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More FAQs about Plumbing Closed-Loop Return Manifolds
3 Related Articles: Plumbing Return Manifolds,
Plumbing Marine Systems,
Refugiums,
Related FAQs: Closed Loop Recirculation 1,
Closed Loop Recirculation 2,
& FAQs on: Rationale,
Designs, Plumbing,
Pumps,
Troubleshooting/Repair, &
Marine Plumbing 1, Marine
Plumbing 2, Marine Plumbing 3, Marine
Plumbing 4, Marine Plumbing 5, Marine
Plumbing 6, Plumbing 7, Plumbing
8, Plumbing 9, Plumbing
11, Plumbing 12, Plumbing
13, Plumbing 14, Plumbing
15, Plumbing 16,
Plumbing 17, Plumbing
18,
Make
Up Water Systems, Pumps, Plumbing,
Circulation, Sumps,
Refugiums, Marine
Circulation 2, Gear
Selection for Circulation, Pump
Problems, Fish-Only
Marine Set-ups, Fish-Only
Marine Systems 2, FOWLR/Fish and
Invertebrate Systems, Reef Systems, Coldwater
Systems, Small Systems, Large
Systems, Water Changes, Surge
Devices,
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Closed Loop vs Vortech MP40w, Oceanic
vs Aqueon 11/4/08
Hello WWM,
<Hello Ryan.>
Let me start off with you guys are great I spend days reading information on
your website, the information is truly overwhelming but super informative. One
suggestion for your website…. Could you make it look more like an excel
spreadsheet? Then my boss will think I am working when I am reading!
<Ahhh, a good idea ? Glad you have found the site of so much use!>
I have had a 70 gallon reef running for 6 years and am ready to take the plunge
into a bigger tank. My current setup is a disaster waiting to happen. I have two
CPR over flows (the biggest ones they make) off the back of the tank draining at
full capacity into my refugium/sump. And actually I to put one of the out puts
of one of the CPRs directly into the chamber of the refugium where the pump
connects because the refugium could not handle all of that water flow. My
Dolphin Amp Master 3000 pumps the water back into the tank with 4 - ½ inch
nozzles and a manifold 1 ½ pvc with about 40 1/8 inch holes down behind 120
pounds of Fiji live rock.
<That is a lot of flow for the boxes to handle!>
I know the tank is more rock that anything. The water movement is great my fish
and soft corals love it but it took a lot of work to keep it from sand storming.
This setup did cure my hair algae battle I fought for a couple of years. The
Chaetomorpha in my refugium grows like a weed; I have to groom it down all the
time. Also the halimeda in my tank grows like no other as well. I have some
candy corals that I have split a few times, various polyps, and Xenias that are
growing like crazy. Along with a yellow tang, some Chromis, and maroon clown. My
snails and hermit crabs are doing great and I have a Stomatella population
thriving. The problem which I am sure you have noticed is the overflow boxes,
and the water levels to keep the pump not blowing air are at capacity. I put a
ball valve on the return side of the pump to try and line it up with the
overflows. Yes it has resulted in a couple of floods, my wife not so happy.
<I'll bet.>
I realize this potential disaster but have figured the wrath can't be that bad……
My wife has limited my spending (like so many others) so I have been saving for
a while. I want to make sure I am heading down the right path. I realize there
are many different ways to accomplish the same thing but I am sure your
collective infinite wisdom will be priceless.
<Will try.>
For the Tank I am looking at the Aqueon 180 with built in overflows. Realizing
it is not drillable for my Dolphin Amp Master 3000/4000, or the Oceanic 178 or
215 (with over overflows) that would be drillable.
<Do keep in mind the Aqueon can be drilled through the back/sides.>
I want to run the overflows down to my refugium/sump and run a small pump (1200
GPH) back up for filtration.
<These overflows typically have 1" drains, which are in reality only good for
300 gph per. You can special order any of these tanks with larger/more holes
predrilled for a small charge per hole.>
Obviously that will not be enough water turnover through those alone so I was
going to drill 2 inch bulkheads (Qty 2) for a closed loop with my Dolphin Amp
Master. Then at my LFS I found the Vortech MP40w's. I could go with the cheaper
Aqueon tank and not have to drill but still keep the interior of the tank clean
(No power heads/pumps visible.) Also I would not void the warranty by drilling
the Oceanic Tank.
<Reason to have them do it!>
Realizing the money I save from going with the Aqueon Tank I will be paying more
for the set of MP40w's with controller, but again would keep my warranty on the
tank.
So really I need a shove in the direction of the best way to turn over water in
my tank between these two options????? I read up on your website about these
Vortech pumps and I didn't find much….. Any new experience on reliability and
functionality of this product?
<They have vastly improved in quality over the few years out on the market, you
won't go wrong with these.>
They are pricey but if they get the job done maybe worth it long term??
<They are IMO, you savings in power monthly will be noticeable over the Dolphin.
More traditional powerheads can do the same for less, but then you have
powerheads!>
My thought is 1200 GPH through the refugium is plenty for filtration?
<Or 600 gph, tis enough for filtration.>
So what is the best way to increase circulation?
<The Vortechs/powerheads.>
Also is Oceanic tanks that much better than Aqueon (both made by the same
company) is it worth it and still go with Vortech pumps requiring me to save a
little longer?
<Not IMO, unless you want to spend the big bucks on the Oceanic Starphire
tanks.>
Or is the versatility of a closed loop system (water flow in any direction)
better than the Vortechs?
<It is a tradeoff, but experimenting with the placement on the Vortechs, good
flow can be achieved.>
Wow so I have reread this questions a few times I apologize for its length. Any
help and advice at all would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Ryan
<Welcome, have fun, Scott V.>
Simple reading, Closed Loop
3/2/08
Please someone help me! As far as I’m concerned I have the biggest problem
in the world.
<Not really from my perspective, I see many with much worse problems…daily.>
I have a 40 gal. reef tank with live rock and (2) two fish. My problem is that I
have it built high over my kitchen countertop; my space is 4' 11'' wide 17''
deep and 2' 10'' high. I have on top a nova extreme T5 fixture on the right
side, a PhosBan reactor on the back, a Lifegard fluidized bed filter, Prizm
skimmer and Aquaclear power filter that I use for a mechanical filter inside of
the tank. I have (6) six maxi jet powerheads, overflow from the Prizm and a 6''
tube from the power filter and on the left side I have a denitrator 6x6x12. My
problem is that I have so many powerheads in my tank that it takes away from the
beauty of the tank. I’m in need of some kind of knowledge on how I could get rid
of all this stuff so I can enjoy my tank.
<A simple closed loop with a circulation pump will do the trick, see here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/pbh2oret.htm , tis the answer to your question.>
My plan is to hang a refugium on the back and put all the powerheads inside of
it this will add another bigger powerhead to the tank, and I want to add an
Aquastep uv sterilizer also a ozone system. That leaves me (3) three powerheads
for circulation. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE HELP ME!!!!! Because I love my tanks!
Oh, did I tell you that I also have a 75gal tank under the counter that's an
open ocean
<??>
P.S.
I can't enlarge my reef tank space and I can't replace it with a larger 55gal.
Tank.
Thank you sincerely
<All is answered it the link above. Please proof, correct spelling and grammar
in future queries. Scott V.>
Closed-Loop questions 1/14/08
I am in the process of building two closed loops on my new 210RR since the
will be heavily sps corals. One will be a spray bar under the live rock flowing
1500gph(1 inch pvc), the other will be a Anthony Calfo manifold along the top(1
1/2 inch to the manifold, 1 inch for the manifold its self) with 10 1/2 inch
nozzles, flowing 3500gph.
<OK>
The loops will be powered by one sequence hammerhead how does this sound so
far).
<Fine.>
Will 4 intakes along the back about 6 inches from the top of the tank of 1 1/2
or 2 inches be enough to disperse the flow to a safe point, that is to a point
where no snails or other inverts get injured?
<Yes, this will be a very dispersed flow through the intakes with either sized
bulkhead.>
Also, any other suggestions on flow for an sps would be would be appreciated.
Thanks for all the help.
Joe
<Hi Joe, this question was answered for you a few days back, I included it below
just in case you did not get it. Your plan for flow in this tank sound good.
Either of your intake options will work. Have fun, Scott V.>
Closed-Loop questions 1/14/08
Crew,
<Joe>
I am currently in the process of setting up a 210 gallon AGA tank. I want to
drill the tank for two different closed loop systems. The first will be a spray
bar along the bottom of the tank that the live rock will be built up around.
(was thinking that I will run this in 3/4" PVC with a flow of about 1500gph or
so)
<I would make it 1” pvc for this flow.>
This will keep the rock from building up wastes. The second will be a system of
Anthony Calfo's design around the top of the tank. (was thinking that I will run
the manifold in 1" PVC with 1/2" nozzles, or should I go with 3/4" nozzles?)
<Depends on the number of output desired. For 3500 gph I would go with five ¾”
or eight to nine ½” outputs.>
(If I go with 1/2" I am figuring about 10 nozzles for a flow of about 3500gph,
350 per nozzle) That said, my questions are these; can I run both loops off of
the same pump?
<Yes, with the amount of outputs a very large pump.>
I would much rather purchase one pump than two since they are not cheap. I was
thinking about running both loops off of a Sequence Hammerhead pump with ball
valves on each loop so that I can adjust the flow Going to each. Will this work
or would I be better with two separate pumps?
<Two pumps has its advantages. If one pump fails you still have circulation
while waiting for a replacement/repair. Consider running two Darts, or even a
Dart and Snapper for this application, this will make intake plumbing easier
also.>
Where should I place my intakes? I would like to hide them but then again I
don't want to tear my reef apart to clean them so I was thinking of just putting
them about 3/4 of the way up the back of the tank.
<I would be sure to place them in a position for easy cleaning.>
What size should the intakes be and how many? The hammerhead has 1 1/2" threaded
connections so I was thinking that I would have 4 intakes drilled in the back of
the tank for 1 1/2" or even 2" bulkheads and tie them all together to feed the
pump.
<I would opt for two 2” intakes here. The same for the dual pumps.>
This way the flow at any one intake is not enough to suck up any animals. So the
back of my tank would like something like this,
_______________________________________________
[ ]
[ X X X X ]
[ ]
[ ]
[ ]
[ O ]
[______________________________________________]
In this simple diagram the Xs are my intakes and the O is my return for the
spray bar (should I make the spray bar return an 1 1/2 bulkhead and then choke
it down or should I choke down before the bulkhead?)
<After the bulkhead.>
The return for Anthony’s loop will come up over the back of the tank.
One other questions, I have not yet purchased the skimmer for this tank. I want
a really powerful skimmer as this will be a almost entirely SPS tank, I was
thinking of a ASM G-5 or a Lifereef VS3-36. What skimmer would you recommend for
this tank?
<I really like the ASM skimmers, I would also be considering a Euro-Reef as
well.>
Thanks for all your help.
Joe
<Welcome, good luck, Scott V.> |
Spraybar/Closed-Loop
Questions – 01/08/07
Crew,
<<Hiya Joe>>
First I just want to say that the web site is fantastic.
