
I ordered a Mazzei injector 384
1/2" , is this suitable for my pump which is 300 GPH and the 1/2" output
? Someone told me that this Mazzei model is only for a maximum
flow rate of 200 GPH but the higher model is 3/4" and will not fit into
my pump. Can I use the Mazzei 200 GPH with my pump 300 GPH?
<I
would suggest you contact Mazzei.
www.uicorp.net/mazzei.htm. James (Salty Dog)>
Thanks
<You're
welcome>
Flow In The Refugium.. How Much?
Hello Crew.
<Hi there! Scott F. here today!>
I've been reading about DSB on your
site. I have a 135g tank, 40g sump, 29g refugium. 4" sand in the tank
and 6" of sand in the fuge. It is mentioned to keep water flow at 10-20X
tank volume. At the moment I have an Ampmaster 3000 connected and
running at about 1600gph(CPR 150 controlled). There are 4 outlets, if I
place one of my hands in front of one of the outlets it doesn't feel
like there is much pressure. Does pressure = current or is my turnover
sufficient?
<I think that your flow sounds just fine! I am not a big
fan of huge flow rates within a refugium. I'd like to see the animals
and plants in the refugium have maximum contact time with the water,
with a minimum of disturbance.>
Should I add another overflow and
crank up the pump to its 2228gph max? I've read that the turnover rate
for the 'fuge should only be 4-5X hour. Does this change for a DSB?
<Not in my opinion. The DSB should essentially remain undisturbed, so
the flow is fine as is! Hope this helps! Regards, Scott F.>
Flow Rate
Good evening! I hope all of you are well. Quick
question: I have a 90 gal. Acrylic predrilled with built-in prefilter
box. Water drains from this to the Tidepool wet- dry (three trays) and
gets pumped back to the aquarium through another hole drilled in that
prefilter box. There are other things in that sump but on separate
pumps. For example, the UV and skimmer. The current pump is a Magnetic
drive/Pondmaster model #7 which is supposed to do 500 gallons per hour
at a height of four feet. (That's the height I have from sump to top of
aquarium.) I have been reading that I should have more flow than that if
I want good circulation for corals. What do you recommend?
<You
would want a total flow of at least 900gph>
And, currently in that
prefilter box, as the water comes in to that it's only a couple of
inches, the rest of that box is empty. Could my current set up handle
more gallons per hour?
<If the aquarium filter box was sized
correctly for that tank you should be able to get the higher flow rate
with no problems. If not, you would have to install larger bulkhead
fittings.>
I have read the biggest issue is the overflow box. Mine
(LFS guy called it a pre-filter box) seems to have plenty of room. I
think I gave you all the information that you need to help you give me
the answer I am looking for. Thanks for being so helpful and for the
simple reason of caring about the creatures that are in our care!
<James (Salty Dog)>
Sump
Hi Bob.
<James for
Bob today.>
Thank you for your help. I think I will go with either 2
CPR CS50 or 2 CPR CS90 overflow boxes to the refugium, but what pumps
are appropriate for return to the main tank? I can't find any that match
the flow rates of those overflow boxes. Thank you again.
<Joe, all
that needs to be done is add a ball valve to the output of the pump and
control the flow. Some of the Hagen power heads have adjustable flow
rates. James (Salty Dog>
Circulation Problems in a Reef
Tank, Needs to Visit Conjunction/Punctuation Junction, too
I am
having a problem balancing the water flow [going] from [the] main tank
to sump, [then] from sump to refuge [that is] above main tank, and [then
back] from sump to main. I have a 58 gallon tank.
<Oh oh...>
I drilled the back glass. I have 2-1" bulkheads about 4" up from bottom
of tank in the center for drains.
<Where?...!>
I also have 2 -1"
bulkheads drilled on the ends of the back glass. 1-about 4" from top of
tank and the other about 6" up from the bottom of tank on both sides.