<<We’re pleased you think so>>
I have found it a great resource as I have been setting up my various tanks. I
am currently in the process of moving up from a 90 gal reef to a 210 gal AGA
Mega-Flow tank.
<<Excellent…and since you have been reading, I assume you know how many of us
consider the “Mega-flow” moniker to be a misnomer>>
The tank is going to be a mostly SPS dominated tank so I want to have two
separate closed-loop systems in the tank.
<<Okay>>
One will be a spray bar system that the live rock will be placed around to keep
waste from settling anywhere in the rock. My questions on this system are; where
should I place my intake (could it be placed inside the Mega-Flow to hide it or
would the Mega-Flow not be able to keep up?) and how large should the intake be?
<<Don’t place the intake for your closed-loop in the drain overflow box…the box
is not designed to handle the additional flow. Otherwise, you can position the
intake anywhere you like…though low-down on the back/sides will likely be
easiest to hide/disguise. As for size…match the closed-loop intake to the size
of the pump intake>>
How large should the piping for the whole spray bar be (I was leaning toward
1")?
<<For the spraybar itself I would think ¾” pipe would be sufficient, as well as
less obtrusive. The pipe feeding/leading up to the spraybar should be “at least”
as large as the pumps output nozzle>>
How large will my pump need to be (I was think something around 3500gph)?
<<Generally, the size of the pump for a closed-loop is determined by the number
and size of the flow nozzles…but a spraybar will not be so easy to calculate I
think. Obviously the size and number of perforations in the pipe will ultimately
determine the “force” of the flow…and is quite easily adjusted for here as
compared to a conventional “loop.” I think you can use about any size pump you
like and “experiment” with the spraybar to achieve the best results re. But
personally, I think 1200-1500 gph for the spraybar would be sufficient…reserving
the/a larger pump for your other closed-loop>>
Should the spray bar be fed with one or two returns?
<<Either way is fine, though a “pair” of returns to feed the pump offers some
redundancy as well as a decrease in suction/danger to your livestock>>
Lastly, is this system compatible with a deep sand bed (I feel like it should be
as long as I lift it 5" or so off the bottom to allow for the sand and keep the
holes pointed up)?
<<Indeed…as long as you take the flow direction in to consideration as you
mention>>
The second closed-loop system will be of Anthony Calfo's design along the top of
the tank to provide random flow.
<<Excellent>>
My questions for this system are the same questions about intake (placement,
size).
<<And my answers are the same>>
The same question about pump size?
<<As stated…determined by number and size of flow nozzles. You should figure
(after headloss) about 350gph per ½” nozzle and about 650 gph per ¾” nozzle in
order to achieve enough “force” to create a purposeful flow>>
How many nozzles should be on the system (the tank is 6' x 2')
<<I would employ at least six…eight if you have the pump for it>>
What size should the piping and nozzles be (I was thinking 1" or 1 1/2" piping
to 3/4" nozzles)?
<<Again, match the feed pipe to the output nozzle of the pump (or slightly
larger if you wish). The ¾” nozzles will be fine if a large enough pump is used,
but on all but very large systems my preference is to use ½” nozzles…less
intrusive, more forceful flow, can add more per a given pump size>>
Do you think that this is a good setup for a SPS tank?
<<Match your nozzles and pumps correctly and these closed-loops should serve
well>>
Please let me know if there is some way better for me to be doing this.
Thanks so much for the help.
Joe
<<Happy to share. EricR>>
Closed-Loop Musings...And Some Particularly Helpful Ebo-Jager Heater Info
From a Reader/User of Our Site – 05/17/07
Hello,
<<Greetings>>
This is my first email to the "Crew".
<<Welcome!>>
I usually just search the site for information. I am fairly new to the world of
saltwater tanks, but I have had a freshwater tank of some sort for over 15
years.
<<Cool>>
I converted my 125 gallon freshwater to a saltwater tank almost a year and a
half ago using the wealth of information from the WWM site. I had four 3-inch
holes (two on each side) drilled on the back of the tank to accommodate 2-inch
bulkheads.
<<Excellent>>
The glass company only had 2 or 3 inch bits. I also plumbed a ¾-inch
closed-loop around the perimeter of the tank with 8 outputs.
<<Very nice...and will require a very large/powerful pump to operate
efficiently, something in the range of 4800gph after headloss>>
I ended up capping one output off due to it's proximity to the Remora Pro
Skimmer.
<<Mmm, an excellent skimmer...but I would have gone for something a bit larger
for this size tank>>
I bought the skimmer before I decided to have the tank drilled. After reading
about the numerous floods and the statement that it wasn't a question of if, but
when, I decided it
would be in my best interest to have the tank drilled.
<<Yes indeed...though many such calamities could be averted if hobbyists would
employ some redundancy to their overflow systems (i.e. – use “two” hang-on
overflow boxes but supply only enough flow to max out “one”)...but still, my
preference is to drill for “gravity” drains as you have done>>
I used 2 of the bulkheads for drains for the closed-loop, and one for a surface
drain to the sump. The forth bulkhead is reduced down to 1-inch PVC and then
down to ¾-inch PVC in the tank.
<<This last is the sump return line then?>>
The Remora Pro utilizes a Mag Drive 3 pump. I have a Mag 7 to pump water from
the sump to the tank via a one-inch PVC pipe that over hangs the back of the
tank.
<<I see...then obviously the fourth bulkhead is “not” for the sump return>>
I also added a Mag 5 to pump water in a loop through a Coral 18 watt 6X UV
sterilizer and then back to the sump. I am only supplying all the details of
my setup because I read on the site is better to have a lot of information than
not enough.
<<Yes>>
I also plan to reduce the number of pumps I am utilizing. I bought a Mag 3600
to run the closed-loop.
<<You will likely have to cap a few more nozzles to achieve strong enough flow
from the remaining nozzles. Figure on 550gph-650gph per ¾” nozzle...much less
than this and the flow from the nozzles is too weak to be of much use>>
At first, the pump was unbearable. I called the company and they sent me a
new impeller.
<<Good>>
This did quiet the pump a lot, but the pump was still way too loud for a living
area.
<<This is often the case...and the reason I turned to Tunze to meet the flow
requirements of my large SPS dominated reef system>>
Also, the pump was mounted externally, but the heat transfer was way too much.
<<This seems to be another common issue with this otherwise reliable/good value
for the dollar brand of pump>>
I have since read some of the postings on the site of people that have heat
problems and/or noise problems with this same pump. Most all have the same
problem I did. Way too much heat transfer and way too much noise.
<<Indeed...common as stated>>
The other 3 Mag pumps I have are submersed and are no problem whatsoever. They
work great.
<<Ah yes...and also stated, a reliable/good value pump brand>>
However, I think it would save some people a lot of problems if they avoided the
Mag 3600 altogether if they are planning on using it in a living area and/or do
not own a chiller.
<<Maybe so...though adding a lot of pumps/pumps of large size of most any brand
will cause heating/noise issues in varying degrees (no pun intended), especially
in concert with the intense/high power lighting associated with reef
systems. Employing ancillary equipment/methods to deal with heat buildup is
something reef hobbyists must consider as a matter of routine in many cases>>
Also, my tank has about 10 feet of head-loss and the Mag 3600 just doesn't pump
enough to run the 7 ½-inch outputs on my closed-loop.
<<Ah, ok...you didn’t state the nozzle size previously. For ½” outlets/nozzles
you still need to figure 350pgh per nozzle...or in this case, a minimum of
2500gph after head loss>>
They all have flow, just not enough.
<<Yep>>
2 of the 7 have sufficient flow.
<<All will work fine with a large enough pump>>
Recently, I replaced the Mag 3600 with a Dolphin Amp Master 4000/3000 pump.
<<These are popular pumps for closed-loop systems>>
I was pleasantly surprised. This pump is super quiet and also, the tank is no
longer too hot.
<<Excellent...and apparently worth the extra cost>>
I was amazed that I actually needed my heaters. Due to some dumb mistakes in my
calculations, I ordered the wrong pump though.
<<Really?...still too much head loss eh?>>
I should have ordered the Dolphin 5600/4700 pump.
<<I see>>
Marine Depot stated that if I tried the pump I could not return it. However,
Dolphin Pumps stated that I should go ahead and try the pump and if it wasn't
pumping enough they would upgrade it. Well, they took care of me. I did have
to pay the shipping so I did waste about $20, but Dolphin Pumps is sending me
the 5600 pump for the difference in price plus shipping.
<<Very nice...and so good to hear of such service>>
It will also line up exactly with the pipes I have plumbed for the 4000 pump
since the pumps are the same size and dimensions.
<<Handy>>
Now that I actually need my heaters, I kept noticing that my Ebo Jager heaters
were set almost 10 degrees cooler than the temperature in my tank, but were
still coming on. I have two 250 watt heaters in my 25 gallon sump. Well,
after checking the temperature in my sump with my digital thermometer I realized
that my sump wasn't a different temperature than my tank like I thought.
<<Why would it be?>>
I just assumed that the water was somehow losing heat on its way to the sump.
<<Ah, I see...nope, doesn’t happen that quickly>>
It became obvious to me something wasn't right when the heaters were set lower
than the room temperature, but were still coming on. How could the water be 73
degrees in the sump when the room was 75 degrees?
<<Could possibly happen under certain conditions (a large system with lights out
and fans on, providing evaporative cooling), but in most all cases the
pumps/equipment keep system water warmer than ambient room temperature as you
surmise>>
I don't own a chiller and the pumps and lights create heat.
<<Indeed>>
Well, after a little searching on the net, I found out that the Ebo Jager
heaters needed/could be calibrated.
<<...?! ...really!>>
After measuring the temperature of the sump with a accurate thermometer, I
turned on the heaters and then turned them off just till the light went
off. This temperature should have matched the temperature of my digital
thermometer. Of course, it didn't. Now I realize this isn't rocket science,
but it is very informative and useful for anyone having similar problems. After
turning the knob on the heaters slowly just to where the light goes off, you
unplug them. Then, you pull out on the knob at the end of the heater all the
way, turn the dial to the correct temperature, and then push the knob all the
way back in. "Presto"! I now have two heaters that work correctly.
<<Wow...great information, thanks for sharing>>
I also found that my sump and tank do have the same temp.
<<Hee-hee!>>
So in the course of about a week, my heat problem was solved, my pump noise
problem was solved, and my fish should be a lot happier with the extra flow from
the new 5600 pump.
<<Excelsior!>>
Also I read somewhere on the site not to put a shut-off valve before the pump.
<<Can be used for maintenance purposes in conjunction with a union fitting, but
should never be used to “starve” the pump. If a valve is wanted/needed to
temper flow it should be plumbed on the output side of the pump>>
This ended up being a pain when it came time to service the pump because I had
to block the drains and then drain water out of the pipes. It is definitely
worth whatever head loss there is to have a shut-off valve before and after the
pump. It's a hundred times easier to service or remove the pump.
<<Much agreed>>
Thanks so much for the wealth of information I was able to find on your site.
<<Is our pleasure to serve/share>>
I have learned a lot in the past 18 months or so and I just wanted to pass on
some helpful information.
- Jeff
<<It is much appreciated, thank you for your contributions. Eric Russell>>
Closed-Loop Or Not? – 01/03/07
Greetings to all, and a Happy New Year.
<<Howdy Bill...Happy New Year>>
After a long delay, I finally have my new tank and stand in position.
<<Neat!>>
It is an All Glass 180 gallon with the Mega Flow system.
<<A misnomer if there ever was one...>>
When all is done it will be a Reef tank.
<<cool>>
I used a Dremel, and cut out the 'teeth' on the overflows, and siliconed black
plastic gutter guard in its place. Converted the drain pipes to Dursos and
upped the returns to 1” instead of 3/4".
<<All good>>
My 'plan' it so use 2 pumps for the returns, with one pump running for 5 to 6
hours, then the other coming on for the same duration creating a left then right
flow.
<<Interesting...and possibly a long enough interval so as to not greatly
foreshorten the life of the pumps>>
I'm at a stand still in my plumbing process though--my questions are--do I want
to add a closed-loop, or hang a Tunze in the middle of the back, pointing
towards the front.
<<Mmm...the closed-loop will offer greater flow options...but the quality,
efficiency, and ease of installation of the Tunze is hard to ignore>>
If I do a closed-loop, I'm thinking of placing it on the tank bottom with the
outlets sticking up just out of the substrate--which would be best in your
opinion ??
<<Can’t say I’ve ever seen/heard of this but the idea of it is
intriguing. Assumably the force/flow of water would prevent any blockages from
occurring...just be sure to install the manifold and pump as a “true
closed-loop” (will require drilling the tank) to preclude draining the tank
empty in the event of a power outage. As to which is best (Tunze or
closed-loop) that will depend on the needs/particulars of your tank, the
size/location of the closed-loop pump vs. the Tunze pump, and your sense of
aesthetics. Using my own situation as an example...I was unable to employ a
pump with enough flow to run a closed-loop for my tank (375g...predominantly
Acroporids) and still stand to be in the same room (in-wall design...no
basement/fish room), so I opted for the Tunze Stream pumps to get the volume of
flow I was looking for yet still be able to hold a conversation without yelling,
watch the telly, etc. An added bonus is the power savings...the Tunze pumps
really are power misers. The downside is the “look” of these rather large pumps
in the tank>>
I have searched your site and can't find what seems to be the preferred
circulation method.
<<Ah yes, all a matter of opinion, likes/dislikes...not exactly comparing apples
to apples here. My “preferred” method (the Tunze pumps) may not be the same for
the next person.>>
Once I get this figured out, I'll place my order for my Live Rock, and begin the
cycling process. I have my RO/DI set up and running, 100gpd, and it is being
stored in 2 96-gallon Rubbermaid trash cans, one feeding the other. The tank
will drain into a 40-gallon breeder, that will be the refugium, and that will
gravity drain into the sump, my old 90-gallon Cichlid tank, (these are in the
basement, behind the wall where the display tank is).
I also have my lighting ready to go when needed too. What are your thoughts ???
<<The description sounds fine. I especially like the refugium draining via
gravity to the sump (is what mine does), but be sure to have this drain directly
to the return pump chamber to preclude excessive loss of beneficial organisms to
the skimmer (you “will” employ a skimmer I hope). As for going with a
closed-loop or the Tunze pump...that decision is yours. Both methods can/do
work well with proper application/design/placement. Is one better than the
other? Not really...they both have their place...more often than not it comes
down to what is the most practical...in my humble opinion>>
Thanking you in advance for your time,
Bill Fletcher
<<A pleasure to share. Eric Russell>>
Re: Closed-Loop or Not? - 01/04/06
Eric, (or whomever the lucky crew member maybe)
<<It be me (Eric) again!>>
THANKS for the reply.
<<Hope it was helpful>>
I can't take credit for the 2 main pump idea, I found it in the book
"Ultimate Marine Aquariums".
<<Ah yes, have that book myself...though I don't recall the
double/switching pump system...perhaps time for another read>>
As for using a Tunze, as you stated, they can't be beat in regards to
quality, efficiency, and the ease of installation--it's just the "look"
as you referred to.
<<Yes...big...though this is less noticeable/less of an impact with the
larger tanks. And even their size can be tolerated by most considering
their performance...especially when coupled with the versatility of the
electronic models>>
If I go closed-loop, the tank will be drilled, and the pump will be
under the tank in the stand--the only pump that will be in the same room
as the tank, and it will be a complete loop.
<<Ah good, much more efficient use of the pump opposed to plumbing from
the basement. Though there is still the noise to deal with...but maybe
this is not an issue here>>
I do have a skimmer, and THANK YOU for pointing out that I will need to
rethink its placement--Darn just when you think you got things all
sorted out ;-)
Bill Fletcher
<<Ha! Indeed...but you don't want to be wasting those little goodies
generated by the refugium! Good luck with your installation. Eric
Russell>>
Closed loop... alternative to powerheads, heat production 11/8/06
Greetings from Canada...
A couple of quick questions....
1-a closed loop of 6' long x1' wide powered by an 1800g/hr mag drive pump. How
many outlets (minimum/maximum) can it handle to deliver adequate flow through
1/2" CPVC? It's a 125 gallon tank...72"x18"x24"..
<Mmm... six to eight is about maximum/ideal here>
The loop will be hung from the cross members in the centre of the tank as it's
impossible for me to run it along the perimeter or build a sump.
2-The pump is going to be hung inside of the tank. Will it cause heat issues?
<Will contribute to 1/2mVsquared here to an extent, yes>
I currently run 8 powerheads
<! Time to look into fewer, more powerful? Perhaps a "Tunze" Christmas this
year?>
so will there be much heat difference as I will obviously be removing the
powerheads have appr 120 liverock 5" oolite aragonite sandbed and a remora
pro skimmer.
Thanks for your time and response...Pete
<Only real time, experience can/will tell here... Mag pumps run hot... I suspect
hotter than your collective powerhead assemblage currently. Bob Fenner>
Closed loop idea, need some advice
- 10/28/06
Hey Guy's /Girl's of WWM,
here's is my idea for my closed loop set-up on my 125 gallon tank. I
will also have two additional returns coming from the sump/ refuge
[return pump] out the overflow's in addition to this idea.
want to used 2 SCWD WAVEMAKERS. I know their max pressure is 1400 gph so
take a look at the pump gph and tell me if you think this would Work.
<Mmm, will... and it may be a matter of how the drawing looks, but the
SCWDs should be shown at the top, in the tank itself preferably.>
Thanks for your advice
John
<Bob Fenner> |
|
 |
Closed-Loop Design – 10/16/06
Hi Bob,
<<EricR here today>>
I have a 72x28x18 reef tank, planning to keep SPS. Was thinking of having a
closed-loop system with a Dart Supreme 3600 gal/hr.
<<Sounds good>>
What are your suggestions for the plumbing? I mean , where do you think I
should position the outlet and the inlets? I was thinking of having the inlet
at the back panel, about 1/3 the way from the bottom and the outlets at the
sides of the tank, with one of them slightly lower than the other !! I will
appreciate your opinion.
Thank you,
Ramy
<<This could work fine, or you could fashion a return “manifold” for the
outlets. Check out this article by Anthony Calfo re (http://www.wetwebmedia.com/pbh2oret.htm)
and be sure to read among the linked files at the top of the page. Regards,
EricR>>
Closed Loop Pump - 10/15/06
I am wanting to add a closed loop to my 120 gallon reef tank to get rid of
my power heads and I was wondering what size pump would I need to use for this.
<??? Too many pumps and possibilities to answer this question. Time to start
doing some math with plumbing and see which pump will do the job for you.> I am
only using a 600 gallon per hour pump for my main circulation so my flow through
my refugium isn't chaotic and to stop micro bubbles. So I need more power I was
thinking about using a mag drive 24 that pumps out about 2400 gallons an hour is
this to much. <Sure, why not?> I am just going to be keeping softies and
LPS.
Thanks.
<Cheers, J -- >
SW circ. manifold, Calfo 10/4/06
Hi everyone,
Hate to be picky, but this one has to be answered by Anthony. I was reading the
forum on Reef Central and would really like to see your Closed loop manifold,
Any chance of getting some pictures of it?
Thanks
<Antoine is no longer with us. You might reach him at MarineDepot.com's comm.
site. What pix we have of such are posted on WWM... use the search tool and/or
the indices. BobF>
Another closed loop question 9/26/06
Hi All
<Robert>
I've been reading all your info on closed loop manifolds and want your input on
what I need to power this thing. At this point I only have a Iwaki 40RLXT
running my sump and it's rated at around 1100 gph.. If I need a 20X per hour
circulation, then my 157 gal tank needs around 3600 gph. Will it be possible to
get a manifold to handle the 2500 gph I'll need?
<Yes...>
If so what pump would you recommend or do you have another suggestion on how to
get the water movement I need.
Thanks
Robert
<Posted... see WWM re. BobF>
Closed-Loop Design/Stocking a 120 FOWLR - 09/22/06
Eric,
Randy here again.
<<Hey Randy!>>
Well, I'm making progress on the 120 FOWLR project w/55 fuge/sump
and have a few more questions.
<<Okay>>
I read on WWM almost every night and get lots of info, but unsure on
a few things.
<<Let's see if I can help "clear things up">>
First, regarding my 120. I went ahead and had it drilled with
4 1-1/2" bulkheads.
<<Excellent>>
2 1-1/2's will feed my 55 sump/fuge. I plan on using a MAG 9.5
that I have for the return w/4-5" of head. Does the 9.5 sound like
it will be enough for the sump flow (before you say I need more
flow, please read further about my closed loop flow)?
<<No worries my friend...will be fine as the "return" pump>>
Second, this is where I need your help. BTW: I have read a lot on
the closed-loops and Anthony's article on the closed-loop. I see
that there are many different ways.
<<Indeed>>
My plan for the closed-loop is: The other 2 1-1/2" bulkheads I plan
to "T" together and run into my Iwaki WMD30RXLT. It will be mounted
so it will only have 1 or 2' of head.
<<Ok>>
-From the 1" output on the Iwaki, what is best?
-Should I run it into one closed-loop above the tank that will
have 6 to 8 1" overhead "T's" with 3/4" flex?
-Should I run it into one dead-end loop (I know, then it's not a
loop) above the tank that will have 6 to 8 1" overhead "T's" with
3/4" flex?
-Should I run either a closed-loop or a dead end perimeter with
6-8 outputs?
-Should the above tank manifold be 3/4" or 1" with the Iwaki
30RXLT pump?
-Is the Iwaki WMD30RXLT a good choice and fit for this loop idea?
-Is there a better design idea with my 2 1-1/2" for the loop
flow?