<?!>
I have a 5 gallon refuge which sits right at the top of the
tank. On the refuge I have a 3/4 bulkhead for water return from sump.
Then [I have] a 1" bulkhead for drain into main tank. I have a Euro-
fill 180 30 gallon sump that set[s] under main tank. Inside main tank I
have an overflow box 19" tall by 8' across 6" from front to back
covering the 2 1' bulkheads. I have two Durso stand pipes connected to
the 1" drains, going with 1 "1/4 pipe for the stand pipes. In the sump I
have an ASM G1-X skimmer. For return pumps I have 2 Rio Hyper Flow 14 HF
power heads; these pumps are rated at 840
gal [gph] at 1', 660 [gph]
at 4'.
I have a 3/4 PVC pipe running up to the two discharges into
main tank. The other pump is hard plumbed to the 3/4 bulkhead in [the]
refuge. I also have a standpipe in refuge to drain back into main with a
baffle where the discharge comes from sump. I tried this, but the force
from the pump was really strong, causing a lot of bubbles in refuge and
main tank, a lot of micro bubbles in main tank. Over all circulation was
good, levels stayed even in all tanks, just a lot of micro bubbles.
I tried to split the return from pump in sump to refuge and have 1
discharge go to refuge, 1 to main tank, but because discharge is higher
on refuge than [the] 1 going directly to main tank that water would go
to [the] lowest discharge and would not then go to refuge also. I then
tried using valves to regulate water flow between the 2 discharges, but
when I did this my overflow box began the flushing effect, [the] system
would not balance out. Still had micro bubbles in main tank. Went back
to 1 discharge to refuge, cut the flow back with valve, still had
flushing with drains plus strain on pump. [I] did see a reduction in
micro bubbles in main tank. I tried using 1 pump from sump, micro
bubbles almost gone but barely have any overflow, not sure if this is
enough circulation for corals hard and soft.
For the 2 bulkheads on
each side of [the] drains I made a close[d] loop on each one these, have
a Mag 9.5 hook[ed] to a SCWD - one for surface, one SCWD for lower jet
bulkheads. I do not know how to get rid of the micro bubbles [and] keep
the same flow with the 2 Rio pumps, or if I need to for circulation
[and] supply the refuge [to] keep it balanced with out the flushing and
micro bubbles. I added a another baffle in sump right after [the] drain,
before [the] skimmer, with 2 baffles after skimmer. I really did
not want to use sponges or filter socks. Any Help would be greatly
thankful.
Thanks Jeff.
<Well, you have two issues... the
circulation can be fixed only by re-drilling larger through-puts...
unless you want to greatly reduce water flow... I would NOT have holes
drilled near the bottom of tanks... as the consequences of power outage
or pump failure from below will prove disastrous... Therefore I would
silicone covers over these... The bubbles can be addressed by a few
means... likely the best for you here is the use of Dacron "socks" over
the discharge lines (below)... and baffles to provide air-free water to
your pumps. Bob Fenner>
Closed Loop water circulation 3/16/05
I've been not able to see answer to a basic question about closed loop
schedule.
<do see the extensive list of links I have to this subject
over in the "All Things Salty" forum at reefcentral.com. There is a
sticky thread at the top of that forum... many posts with pics :)>
My
setup is a 180g reef + 75g sump. I setup a closed loop with two 1"
intakes in the two overflow boxes to feed a Dolphin Ampmaster 3000.
The return is made in 9 different locations in the tank. The tank has
been running for 3 months and my soft corals and fish are doing fine so
far.
<ahh, good to hear>
I run the closed loop continuously - no
stop. Do you think it is a good idea or do I have to produce some kind
of intermittence? thanks, Didier
<random turbulence is very fine and
arguably better. Leave it exactly as you have it. Wave timers are not
needed. A waste of money IMO, although current switching devices (versus
wave timers that shut off pumps intermittently) are novel. Anthony>