<<Okay Randy, the first option is best/the most simple but I think I
need to make something clear here. The size a and number of
"outlets" on the closed-loop determine the size of the pump
required...and vise-versa>> With 6 to 8 3/4" outlets you will need
a pump with a terminal output after head loss of at least 4,800
gallons per hour to produce enough "velocity" at each outlet to be
useful. Even if you reduce the outlet size to 1/2" you will still
need about 2,800 gph. With the pump you have now, you're looking at
a closed-loop with a maximum of "two" 1/2" outlets (three "might"
work, but I don't think you have "quite" enough flow re). You need
to figure about 350 gph per 1/2" nozzle/outlet, and 650-700 gph per
3/4" nozzle. With two 1 1/2" bulkheads installed, you have the
option of using two smaller pumps and plumbing separate closed-loops
to each half of the tank>>
And last, I'm thinking ahead about stocking. Here are my thoughts
and ideas I have also read some on this as of lately at WWM. I will
have about 100-120 lbs of LR in there. Also, I have a 4.5" reef
safe wrasse that I will add first. He is in my 46 reef now. I
don't know what type he is but he is light green completely with
several pinkish lines running horizontally across his face and body,
all the way thru his tail.
<<Do have a look through our articles on wrasse...especially the
genus Halichoeres>>
I want to add shrimp to the reef tank but they will be lunch with
him around.
<<Not necessarily, depends much on the species/individual
personalities. I have several wrasse species in my reef that
cohabitate quite well with my cleaner and blood shrimp. One thing
to keep in mind when adding shrimp to "any" reef tank is to not just
"drop them in" as you do food items but rather gently "place" them
low in the rockwork where they can find refuge>>
I would like a large angel. Is there one that I can sustain long
term in the 4'x2'x2' 120 tank? (please say yes, I love the angels
but have limited wall space). I am thinking of the Annularis,
French, Koran?? I need something beautiful, hardy and obviously,
not to large. Any thoughts. Can you suggest one? Price is almost,
a main concern besides longevity (Inland Chicago area). I know,
I'm not asking for much!
<<The Pomacanthus annularis would be a fine choice...the other two
get too large for this tank in my opinion>>
I would like to add with the angel of choice, a dwarf flame angel, a
yellow-eye Kole tang, a yellow tang, a sailfin tang or convict tang
(I think that these are all different genera??).
<<Mmm, three different genera (Ctenochaetus, Zebrasoma, and
Acanthurus)...the yellow and sailfin tangs are of the same genera>>
Should I only go with one tang?
<<Exclude the sailfin altogether (gets too large here)...I think you
could get by with a Kole tang and a Yellow tang...or the Convict
tang on its own>>
A Foxface, and a butterfly (I don't know much about them, what do
you recommend?)
<<Several good choices, check out this article for best picks:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/BFsBestWrst.htm>>
Can I add one or two tomato clowns or maroons clowns?
<<Mmm, maybe...but pretty much "full-up" mate. You need consider
adult sizes of the fishes already selected>>
I like the dogfaces but I read that they can emit a toxin??
<<Indeed...but again, your pushing/exceeding limits here>>
I think the triggers are too aggressive, maybe a clown trigger??
<<Only of you want this to ultimately be the only macro-organism in
this tank... There are trigger species that would be suitable, but
your past adding any of these at this point>>
I don't want to stock it to the limit.
<<Is about what you've done>>
You kind of see the direction that I am going, what do you
recommend?
<<Have stated re>>
Also, I know that the tangs and the Foxface pose a threat, but I
would like to be able to stick my arm in the tank if needed without
to much concern.
<<Have both in my tank...remain vigilant and you won't have a
problem>>
I know that the Foxface will usually hide unless cornered.
<<Will become "accustomed", even curious to your presence...but not
likely to be an aggressive/overt threat>>
No eels, lions, poisonous puffers! etc. etc etc...
<<Hee! No room for them!>>
Thanks yet again for your time, help and devotion to our hobby.
<<Is my pleasure to share>>
WWM has become a one-stop-shopping reference tool for me, I love
this site! INFO, INFO, INFO!!!
Thanks,
Randy
<<Be chatting my friend. EricR>>
Plumbing for a refugium & return manifold in 58 gal reef
- 09/14/06
Brent here. Hope all the crew is doing well! Basic
background. 58 gal 36lx18,5wx21"h Tank. Intended use: Nice family
project for my son, daughter and me. My wife just shakes her head
at our willingness to research, learn and spend bucket loads of
money. I'd like to point out that my 8 year old daughter is
probably more enthused than me, and spends a lot of time searching
the net for reef fish, inverts, and ideas to help the project out.
<Well worth the investment all the way around>
She has even created her own little reef book complete with the
fish, inverts and corals that she would like, noting common name,
species, a little bit about the species, care, feeding etc along
with a photo. Beats shopping or playing with boys as she says!
<Oh yes!>
Anyway I digress. Back to the issue at hand. Reef display with
some LPS and some soft corals, mating pair of Ocellaris Perculas,
Lawnmower Blenny, Royal Gramma, Six Line Wrasse, and a Flameback
Angle added last, approximately 1 year after setup. T5 - 6x39 watt
hood. I have a couple of general questions for completing the
plumbing on my 58 gallon, sump and possible closed loop
manifold. Just working to fine tune the details and wanted to get
your input. 58 has the corner MegaFlow overflow built
in. Wondering which manifold kit is better the Durso or the
MegaFlow kit?
<Mmm, the former IMO/E>
Megaflow kit has the return pipe and end fitting for the in-let
and appears to be more complete with the perforated critter block
for the inlet.
<Can get, thread in such a screen yourself...>
I have a CPR Large HOT refugium with maxi-jet 1200 that will
incorporate MM with Chaeto and the CPR CF light unit. Lighting cycle
in the CPR refugium to be on 24/7. Although I'm not married to this
photo cycle.
<I would go with an overlapping RDP myself... Chaetomorpha should
not be illuminated continuously>
I believe the CF is 19 watt? I'm planning a 30lx14wx16 high
sump/refugium with 4" DSB, sugar fine aragonite, a small amount of
live rock to seed and Chaetomorpha algae with CF lighting 20 watt
+/-. Lighting to cycle in the sump/refugium off cycle from the
display. I believe the actual refugium gallonage will be around 10
gallons, not including the 4" sand bed. I also have a CPR
BakPak
skimmer unit which I intend to have running full time. I am
planning to use a mag-drive pump, external, to handle the return
which will simply be plumbed back up to the MegaFlow inlet pipe
nozzle. Just not sure if I should use the mag-drive 5 or 7 here?
<Mmm... if it were me/mine, the 5>
I am also thinking of incorporating a mag 5 or 7 drive, internal,
and creating either a manifold return closed loop with squid on 2
outlets or trying to incorporate Anthony's water return manifold
http://wetwebmedia.com/pbh2oret.htm?
<A good plan. The seven here>
Your thoughts and insight is well appreciated. And thank you all
for such a great site and willingness to help!
<An enlivening pleasure to share. Bob Fenner>
Re: Plumbing for a refugium & return manifold in 58 gal reef. Not
quite ready 9/15/06
Bob and crew, thanks for the quick reply! In re-thinking just
slightly. I am contemplating using Durso overflows for both the 1"
and 1/2" down to a sump set up to handle both overflow in 1" in the
main sump and 1/2" to the refugium part with both overflowing
baffles into a center return area (not using the 1/2" for the
return) .
<Let's take each of these items one at a time... I strongly
encourage you to do a bit more delving... You (assuredly) do NOT
want this small diameter overflow lines... too little volume,
intermittent siphoning effects... and gurgling noise the likes of
which even the Jolly Green Giant and a massive bottle of Listerine
can produce!!! Please read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dursopipefaqs.htm
and the linked files above...>
I can then place a pump external if I box into the return area to
allow the pump to be exterior or place pump inside (although heat
trans may be an issue)?
<May be... depends largely on the make, model... and
size/volume-flow of pump used...>
In incorporating both the 1" and 1/2" for overflows I can return
back with a mag-drive 9.5 or 12?
<Not necessary... this pump can/will "out pump" more than these
lines can/could deliver... My friend... please... read...>
and was thinking of utilizing the SQWD for alternating return
current with 2 ever-tank-directable nozzles about 1" below the water
surface. Does this seem best to incorporate the overflow using the
2 drains and return over the top or separate as I noted in my design
before.
<Mmm, no... better to use one line of good/decent diameter and
all-plastic valves to regulate flow... overflows w/o will prove to
be frustrating...>
Although the combined, rearranged sump will allow the extra flow,
this will provide for a considerably smaller refugium. Your
thoughts?
<You need... to read. Bob Fenner>
Sump/Manifold Plumbing - 09/13/06
Hi again folks.
<<Howdy Jim!>>
I am smack in the middle of setting up my new 150XH reef (I know,
it's a tall tank, but there were reasons), with a 40G Breeder
sump/refugium.
<<Cool!>>
This was a very hurried job after my 72G bowfront sprung a major
leak,
<<Yikes! Been there myself mate>>
but now that the fish and corals are all (relatively) happily
settled in their new home (instead of Rubbermaid tubs in the middle
of the living room floor), I am considering how to redo the current
temporary plumbing into something more permanent and helpful.
<<Okay>>
The tank is a predrilled/overflow tank from Perfecto, with one
corner overflow (I had anticipated two) which has a drain and a
return fit with 1.25" bulkhead fittings.
<<Mmm...better than the usual 1" I suppose>>
My original plan was to run the 1.25" drain through a bushing, down
to 1", and directly into the input of my Poseidon2 Vortex Venturi
skimmer sitting in the first 9" compartment of the sump, probably
without even using a pump--just let gravity drive the
skimmer. Assuming I manage to achieve the right flow rate, which,
based on the pump that came with the skimmer, should be 700-800 GPH,
does this make sense, or is it a crazy idea?
<<You will never achieve 700-800 gph with a 1" (bushed) gravity
drain my friend...expect something closer to 400 gph. But from what
I can tell from a quick scan of the NET, this skimmer is not a
"recirculating" and thus won't work by simply feeding water to the
skimmer body. This skimmer needs to pull water from the sump
through the venturi pump to operate properly>>
I was hoping this would assure 100% skimming of the incoming water,
but I can just run the drain into the compartment and use the Via
Aqua pump that came with the skimmer to drive it, if that makes more
sense.
<<This is what you will have to do>>
Then through triple baffles/bubble trap (the idea for movable
compression baffles was a huge help) into a 20"x18"x12" lighted
refugium compartment with live rock, DSB, and macro-algae, then into
a 7" return compartment with a MAG-12 return pump and a float valve
for automatic make-up water.
<<Sound fine>>
I was then planning to run the output of the MAG-12 into a SCWD (by
way of a union and a ball valve), and run one side of the SCWD into
the pre-drilled return, adding an over-the-wall 3/4" adjustable
return at the other end of the tank to achieve some random/surge
circulation.
<<I would use BOTH throughputs to feed the sump...one "may not"
handle the flow from the MAG-12...at least not quietly>>
I was then also planning to add a couple small powerhead driven
circulation devices in the back, using a design I found on Reef
Central that uses PVC to keep the powerhead up out of the tank and
in the canopy where it doesn't add heat and can be maintained
(strainer and PVC up to the powerhead, then PVC back down to the
location where circulation is desired).
<Hmm...have not seen this...>>
Now that I've done some reading about plumbing on the site, I am
questioning the entire plan.
<<...?>>
First, I am wondering if this would be enough circulation. I figure
the MAG-12 should be pushing about 900 GPH at 6' head.
<<Will be quite less after the SCWD...but still possibly more than
the single return will handle efficiently/quietly>>
Adding a couple 200 GPH auxiliary circulation devices would bring
my total to 1300, or 6-7 turnovers per hour. Given what I have
read, that doesn't sound like a lot.
<<Maybe go with some 400 vs. 200 gph powerheads>>
Of course, I know it's important to consider what I am keeping,
which is all LPS, mostly Euphylliids, Caulastrea, and various brains
and Fungiids, none of which particularly like very strong current,
correct?
<<Not really...they will appreciate some good flow...but not being
directly blasted. It will likely take some finesse on your part>>
Furthermore, it sounds like the SCWD would seriously reduce the flow
rate of my return, and I don't think I want that.
<<Indeed...maybe as much as 20%>>
But the present, single laminar return is definitely not working. I
was considering running my return into a manifold, but it sounds
like the return wouldn't begin to have enough flow to drive a decent
manifold, so I would need to install a second, closed loop system.
<<Agreed>>
I don't have any intention of taking the tank down to drill
additional holes, so would it be possible to run a closed loop
manifold without drilling?
<<I wouldn't>>
An internally positioned pump?
<<Love those Tunze Stream pumps>>
I can't imagine an overflow would work to drive a manifold!
<<Not recommended>>
How can I achieve decent, non-laminar flow with the present tank
system? Any advice will be appreciated!
<<Why not use a "smaller" return pump (returned over the top) and
use one throughput for the sump drain, and the other throughput to
feed a closed-loop?>>
Jim Jensen
<<Regards, EricR>>
Flow Rates/Tank Turnover/Plumbing Confusion - 08/10/06
Hi,
<<Howdy>>
I used to have a 72Gallon Bow front tank set up but had to take it down. Now
that I am setting it back up after a couple of years I had some questions on
turnover rate and setup.
<<OK>>
I did read "Water Flow, how much is enough?" by Anthony Calfo and found it
really useful. Since my tank is empty I have the option now to drill holes,
plumb the way I want and get a quieter pump. I had a GEN-X 40 that will be my
backup but it was too loud. I was shooting between 10-20X turnover.
<<A lot of water to process through your sump...can be done, but usually
requires some effort to get things flowing well/quieted down>>
But while searching various web sites and talking to people I was advised that I
only need 3-5 times turnover through the sump and I should just add a
closed-loop to make up the rest.
<<This would be my recommendation as well. This flow rate through your sump
will be MUCH easier to manage>>
Some say over skimming or reduce bubbles or noise etc.
<<...?>>
Some said it is not required in the sump or fuge. Is this correct?
<<Is what “correct”? I'm not sure what you are asking here, but if you mean 20x
tank turnover through the sump then no, this is not "required">>
It's been a couple of years so I want to make sure things have not changed.
<<Mmm, the hobby is changing/progressing all the time...but fluid dynamics won't
have changed>>
Also I was going to put on a Sea-Swirl for more water movement. I was not sure
if one in the middle of the tank or two on each end would be better.
<<Will depend in part on how big (flow rate) a Sea-Swirl you opt for, but
generally speaking, one at each end of the tank would be best for good
coverage/flow throughout the tank>>
But they seem to only be on the surface so my thought was one in the middle and
have a Tunze Turbelle Stream Pump lower in the tank (ever use these? Are they
good?).
<<This configuration too could work...and yes, I am familiar/use Stream pumps in
my 375g reef tank...an excellent product in my opinion>>
Based on that I can then drill the back for my overflow in the corner or
middle. I have a lot of options and need some help thinking this through.
<<Glad to proffer my opinions>>
a) One or two sea-swirls?
<<Two>>
b) Placement of overflow?
<<Center...with a minimum 1.5" drain and 1" return>>
c) Sea-Swirl(s), closed-loop, or from sump return?
<<For a high flow rate/water movement...the Sea-Swirls (or Tunzes) or
closed-loop>>
d) Where to put the Tunze (opposite of overflow if in corner? or opposite of
return from sump if not sea-swirl)?
<<Either option is fine>>
e) Where to put the return from sump if not sea-swirl? Corner, middle, opposite
side of overflow?
<<Wherever it is needed to provide/augment flow based on your other
configurations>>
f) Does the closed-loop get water from the overflow? Or do I drill back as
source?
<<The closed-loop pump will need its own "source">>
Or add PVC with holes hanging in the tank. (hope that makes sense)
<<For the closed-loop intake? Mmm, best to drill a bulkhead>>
g) Pump Velocity T4 at 1275GPH - but with 4ft head and 3 - 7 90's depending on
how many returns I have. This is not a pressure-rated pump but according to the
flow rates I would get between 1080 - 900gph depending on the how many 90's I
have. Is this enough?
<<For which application?...it is more than you need for the sump return...likely
not enough for a closed-loop>>
Do I need more and should I have this split to two returns?
Thanks,
Jason
<<There’s much to consider my friend, please have a read through our plumbing
FAQs, here's a good place to start (http://www.wetwebmedia.com/plumbingmarart.htm)
and be sure to follow/read among the links in blue. Regards, EricR>>
Manifold Plumbing 8/8/06
I have a 215G reef ready aquarium that I'm just starting to setup for a
FOWLR and perhaps some hardy soft corals such as mushrooms. I didn't get the
aquarium drilled for a closed loop due to the aquariums location, it is sitting
on a stand that was custom made to fit in with a wet bar, without easy access to
the rear of the tank should a bulkhead or plumbing fixture ever failed. I was
planning to just use powerheads, hidden as much as possible behind rock work,
to make up the additional flow that is needed. I now have an idea to make a
manifold at the aquarium top, such as that in the article by Anthony Calfo, and
using an internal submersible pump instead of an external pump. I'm figuring
that I can hide one larger pump behind the rock work in a corner of the aquarium
that will not be easily viewed. I can make a stand to keep it off the bottom,
and build a cage for it out of black egg crate and gutter guard to help keep
invertebrates safe. Using black pvc piping, I can return the water along the
edge of the overflow making it less visible. This way I will not have
multiple powerheads to hide, and I will only have one pump in the aquarium on
which to perform periodic maintenance and upkeep. The aquarium is situated in a
basement that averages between 66-68 degrees, even during the summer, so I don't
think heat buildup in the tank should be an issue, in fact, I can probably use
the additional heat. I can also run the same pump as I will use to return water
from the sump. This way I can purchase a third pump as a backup for either
of the other two in case one fails. I have been running searches on the
Internet, and your site, trying to find an example of someone using a similar
setup, but I have not had any luck. Can you please let me know if this sounds
like a plausible idea? Thank you very much for your input and suggestions.
<Sounds like it would work out OK. You may consider installing a SCWD Water
Director (Wavemaker) on each of your returns. Less work with a nice wave
making effect. See here. http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?CatalogCustomerNum=&catalognum=&pCatId=10668&prodId=20229&catId=1137745&siteid=6
James (Salty Dog)>
Kevin
Return Manifolds/Horizontal Overflow...Closed-Loop Design - 07/30/06
WWM crew,
<<Hello John>>
Thank you for the wonderful website and wonderful dedication to this
hobby/passion!
<<A collective effort...quite welcome>>
I am researching designs for a new tank. From reading Mr. Calfo's Book of Coral
Propagation and WWM, I very much like Mr. Calfo's ideas of a return manifold and
an internal horizontal overflow.
<<Ah, yes...am familiar with this design>>
Maybe I am just dense, anyway I am having difficultly visualizing how the two
techniques would work together along the back wall of the aquarium.
<<Well, let's see if I can help>>
Would one just not have return nozzles on the back wall, if so it seems as if
this would make the goal of random turbulent water flow more difficult? Could
you please enlighten me?
<<Mmm...the nozzles can be wherever you want them. No need to follow Antoine’s
example to the letter. You can position a couple nozzles at each back corner
and; using ell fittings that are "not" cemented on, swivel these as needed to
direct flow. And do keep in mind here...using a return manifold in this manner
(fed through the sump with a gravity overflow), you will very likely not be able
to push enough water to drive more than a couple/few nozzles with any real
velocity. In my opinion, the return manifold is better suited to a closed-loop
installation if the desire is for vigorous random-turbulent flow>>
Also I was wondering your thoughts on connecting a SCWD to two halves of a
manifold return (i.e.- the manifold would not be a single closed-loop; it would
be two halves).
<<Is doable. But re my previous comment, this is not truly a "closed-loop"
system if you are using the gravity overflow/sump in-line with the manifold>>
I was thinking that this might assist in creating a wave/surge action in the
tank.
<<Possibly...if this is a rather small tank and you use a pump that maximizes
the SCWD's capacity>>
One FAQ seem to suggest that the single closed-loop would be better with or
without a SCWD. Your thoughts?
<<A "continuous" single loop would render the SCWD a moot point as all the
nozzles would still be in play, the SCWD would only be changing the direction
from which the water enters the loop>>
Finally, I am researching tanks and manufacturers. If I implement the above
ideas, I will need to have the back wall of the tank drilled (not the floor
obviously).
<<For Anthony's full-length weir design, yes>>
I can not seem to find any manufacturers who will drill the back wall.
<<Hmm...may have to resort to a "custom" builder>>
Does this have to be a custom job at a glass company or a DIY job for those of
brave heart? Suggestions?
<<Maybe order the tank through your LFS and have "them" customize it for
you. Another thought is to go to the hobby forums (e.g.- RC, reefs.org) and
post a query there re tank manufacturers willing to drill the back of the tank>>
Thank you!
John Bullard
<<Quite welcome. Eric Russell>>
Some Closed-Loop Methodology - 07/26/05
Hello crew and thank you for the support that you guys <<and gals>> give to
the less experience people.
<<Is truly our pleasure to help>>
Let me start by saying that the tank is not set up yet, haven't run for 2 Years
after a few hurricanes here in Florida wiped my whole stock. Yes it has taken me
some time, he-he, but yes I do miss it ).
<<Welcome back>>
Ok, I have an All-Glass 75 gallon that comes standard 1" drain and 3/4" return.
<<Mmm...indeed...>>
I modified it to have a return line of 1" and 1 1/2" drain for more flow.
<<Yay!>>
Also I made a closed-loop manifold 3/4" pipe with 6- 3/4" nozzles with possibly
two more that are capped now. Want to know what size pump I can use for return
and what for closed loop. I had a Mag-7 running for return which my LFS sold
me, but I still think is low for a semi-reef tank.
<<The Mag-7 is plenty big to serve as a return pump here, but if you want more
flow from your return and the increase in noise, bubbles, etc is not an issue,
then a Mag-12 should work without overcoming your 1.5" drain. But plumb a
gate-valve on the output side of the pump to allow for some adjustment as/if
necessary. For the closed-loop pump, figure about 600-700 gph per nozzle
to provide sufficient volume/velocity from each of the 3/4" nozzles. That
means for your current configuration you need a pump that will push (after
figuring head) about 4,200 gph...more if you plan to uncap the other two
nozzles...and is a BUNCH of (too much?) flow for a 75g tank>>
This time I'm going stronger, better lighting, better flow and better
stock. Hard and soft corals and a some exotic fish. I plan or would like to
run a main pump running 24/7 for filtration
and another one only a few hours a day for closed-loop circulation on a timer
with a random setup. This will give a calm time for like feeding and some days
more current.
<<Do be sure you are still providing adequate flow when the loop is "off">>
But I also know that some corals like all time flow or current.
<<Indeed...even "require" it>>
My big question is? Should I use only one pump for everything and plumb and use
the manifold of the closed-loop also as my return or is my presented plan setup
better.
<<Okay, couple things to mention here...1) If you use the closed-loop for your
return then technically it is no longer a "closed-loop". A closed-loop system
is one that is plumbed as a "closed" or sealed unit directly from the tank to
the pump and back, i.e.- no sump. This allows the user to utilize high-flow
pumps with pipe diameters much smaller than those required to handle the same
water flow through a gravity drain...which brings us to the next issue. 2) If
you use the "loop" as a return manifold, there is NO WAY your 1.5" drain will
handle the 4000+ gph needed to effectively drive six 3/4" nozzles to vigorous
flow rates. So my friend, to truly implement a closed-loop you will need
separate pumps for your return and the loop>>
Any exterior pump recommended?
<<Lots of folks use the "Sequence" brand pumps high flow closed-loop
applications>>
The size for each one if two.
<<Have already stated>>
Or just one more powerful.
<<Not if you want a true closed-loop>>
There will be between 4-6 ft of head for the filtration and if going with two
pumps, only about 2 ft of head for the closed-loop.
I was thinking of Dolphin pumps, very quiet and energy efficient, but don't know
what size.
<<Probably in the 5,000 gph range for the closed-loop...but this is an awful lot
of flow for this tank. An option would be to bush down the nozzles to
1/2"...could go with a pump flow rate of about half this or less (300-350 gph
per 1/2" nozzle) and still get sufficient velocity for good water movement, or
simply reduce the "number" of nozzles>>
Other quality good brands are welcome...And thanks for taking the time to advise
all of us...
Pedro Velasquez
<<Happy to assist, and do let me know if I have not been clear here. Eric
Russell>>
Re: Some Closed-Loop Methodology - 07/27/06
Hello again, and thanks for the quick response Eric.
<<Quite welcome>>
I did have in mind that it wasn't going to be a closed-loop anymore if I plumb
the manifold with the return line and use only one pump.
<<Ah, good>>
But I also forgot to mention, that if I go this way, then I can use the 1"
return to be also a drain, and have two drains, one 1 1/2" and the other 1" to
handle more gph.
<<Indeed this is so, but still only a maximum capacity of about 1300-1400
gph. Not near enough to effectively drive six 3/4" nozzles to sufficient
velocity to provide vigorous water movement>>
But maybe this is more complicated adjusting the two drains than just a main
return pump and a second pump for the closed-loop.
<<Not so much complicated as I think separate pumps are more efficient for the
tasks at hand>>
I guess I could reduce the nozzles to 1/2" and use a smaller pump, maybe a 3600
gph. Does that sound much better.
<<Still larger than you would need...but can be attenuated with a gate-valve
plumbed in-line to the tank>>
And again do you think the MAG-7 is capable of handling the flow of 1.5' drain.
<<Not an issue...the drain can only "drain" as much water as the pump "pumps" to
it...up to the capacity of the drain, of course>>
Would only turn it less than 10x.
<<This is where the closed-loop comes to play>>
I would like to turn the water as much as possible.
<<Is not necessary, and usually not even desirable, to push all the tank flow
through the sump>>
I like Mag-Drive pumps, but want to go external (less heat), any more
recommendation is appreciated. Thank you.
<<Iwaki and Gorman-Rupp are both excellent "external" pumps. You should be able
to find a model(s) to suit. EricR>>
Re: Closed-Loop Pump - 07/28/06
Thank you Eric.
<<Quite welcome Pedro>>
The question are gone for now, but I'm sure they will come as soon as I start to
build the system.
Pedro Velasquez
<<Indeed my friend, do let me know if/when I can be of further
assistance. Regards, Eric Russell>>
Closed-Loop Plumbed Through
Overflow? - 07/13/06
Friends at WWM,
<<Greetings Scott>>
What kind of problems would you foresee running a
closed-loop and a sump out of the same overflow box?
<<Hmm...would appreciate a bit more information to wholly
understand what you are attempting. You'll need to plumb
each to its own throughput/drain...you'll need to ensure the
box can handle the volume of water/won't starve the
pumps...and then there's the noise such flow/volume
brings...>>
Thanks,
Scott
<<Regards, EricR>>
<RMF would NOT do this.>
Re: New 90 Gallon Setup... closed loop issues 6/13/06
Hello Bob,
<Scott>
Thanks for your reply.
<Welcome>
Based on the expert advice I have been getting (including yours), I decided to
increase the size of my new system to 135 gallon. This will afford enough space
for external pumps, and hopefully provide more options for (healthy and happy)
fish stocking.
<Great>
Also, I believe this size should provide adequate space for my Centropyge
aurantius (currently in quarantine and eating habits continuing to improve).
Would you concur or should I consider finding another home for this beauty?
<In the wild this is one of the Centropyge species with a large
"territory"... like many cichlids, it can be crowded a bit...>
In discussing the new tank configuration with a LFS, they suggested an
enhancement which I would be very appreciative to hear your thoughts about (I
did not find it addressed in the Circulation FAQ's in WWM and apologize if it
has been addressed before). Anyway, here goes - The current setup would use 2
overflows to feed an Ecosystem 3612 (roughly 1200 GPH per the manufacturer) and
back to the display. The balance circulation (say another 1200 gph) would be
provided by powerheads. My LFS representative suggests doing away with the
powerheads and plumbing a separate loop taking water from the back of the tank
(about half way up the tank) behind the overflow boxes (the boxes would be
equipped with Durso standpipes so that a water column would remain in them). The
lines would be joined together to feed a parallel external pump and back to the
display via 2-3 additional bulkheads located at the lower portion of the tank.
<Sounds like a plan>
I like the idea because it eliminates the "issues" with powerheads such as
heat generation, exposed intakes, etc., but am wondering if we are drilling too
many holes in the back of the tank. Would you have any thoughts to share on
this?
<More holes can lead to more potential problems... if it were me/mine, I
would not cut these through-puts quite so low... "just in case"... But
near/closer toward the upper surface... not too close though, to prevent loss of
water during change-outs>
Thanks again for your help on this project.
Scott
<Glad to share. Bob Fenner>
Overflow Questions 6/1/06
Hello Bob and the WWMC,
<James with you today.>
I hope all is well and Hawaii was fascinating (jealous).
<Talking for Bob, Hawaii is always fascinating, something different on every
dive, correct, Bob?> <<Mmm, yes, but back in sunny southern Cal. now>>
I am starting to plumb my 50 gallon sump and refugium to my 150 gallon all
glass tank and looking for some expert advice.
I will make this quick because I know you are all very busy.
Is it possible to connect three separate hang on overflows (1) 900 gph and (2)
1400 gph to one central 3" drain pipe with vent?
<Yes, a three inch drain will handle this, but why on earth do you need that
much flow for a 150 gallon tank? Problem is, if the
pump is not sized close to the gpm of the overflows, you will always have
problems with air in the "U" tubes. So, at least a 3200 gpm
pump would be needed...That's going to be an awful lot of water moving in your
tank unless you are trying to establish a tsunami biotope. Ten to fifteen times
the tank volume is sufficient. You would be well over 20 times. Tell the fish
to hang on for dear life.>
The over flows planned positions are... a 1400 gph at each end of the tank
with the 900 gph in the center.
Thank you again for your time,
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Mark
Re: Overflow Questions 6/1/06
Hello Crew and James,
<Hello Mark>
Thanks for the quick response. <You're welcome.> Hopefully these answers to your
questions help clear up what I am trying to achieve.
The return pump will be a Mag Drive 36 external , with a 1" schedule 80 pipe
(true 1" I.D.) return to a manifold system.
The manifold will have 8 outlets, if my calculations are correct I have 14 feet
of head loss, total loss of 4.86 psi. Taking this into account, this leaves 852
gph of return divided by the 8 outlets, which equals 106 gph at each nozzle.
If you think it is necessary, I can branch off the return line and with another
gate valve control the flow back into the refugium or skimmer chamber. Sump flow
is as follows, skimmer, 3 baffles, refugium, 3 baffles, return.
<A bit more clearer, Mark. Think you should be fine here. Do employ a gate
valve at the pump to allow you to throttle down if necessary. A return line
back to the pump shouldn't be necessary. If you want to double check your
calculations, here is a link for you. http://www.reefcentral.com/calc/hlc2.php
James (Salty Dog)>
Thanks Again for your time.
<You're welcome>
Mark
Re: sponge filter in QT tank (saltwater)... and manifold pb 5/27/06
Great, thanks for the reply! Sounds like I should cut back on total amount
I'm feeding or if I go with a Copper band B/F, I should look at trading him back
in or leaving him in the 125 gal reef (if I get lucky and he doesn't eat too
much of my corals).
I have another question if I may, I put in a closed loop system in my 125 gal.
(hooked up to a MAG12) I plumbed a manifold around the top of the tank with 8
outlets for lots of options on water flow direction. Would I be better off
blocking off half of them so I get stronger water flow thus more turbulent
action in the tank VS gentle flow out of all 8 outlets?
Thanks again, Mike
<Mmm, I'd get some slip plugs (insert, sans solvent) and push these in and
see... may take pliers to extract... Bob Fenner>
Refugium plumbing question 4/18/06
Hi Crew-
<Ed>
I'm a bit confused about the best way to plumb a refugium, sump and
closed circuit return loop.
<Lots posted re on WWM... and lots to consider... many "variations" on
themes...>
I'm planning on setting up a 90 G Oceanic Systems "Tech Series" Tank with two
return overflows and two Megaflow accessory kits. The system will be designed to ultimately house SPS, LPS, Clams, Mandarin dragonets and Wrasses.
<Not altogether compatible as you're likely aware>
To ensure that all are well fed I would like to run a RDP vegetable refugium
with Chaetomorpha macroalgae and a 4" DSB so that I can grow pods.
Reef Invertebrates, Calfo/Fenner has an illustration for a Downstream Refugium
on Page 53. If I understand correctly the refugium should have a water
flow of 5 to 10 times tank turnover. This would be significantly lower than
the 14 time turnover I had planned for the Calfo designed Closed Loop
illustrated on the WetWeb site.
How can I marry these two seemingly contrary requirements?
<Two separate pumps, sets of plumbing... Bob Fenner>
Many thanks,
Ed
Re: Refugium, closed manifold recirc. plumbing question, reef stkg.
- 04/19/06
Dear Bob:
<Ed>
Thanks for your personal reply. Perhaps I should have been more specific in my
selection of livestock. It was my understanding that SPS, Clams and a
limited number of well chosen LPS corals could be housed together and that
Mandarin dragonets and Rainbow/Flasher/Fairy wrasses were compatible. Am I
wrong?
<Mmm, somewhat right and wrong... there are always induced problems with the mix
of any/all Cnidarian species. Some much more grievous than others, and steps
that can/have to be taken to alleviate these iatrogenic difficulties. Many LPS
(an entirely arbitrary designation btw for many purposes), will consume
dragonets... some can/will sting tridacnids...>
I've been reading everything I could on WetWeb and other sources on fuges but
can't seem to find a scheme for plumbing these two separately.
<Mmm, take them "one at a time"... entirely separate pumps, plumbing for each...
You don't want to tie them together>
I don't expect you to do my work for me but if you are aware of a schematic
for such a system I would appreciate being directed to it.
Complex plumbing issues are beyond my present level of expertise.
As always I greatly appreciate your work.
Best regards,
Ed
<Please peruse here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/marsetupindex2.htm
Take your time, record good notes... read the files as they appear of interest,
from the top, front to the bottom, right... down and across... The indices have
been arranged by me in this order with purpose. Bob Fenner>
Re: Marine Set-Up/Return Circulation Concept ...
reefgeek cont. 4/8/06
Aloha WWM Crew!!!!!, <Hello John, James here today.>
"Reef Geek in training" here. Great site by the way...lots of great
ideas and pics!!!...thanks a lot. <You're welcome.> I have always
referred to your site for great info. I have scoured your site
looking for some answers to my circulation concept detailed below,
unfortunately without success. I have kept a FO tank for quite a
few years and now am making the "jump" into a reef. I'm taking my
time and doing a lot of research (maybe too much)....<Can never be
too much.> I learned that lesson from keeping my marine tank. I was
hoping you might be able to give me your opinion on a return system
I've planned and diagramed out. I have a 75 gallon tank 48 x 18 x
20. I know circulation needs to be a lot stronger than I'm
accustomed to, along with a lot of other things. I am trying to
ensure there are to be no "Dead Spots" with regards to circulation,
especially behind the reef itself where it meets the glass. <A good
idea.> I have an "in wall" set up for my tank giving the "window
effect" so the traditional rear reef wall reef won't work for
me. My aquascape is going to have 2 slopes on either side of the
tank....meeting in the middle. I'm just more concerned if this will
work and be worth my time, effort and $$. I know the trend is to do
a separate closed loop system but I'm really trying to stay away
from that concept. I'm extremely limited on cabinet space and due
to the "in wall" set up and plumbing it would be a nightmare if not
impossible. My thinking is I'd really hate to see the return flow
from my main return pump connected to my sump just "go to
waste"........so to speak......by simply pumping it back into the
display tank arbitrarily. Why not take that flow and by directing
to certain areas within the tank thereby putting it to good use.
<Indeed!> Anyways, here's my plan. As of right now my plans are to
use 2 Maxijet MP900 "Tunzean Like" mod.s located on either side of
the tank pointed at each other directing flow side to side, cycling
on a Chauvet timer. I know...bad idea with the timer cuz it will
shorten the life of the pumps, but I really like the "waving effect"
it the timer will produce with the corals so its worth prematurely
replacing the pumps at a cost of 30 bucks. <MaxiJets are one of the
few that work well with wave making timers. Should last quite some
time.> From my return standpipe I would construct either out of pvc
and/or loc-line a return system with "down tubes" placed behind each
reef wall as well as nozzles directing return flow from front to
back....directly opposite to the flow of the MaxiJets for a lot of
turbulence. Here's my diagram.
|
|
|
|
Re: Marine Set-Up/Return Circulation Concept
4/9/06
James, <John>
Thanks for the reply!!....from what you've said...I think I'm gonna move
forward with this. I do have one more "curve ball" to throw your way. I
have been doing some research on the SCWD. I'm sure you are familiar with
this device...just in case........ www.2iqventures.com
I'm tempted to install one of these at the top of my return stand pipe and
route loc-line and/or PVC in 2 separate directions (equi-distant in length
from the SCWD) still incorporating the "down tubes". The SCWD would now
allow
me to direct nozzles both front to back and back to front in an oscillating
flow pattern....I like that!!!! Do you see any issues with this? <No, give
it a try, is a nice unit.>
Also, correct me if I'm wrong here....isn't one of the goals of a proper
operating return system to have the flow rate of the overflow match the flow
rate back into the tank as closely as possible? <Ideally, the overflow
should be capable of handling a little more flow than the pump can produce,
eliminates fiddling with gate valves.> If this is correct, then my flow rate
at the top of the stand pipe being approx 1150 gph even with the SCWD and
all the T and L fittings in line should still be pretty strong...thinking
around 1000 gph. I'm not really sure of the flow rate of my overflow (1 inch
PVC stand pipe). I think its approx 850 - 900 gph. If this is true I will
need to tweak my gate valve to have them match.......make sense? <Yes.>
Lastly, if this is a viable concept.....then why even bother with a closed
loop system and it's extra costs?.. i.e.: extra pump and it's associated
monthly electrical bill. <Closed loop offers a little more versatility and a
cleaner look in the tank. Some aquarists look for aesthetics, not wanting
all this stuff in the view. Myself, I prefer the wave making effect, believe
the corals react better to this concept. My galaxy coral loves it, very
nice to watch the tentacles shift back and forth.>
Thanks for the calculator...going there now to do some math.
Again, thanks for all the help. <You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
John
|
Inlet for closed loop manifold - 04/05/2006
Good afternoon WWM crew.
<Trevor>
I am currently in the planning stages of engineering a closed loop manifold
for my 180 gallon AGA. Through your extensive FAQ, which is truly
priceless, I believe I can successfully generate the manifold component and
also appropriately "size" the pump for the desired flow rate in the display
tank relative to head, horizontal run, elbows, tees nozzles.
<Yay!>
What I have not been able to clearly extract out of this wealth of
information is the appropriate inlet size relative to desired flow rates in
the display tank. I have come across information on drain rates through
bulkheads: ~ 300 gph, 750 gph, 1000 gph for 1", 1.5", 2" bulkheads
respectively. Do these aforementioned numbers remain the same if one is
"attempting" to aggressively pull water through the inlet with a pump or are
they based on a flow rate due to gravity's "pull" alone (my instincts tell
me that if most inputs and outputs on external pumps are 1" that a
1"inlet in the display tank should be able to handle whatever the pump is
rated ... but I have been wrong before and I am sure I will be again)?
<Can't address the last adequately (is a great question/statement), but you
are correct in questioning the intake sizes as stated if there is any
restriction/vacuum consideration... that is to state, these diameters are
idealized for no such restriction, including intake screening>
If I have a 2" inlet in my display plumbed directly to the input of a pump
of infinite flow rate what would be the maximum flow rate that could be
produce, for simplicity, at the output of the pump (I am assuming at some
point the 2" inlet has to limit the pumps ability to intake water at a
greater flow rate ....
<Let's stop here: about 800-1000 gph...>
or am I wrong and my flow rate is actually infinite gph)?
<Ah, no. There are practical limitations, induced drag, sp3 hybridization,
Brownian effects, affinities of water to contend with>
I want to maximize the flow rate of my closed loop manifold using a 2" inlet
from the display plumbed directly to an external pump, but I do not know
what I can expect to maximally pull through the 2" intake.
<The above values are about it in practical terms... one can (of course)
pull/push more through a two inch diameter line, but there are other
considerations, principally screening issues, that need to be addressed>
Thank you in advance for the sharing of your knowledge and experience,
again, it is truly appreciated. Trevor
<Is this clear? You want to avoid "sucking up livestock", cavitation,
drawing in air... Bob Fenner>
Re: inlet for closed loop manifold 4/7/06
Bob,
<Trevor>
Thank you for your time in the reply to my question. And as it seems standard
in the FAQ's forum, questions beget questions.
<Along with some clarity, resolution hopefully>
Upon reflection I may have mislead you in my statement about appropriately
sizing my external pump for my closed loop manifold in one area ... adjustment
for static
head. In reading through Dr. Sanjay Joshi et alt. featured article "An
engineering view of aquarium systems design: pumps and plumbing" they
mention at the end of the article that "a closed recirculation loop would have
zero static head". I do understand how this could be if an individual
were to use a pump on the same horizontal plane as the recirculation loop.
In designing my closed loop manifold, with your latest input, I feel that to I
am now going to need to "pull" from three 2" inlets plumbing directly
to my external pump to get the desired flow rate from my closed loop
manifold. This added plumbing will be lowering my external pump from the
display water line by approximately four feet. In my limited, albeit improving,
knowledge of plumbing systems, I would be convinced this should
be incorporated in my equation for total dynamic head. Is this appropriate
thinking, and if yes how have I misinterpreted Dr. Sanjay Joshi et alt.
statement which would seem to contradict my aforementioned thought.
<Mmm, don't know if I'm following you... just yet. But with the lines filled, no
apparent low-pressure at the intake to the pump volute you should be fine here>
I feel like the carrot is dangling right in front of me when looking through the
FAQ's from 1/06 but again but I am just unable to decipher the simplest of
things .... "yep"!
Copied from FAQ on 1-6-2006:
I've looked at the data for the Sequence Reeflo Hammerhead (1 1/2" inlet/outlet)
and see that the flow is 5400 GPH @ 5' head. Since this is a
closed system, am I correct in assuming the head will only be from the plumbing
or do I still have to consider the static head (5' from the pump
to the top of the tank) as well?
<<Yep...and add a foot of head to that for about every 10 feet of horizontal run
and again for each elbow/turn.>>
Is that "yep", he does need to take into account the five feet when calculating
total dynamic head because it is a closed system. Or is it
"yep" he does need to take the five feet into account when calculating total
dynamic head in his closed loop manifold.
<Am guessing, but I think the responder is referring to "induced drag" not
really "head" per se>
Is pulling from three 2" inlets drilled into the back of my tank for my closed
loop manifold an appropriate design. I am attempting to supply an
external pump that will drive 2400-3000gph out of my manifold.
<This is a bunch of water/flow... to move through a manifold/aquarium...>
I will also be using two of the bottom pre-drilled holes in my "reef ready 180
AGA" (ironic ... reef ready, yet I am looking at drilling?!!)
<Yes. Necessary with this flow/profile>
as returns from my 75 gal sump/refugium and the other two as drains into my
sump/refugium (refugium turnover will be 4-6x). The return form the
sump/refugium will be generating another 1000-1200 gph for a total display
circulation 3400-4200gph when calculated with manifold. I am trying to
maximize circulation in attempts to give appropriate care to SPS corals.
<You'll do fine>
Am I making my display into Swiss cheese or will it remain structurally sound in
the above scenario?
<? You'll do fine methinks...>
Or would you it be more appropriate to replace an inlet with an internal pump to
maintain above values?
<I would skip on the internal pump/s at this point... Look into the Tunze line
later if you see such a need>
I would like to avoid the later, but I do not know if it is possible.
<Is>
Thank you and all the WWM crew again in advance for all your patience in sharing
your knowledge with all who ask.
<Mmm, I would utilize a "throttling mechanism" on the discharge side of your
ext. pump for the closed-loop here... ideally an electronic-electrical one to
save energy... that will allow you to adjust flow/pressure... Take care to
situate your through-puts/drains sufficiently below water surface level to avoid
cavitation, allow for screening, directing (perhaps thread by slip street
els...). Bob Fenner>
Return Manifold, Pumps...General System Plumbing - 03/11/2006
I was reading up on this method to get better flow but just had a few
specific questions.
<As vague as possible, please.>
I have an 80 gallon reef tank and I hate the powerheads. I have a return from my
fuge that is probably pushing 250-300 gph. I want to build a closed loop system
to eliminate the phs.
<Do you want a true "closed loop", or simply a return loop?>
My tank is not drilled but it has a piece of glass at the top of the tank under
the canopy that I can rest items on.
<Better things to "fix" this in place.>
My idea is to build a loop system with 4- 6 outlets with a pump that is rated
for around 1000 gph but not have the pump submersed under the water. Is this
possible and what are the cons of this system.
<Quite possible. This is my preferred method of returning water to the tank.>
Also what pumps that are available would be the best choice for my idea.
<A shorter list to say which aren't...>
Thanks for all of your help and your knowledge is invaluable to us novice
reefers.
Thanks
Dustin
<It's a lot to read I know, but I would go through our FAQ's until it hurts. A
lot of different angles to take into account, but once you understand what not
to do, the what to do makes perfect sense. Have you read the Calfo article re
this? Grabs some toothpicks, prop open those lids, and let the coffee flow. -
Josh>
Re: Return Manifold, Pumps...General System Plumbing - 03/14/2006
Thanks, I bought some pvc and started trying to negotiate all of the turns
and filter and overflow and I think that it will end up being a pain rather than
beneficial.
<Hmm...Shouldn't be that bad.>
I think I am just going to buy some new powerheads that actually get the job
done.
<If you hated them before, this probably won't change. But...>
Thanks again.
<Sure Dustin. - Josh>
Return manifold 3/11/06
Hello Bob and the WWM Crew, I like to thank you again for all the expert
advice. Been doing quite a bit of research on your site and have
learned something new every time. Tons of information, and plenty of new
ideas.
<<Adam Here today. Glad you have benefited!!>>
Please find attached a drawing for (2) return manifolds I plan on
installing in my 150 gallon salt tank. I am using (2) because the center
brace (1 of 3 braces) is wider than the tank edging and sits below the
water level, this is the only way I can think of to install the units
without constructing them inside the operating tank.
<<This is fine... creativity is great! I am concerned that the brace
sits below the water level, though. It sounds like the water level
might be too high.>>
Each unit will be powered by its own mag 18 pump located in my 55 gallon
sump/ refugium below the tank. The riser pipe with a 5' head will be 1"
pvc, connected to the pump via a short section of vinyl tubing, a true
union ball valve will be installed for flow adjustment and as a quick
shut off in case of a emergency.
<<All sounds good, but glue and threads are safer than flex tubing and
hose clamps if possible.>>
At the top of the tank (2) 1" pvc-45 degree elbows with a spacer in
between, will bring the feed pipe over the lip of the tank to a 1" fpt x
fpt tee, from there the pvc will be reduced down to 1/2" pvc by a 1"mpt
x 1/2 spt reducer, from there 1/2" pvc pipe will connect to the tees and
jets, 5 total in each manifold. If I figured this right, my total loss
is 9.84 feet of head or 4.25 psi, with a flow rate of 847gph for each
manifold.
Ok time for the questions,
1. Is this enough gph per manifold, or should I go to a mag 24 pump?
<<I am already concerned about your drains or overflow handling two mag
18's. Your flow of about 190gph per nozzle (847/5) may be a bit
low. You might consider going down to four nozzles.>>
2. Will the flatten 1/2" nipple work or should I look into something
else?
<<Should work great!!>>
Any suggestions or comments will be greatly appreciated, Thanks again,
Mark
<<My only other suggestion is to be sure that your drains can handle the
flow of the pumps you are planning on using. Best Regards. AdamC.>
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Understanding Closed-Loop Plumbing - 03/08/06
Hi all,
<<Hello>>
As per Anthony's suggestion, I am in the process of putting together a closed
loop system for my 110 reef tank.
<<Great!>>
The tank is drilled for the main overflow to the sump and for the loop, I will
be using an external magnetic drive pump.
<<Okay>>
I was just starting to wonder how I am going to get water into it? I have
looked around, on the web, and the best I can gather is that just like a
canister filter would work, I will plumb with pvc up to the tank to suck water
out
<<Mmm no, not "suck"...you need to plumb so water will "flood" the pump...as if
through a bulkhead in the back/side of the tank.>>
I guess I will need to use some sort of screen at the intake correct?
<<A bulkhead screen, yes.>>
The returns will be a manifold of sorts around the perimeter with flex nozzles
and valves for control. Once plumbed up, do you just plug it in?
<<Yep>>
I remember from my freshwater days, needing to start the siphon on canister
filters.....does that need to be done here?...or like I said, just plug her in
and let her rip?
<<No siphon, like I explained...you must flood the pump. If you read through
our FAQs on closed-loops this is/will all be explained.>>
Secondly, is there a concern, for example like with your sump plumbing (overflow
) in the event of a power outage? It would seem not, as like in a canister
filter, everything is all sealed up? Is this correct.
<<Yes, but a "closed-loop" is not plumbed through the sump...please have a look
here (http://www.wetwebmedia.com/pbretfaq3.htm)
and among the indices in blue. Regards, EricR>>
Understanding Closed-Loop Plumbing II - 03/09/06
Thanks, but since drilling is no possible for me to install a bulkhead,
can't I plumb an over the tank? Just like one would with an Eheim or Fluval
canister?
<<But you are not plumbing a "canister"...how will you prime the pump?...and if
you lose siphon you will likely lose the pump (burn-out).>>
I saw that link on Melev's reef and that seems to be what he had done.
<<Are we still talking about a closed-loop? I'm not familiar with the
system/method you speak of but if you think it might work, give it a try.>>
If so, how does one get the water to start flowing into the pump.
<<Indeed, how?>>
If I remember correctly, from my days of using Fluvals, one blows into the
output end to start a siphon on the input end.
<<Mmm, maybe...I just fill the canister with water and fire it up.>>
I had planned on using a Blue line or GenX pump at about 1100 gph split into two
returns and possibly reducing the returns from 3/4" to 1/2" in order to increase
velocity and turbulence. There is a main return pushing about 1200 gph straight
through a 3/4 " return. What happens in the event of a power failure with a
closed-loop this way?
<<If plumbed as a true closed-loop...nothing.>>
BTW, the link you gave me did not work.
<<Hmm, just gave it a try, works for me. Please try a Google search from our
home page re "closed-loop". Regards, EricR>>
Closed-Loop Manifold Design - 03/06/06
Hi-
<<Hello>>
I'm researching my first Aquarium (will be reef with an emphasis on SPS, LPS and
Clams and eventually a few fish).
<<Okay>>
I find WetWebMedia invaluable.
<<Thanks...me too!>>
I'm pretty settled on a 90 gallon tank and a 22 gallon sump with about 110 lb.
of LR and a 4 inch oolithic <<or maybe oolitic>> sand bed.
Would like to shoot for 14-15 times water flow and have definitely decided on
the Water Return Manifold shown in Anthony Calfo's article.
<<Ahh...excellent>>
I am a bit confused however, and hope you can straighten me out.
<<Uh oh...be careful what you ask for <grin>.>>
The article states "...we need a dedicated supply of water here. Obey the
manufacturer's recommendations for line size." Is Anthony referring to the pump
manufacturer's recommendations for line size?
<<Yes>>
Would that be different from the pump outlet size?
<<Unless otherwise stated by the manufacturer, you are usually safe to match
your pipe size the inlet/outlet sizes.>>
I am considering using an Iwaki MD70RLT and the outlet is one inch.
<<Matching pipe to outlet size is fine for these pumps.>>
I like his ideas for finessing the flow with valves and nozzles, especially
since my reef will change significantly as the corals grow.
<<Indeed>>
He mentions using "Flexible Ball-Socket Joint Tubing." and that it can be
connected to PVC. Is that Loc Line?
<<Yep>>
Anthony goes on to write "home aquariums of a couple of hundred gallons or less
will likely use 1" or 3/4" pipe".
<<Mmm...or even 1/2" to maximize water velocity.>>
Loc-Line's largest parts are 3/4 inch and there are no T connectors available in
3/4 inch. There are plenty of valves and Nozzles available in 3/4. So what I'm
really asking is can a Iwaki MD70RLT with a 1" outlet be used to deliver water
to my tank though 3/4" Loc-Line hose and can the hose be T-d
with PVC?
<<Yes it can. Likely you will need to bush the outlets down to 3/4" (or even
1/2") anyway to provide enough water velocity.>>
And most importantly will it do the necessary job.
<<Yes...if you have done all your homework and configured it correctly <G>.>>
Thank you for your patience.
Ed
<<A pleasure to assist Ed. Regards, EricR>>
Closed Loop Confusion - 02/11/06
Hi crew,
<<Hi Linda>>
I tried to send this email before but was getting error messages. I have not
gotten a reply yet so I thought I'd resend my question. My apologies if you
have already received it!
<<Mmm nope, don't believe we did.>>
I recently asked Bob a question regarding a closed circ system. I was having
noise problems from my pump and design.
<<A common issue.>>
I had an intake (1" PVC) go up and over the tank, but had a tee on the top with
a cap (so I could clean the tube easily). Bob suggested getting rid of the tee
in the intake PVC and try a smaller pump.
<<Okey Dokey>>
So I've been researching WWM for pump selection and came across several posts
regarding closed-loop systems (I didn't know it had a name before :).
<<Hee!>>
Now I am confused!
<<Ruh roh>>
Many answers said to NEVER use an over-the-tank intake siphon (which is what I
assume my design is).
<<Does sound like, yes.>>
However, Bob didn't seem concerned about my design, and other posts suggest
using one. Drilling isn't an option and I'm doing this because of heat issues
with the power heads so I wanted to use an external pump.
<<I see>>
So, two questions (okay, three):
Should I use my planned intake?
<<Sure>>
Are there any better options?
<<From what you just told me...doesn't seem to be.>>
I want to get an Iwaki pump - what size would work best? (I know you get this
question a lot, but I still am at a loss)
<<A good choice (Iwaki)... But how much water do you need/want to move? How
much "head" will you have to overcome? Shoot for something that will give you a
minimum of 10x the tank's volume. But you'll also have to consider the design
of your loop (angles, number/size of your outlets).>>
FYI - my original plan was a 1" intake going up over tank and down to a 1" on
the pump. Return is 1" flexible tubing into a 3/4" PVC "network" of 3 tees up
the back of tank with 2 lock-line nozzles on each (6 nozzles total). (I already
had the network).
<<Are these 3/4" nozzles? I'll assume so for now. Okay...you will ne |
